Just some advice for the new one. Queen inject and creep tumor should be switched. The tumor hotkey is far more efficient, but inject is used a lot more. Personally as a Zerg player I changed space bar back to the base cam because using caps lock doesn't work well with my hand. I usually use shift while injecting with base cam so caps lock doesn't work very well for me. I really like the feel of using D->S->S... while hitting space with thumb :D
On May 05 2012 04:22 JaKaTaK wrote: I am going to respond to your post in line (the bold is me) I really appreciate your opinion, and you should know, that I am a very difficult person to offend, I am just very honest and direct, I apologize for any inaccuracies in the OP or else where, promise that they were unintentional, and will correct them.
Firstly, it makes it very hard to reply to what you have said when you choose this method of replying, adding in bold lines here and there. Ill try to reply to the stuff you have said, as it definitely seems like you are missing the point of why i mention some things, or perhaps you are just taking meaning from my statements that isnt there.
Ok, so first off - you are saying that just because i used a couple of broad terms in my opening paragraph that i am somehow acting hypocritical, or using hypocritical language. Im sorry mate, but it doesnt take much thought to conclude that when i say "The true logical answer to all this is that people should tailor their own hotkey setup to -their own hand- and -their own movements/positioning-" it is basically, fundamentally rooted in logic. If somebody walked up to you and stated that "When the intended purpose is to wear them, it is logical to buy a pair of gloves that fit your hands." could you possibly argue the point? I doubt it. I go on to state that a true "Be all and end all" hotkey guide should include tailoring the hotkey setup to suit your own hand. How can you argue this? Or even consider it to be hypocritical. Its true that i said a "Be all and end all" hotkey guide shouldnt be like your guide, and apart from being worded slightly too forwardly i dont see an issue with that either. I certainly didnt say that my own setup was any better which would be the requirement for me to be acting hypocritical. And surely you arent claiming that your hotkey guide is indeed the best possible thing out there for everybody at the moment, oh sh*t, you are. Now -that- is the epitome of presumptuous mate, all i stated was a simple fact - that hotkey setups need to be tailored for the hand that uses them. This isnt presumptuousness, its fact. Even after agreeing on the hand issue, it still says in the OP that your guide is the most efficient out there, when it should read "This is the most efficient setup i have found for my own hand dimensions and movement patterns, hopefully it fits yours too." And then accurate measurements of your hand would be .. handy. So people can see if its even worth trying, they could have a hand so different to yours that it just isnt worth even bothering.
You also claimed that my text gave you the impression that i thought i had the "Be all and end all conclusion" to all of this. If you go back and read what i wrote i think you'll find that i never once said my hotkey setup was any better, or that i knew the conclusive way to go about putting together the guide. In fact, my whole damn point is that we dont know how to find an acceptable conclusion to this yet because not enough analysis has been done, and the variables involved (Hand size, Race, Etc..) make it so that one persons findings dont necessarily correlate with another persons findings. Analysis is needed.
Also, just because im stating some of the root principles that should guide a good hotkey creation instructional, it doesnt mean that im somehow implying you missed them in your original post. It seems like you think that just because i mention some theory im also implying that you didnt know or werent informed of said theory. And dude, its great that you highlighted some of these principles in your post - it just strikes me as completely odd that you can be considering ergonomics and economy of motion without considering the size of the hand that is using the keyboard. The reason i was bringing this up was to highlight that perhaps if more time is spent figuring out the guiding principles in the beginning we can move forward with everything accounted for. For instance, surely you dont think you know the 3 races well enough to decide on your own that a separate setup isnt needed for each race. Do you play random? If so, how do you presume to know all 3 races well enough to make that decision? Do you not play random? If so, how do you presume to know all 3 races well enough to make that decision? Do you see my point? You are asking people to trust that you have the most efficient setup out there for -them-, when i honestly didnt even see you mention your league in the OP.
Jeeze, trying to get through this.. Ok, so you also mentioned "this is a logical contradiction. You say that this layout is difficult to learn; you say that i am attracting players who are looking for an easy way to get better "
Both of the statements are correct, the layout is difficult to learn because it isnt as intuitive as say Grid or even Standard with its Alphabet arrangement (Im talking about new players here). Learning how to use the hotkeys initially is a rote learning process, made easier through visual aid/patterning (grid) or the ability to automatically guess a units hotkey due to the starting characters of its name (standard). Those two are intuitive systems, made to be easily understandable and easy to get started with. Your setup is obviously harder to learn initially than Grid and Standard, and a really new player has alot more important things to worry about than trying to learn their hotkeys when none of the names or visual positions in command pane relate to any of the corresponding keys. A really new player just needs control groups on 1 - 0 and a hotkey set that they can memorize quickly and easily. They can then atleast play the game a bit and start to get a feel for macroing and mechanics before diving into a complicated pool of hotkeys that are all right ontop of eachother, control groups that dont run linear and quick combinations of keystrokes that would be efficient if their brain was even at the stage where they knew what commands they needed to get out. I almost guarantee that giving a completely new player this setup to try and jumpstart their career will only delay their mental progression as they get annoyed at not being able to easily control the game in the early stages of learning. Now regarding the players who are looking for an easy way to get better, thats just a given - making your hotkey setup more efficient is one of the simplest ways to increase your overall SC2 ability and when the goldies read "If there is a more efficient hotkey setup out there, i cant find it" images of themselves performing multipronged attacks against MKP while eating a pizza instantly spring to their mind. To explain it as a statement, Your hotkey setup is difficult to learn (rote learn and memorize, commit to muscle memory - especially compared to Std and Grid), but its still an easy way to become better at SC2. This is obviously because SC2 is a complex game that requires dedication and solid practice to increase your skill level - compared to ironing out small kinks in your macro over time or learning all the proper reactions for each matchup, learning a new efficient hotkey setup is a walk in the park. All you need do is practice against the AI for enough games to feel comfortable using it, and done. Instant % increase in your efficiency. It may take abit longer to be sure you have everything re-committed to muscle memory, but compared to the increase in efficiency it is quite worth it. So you see, your hotkey setup is hard to learn, but learning it is an easy way to get better at SC2 - no logical contradiction, only a fairly straight forward statement.
With regards to "you really ought to look at the Darkgrid post by FoxyMayhem, he does a much more thorough job of explaining why its more efficient"
I was actually mentioning off the top of my head ways to record potentially useful data we could use when trying to ascertain which tweaks are actually more efficient than others. Its pretty simple and logical to explain why a semi-grid is a good idea, but there are still many ways to make a semi-grid layout and perhaps some real data recorded in a fairly controlled situation would actually give us.. well, an idea on how to proceed that is founded more in science than imagination. Its all good to say "This is a Semi-Grid layout, its good for these reasons." but what makes it the best possible semi-grid layout. You can get so far with theory, but at some point actually testing the difference that tweaks make in your play will need to be done to come up with an informed answer (Testing with Data, not 'feeling' Btw). This was actually the point i was trying to make, so once again its amusing how you failed to even see what i was trying to say, instead assuming that i was.. what? I dont even know. I sure as hell wasnt trying to explain how a semi-grid system works, what i was doing was thinking of ways that these claims about efficiency could actually be -tested-, especially once we get to the point where we are figuring out the tiny niggling changes that make the project complete. (Im obviously talking about a fully fledged project here, i dont expect your guide to get to that stage of attention to detail)
And finally, the most stupid of the lot:
Anyway, i know im passionate and my language can sometimes be "blunt inaccurate and exaggerated" << JaKaTaK Addition but i think you will find
Seriously mate, have a read and i think you will realise that nothing i have said is inaccurate or really even exaggerated, perhaps my meaning was misunderstood by you, but thats about it. In a game where nerfing a buildings construction time by a few seconds makes a huge difference you cant really exaggerate attention to detail - Especially when it comes to mechanics. And Blunt? Whatever, Maybe sometimes people need abit of blunt or they just completely miss the point, like you still managed to do with most of the things i said. Sorry to be blunt mate, but claiming your hotkey set up is the most efficient out there is, well, stupid. You could atleast -mention- the fact that this is your opinion and suited to YOU, not the rest of the world. I mean come on dude, its just a complete joke that you would claim your setup is the most efficient out there for everybody and it really doesnt give a very good first impression of your guide (Not to anybody with any real knowledge of SC2 anyway, because they will instantly ask you what hand size you are and take your guide with a grain of salt as a result. Because you havent taken the time to address all of the basic, fundamental variables like hand size and race, how the hell can any skilled player trust that you have spent the appropriate time figuring out the rest. The simple answer is they cant. Even if they could, the fact that you ignored such large variables in the beginning stages of this project mean that every decision made thereafter has been impacted by the negligence. Its all been tainted, tainted black and blue with images of gross neglect and suffering (imagine third world babies crawling painstakingly towards a loaf of bread, as they get within grasping distance the loaf disappears, only to reappear 10 meters away). Now -that- is an exaggeration mate, just in case an example was required. Honestly, at the end of the day it all depends what you are trying to aim for bud, but for you it seems like the sky is the limit. Well, you wont climb very far with your left shoelace untied, and you cant retie it once your on the ladder - so maybe you should make sure you account for everything before you start the climb, id hate for you to drop any of the people you are trying to carry upwards because their hand slipped out of yours (Maybe their hand was too small ). Im hoping to see a higher level of thoroughness of planning in this webshow you are considering starting (once again, not trying to offend, its just how i feel), especially in terms of making sure you are 100% definitely passing on the best information you can gather (Maybe use someone elses opinion and second opinion, a pro or two, to gauge whether or not the conclusions you came up with are indeed correct and true to the current metagame, this goes double if you are actually stating that something is "The" way to go). Metagame discussion would be a great aspect of the show, but you really need to find knowledgeable guests and be 100% sure you know exactly what you are talking about or you run the risk of being absolutely crucified in your stream chat, on reddit and on here.
Oh and i almost forgot -
EDIT: Last word was "race" not "races", editted as some of you sleep with multiple teams.. like a rabid bandicoot, no loyalty..
are you calling people born with sexual attraction to different races and sexes rabid bandicoots?,..is this a racial joke? << JaKaTaK Addition
... I changed race to 'races' because some people use more than 1 race.., sleeping with multiple teams is merely a joke metaphor to mean exactly that, the person uses more than 1 race. Rabit Bandicoots? Joke, of course. And the Loyalty part? Well, if you got the beginning you would have gotten that - people who use more than one race have no definitive loyalty towards any particular race, pretty straight forward.
The fact that you asked me if i was making a racial joke on these forums, and the implication that i may have been labelling people with different sexual preferences as Rabit Bandicoots tells me without a doubt that you completely mis-interpret my general demeanor, and the reasons im choosing to post these comments in your thread. To you, i must just seem like some guy who dishes out hate for no reason, the kind of guy who makes racist and sexist comments on a public internet forum? To be honest, im actually slightly offended that the only way you could interpret that was in such a fashion, but it may well be purely to do with your misunderstanding of the wording, rather than your misunderstanding of my character. It still slightly bothers me that because my opinion of your guide has a large amount of criticism you feel the need to associate aggressive feelings with what im saying. Most of what i have said is just basic fact, or opinion based on logical reasoning. The claims you have made about me being "Inaccurate and Exaggerated", a "Hypocrite", "Logically Contradictory" and your question about me being Sexist are all completely (and ironically) Inaccurate and Exaggerated.
So TLDR you've been calling me a Hypocrite and Labelling me "Inaccurate and Exaggerated", all the while constantly telling me that you "Agree with XX" or that I'm "Bringing up good points". Couple this with the fact that you still believe in claiming your guide is currently the best choice for everyone and you end up with a giant waste of my time. (Anyone who knows SC2 knows that if a hotkey setup suits a large majority of the "Player Base", you sure as hell dont want to use it without serious tweak - because its not specialised enough. Its not tailored to you. And to be completely honest if you consider it able to be used for all 3 races without -Massive- changes, then it fundamentally MUST be lacking efficiency for any one particular race, enough so to convince any serious player to steer clear anyway.
On May 05 2012 08:02 JaKaTaK wrote: FoxyMayhem and I just made a breakthrough in custom hotkey layout efficiency. We are currently working on a new hotkey layout from scratch to utilize this.
Wait a second, are you telling me that you went back to square one, thought over the fundamentals again and then decided that you could do a better job? Are you telling me that by branching out, and asking for peoples opinions that arent yourself, you actually managed to come up with a better idea for a hotkey setup? HOLY SHIT, you only managed to end up doing exactly what i highlighted as the proper way to approach this project. And you even spent the last day arguing with me over the most basic of basic of fundamental logic, only to end up scrapping what you fought so hard to represent after having a "breakthrough".
Its amazing what happens when two people actually use their brains to help eachother, rather than just assuming they have the only opinion that matters. Imagine what could happen if a whole heap of people got on board, worked together to actually ascertain that their "Breakthrough Layout" was indeed the most efficient way, and THEN created it? And THEN tested it, with proper analysis to determine what tweaks needed to be made? Imagine we had several GM's and a plethora of Masters on board to help theorycraft the pro setup? Imagine we had a bunch of Bronzies too, to create a stripped back version that was easier to learn at first, but used as a stepping stone to get to the ultimate setup. Imagine our well thought out opinions were heard by somebody who isnt under the assumption that they know all 3 races perfectly and can make decisions regarding something as important as hotkey setups for -all 3 races-. Hell, i wouldnt even trust Morrows opinion alone on terran hotkeys and its his offrace. Infact, a smart person wouldnt take any single persons opinion as gospel, a true analyst will gather as many possible data points as they can and then cross reference to deduce whatever information they can. Then they will still bring in as many bright minds as they can to try and poke holes in their theory, welcoming any issues because fixing them brings you one step closer to that pure level you are trying to reach. Ignoring issues like hand size and race are disasters waiting to happen, please consider atleast race differences when making this new breakthrough setup.
There's no doubt that the default layouts are suboptimal, and a lot of your "optimization criteria" sounds very reasonable, so without trying it out yet I'd say you have something here.
In fact, pro players have gotten so used to learning a standard hotkey setup with BW, that I think most have never really considered how optimizing this could improve their play. I think there's room for improvement in the top player's play with a more efficient hotkey setup, it will be interesting to see if yours catches on, and what modifications are made to improve it.
Hey oMNY, You seem rathar frustrated with JaKaTaK after that last post. The only three places that seem a point of contention is 1) the idea that JaKaTaK is claiming his hotkey layout is best for everyone, 2) that his prasing makes noobs think they will pwn with it, and 3) that really left field race joke question.
About 1: I don't recall reading anywhere that he claimed it was best, only better than standard, grid, and most other hotkey layouts. Maybe I missed it, been a long day, but please quote where he does if you do. It'll be a great opportunity to laugh at him next time we're working on the new layout.
About 2: he said "There are some custom hotkey threads out there, but there are few as ruthlessly efficient as the hotkey setup that I have to offer" and seems to mean exactly what he said. That doesn't claim Righty is best, or even best for any individual, only that it is designed for superior efficiency. If the noobs like to extrapolate and fantasize that they can beat MKP with it, that's fun and all, but not really his responsibility. They are taking the original statement beyond what it says, which can be boiled down to "this is probably better than what you use" with bit of enthusiasm.
About 3: I don't know if he was asking if you were a racists the mainstream sense of bigot, but that's not the only way to interpret what he said. If that's what he mean, yeah, that's weird a dumb. Still. could have been a mock accusation that you're an SC2 racist, or that he didn't understand what you meant and felt like he was missing the joke and was asking for clarification.
And even if he his misinterpreting your post to intentionally or unintentionally escalate an argument, why is it worth getting offended over? He doesn't know you, so what value does his opinion have? It certainly can be frustrating though.
Don't forget to tell me where he said Righty was optimal!
@Deo1: Yeah, I can only imagine what an improved layout would look like in the hands of someone with Korean mechanics O.O
Hey Foxy, TBH im not really offended, although i did mention being slightly so. Im more annoyed as unless im completely mistaken, most of the things JaKaTaK retorted against me with were completely untrue and seemed to be more like replies born out of anger than any real attempt at understanding what ive been trying to say. - Im not even sure he knows the meaning of the word hypocrite at this point in time. From my point of view, i spent quite a long time replying to this thread because i actually feel like hotkeys are something the community could improve upon quite drastically, with the right fundamentals to go by. And in my opinion, im sorry, but no single person can possible have any real complete understanding of what is needed in a hotkey system that is supposed to suit everybody, not at this early stage. If anybody is even remotely close, its you - but even after watching your videos and stuff back when i was tweaking my system i still felt that impressive gains could be found by putting in more -initial- analysis, and most importantly bringing in more people, alot more people. Data would also be good. Its just rather infuriating to give a person many good reasons why i feel the way i do, and then have them throw back some two second afterthought that doesnt even relate or make any sense. Seriously, he told me i was Inaccurate and Exaggerated because i told him that his hotkey system could/would be "Hard to Learn" (Memorize) but still be an easy way to get better at Sc2. Is it just me, or does that make complete and total sense? It almost feels like he didnt even bother actually reading what i wrote, and just labelled me as a random hater or something.
Tbh, i hate guides that come up on TL posted by people who only want to advertise the fact that they came up with it. Like the stupid Gasless FE Fake into 11/11 Bunker All In TvP - the build is practically useless in any long term sense and a guide made for Alive/Browns Gasless Fake into 2Rax Bunker into !!EXPO!! would be a million times more useful - but people dont want whats best for the community they just want to be the author/creator. And what gets me is people defend this crap, claiming the build is good to have up your sleeve (for an insta loss against any toss who knows how to count workers maybe). This just seemed like abit of the same for awhile there, seemed like Jak was less interested in constructive criticism and more interested in pretending i was a Troll/Hater so he didnt need to address the issues i was bringing up.
And mate, its hard to take someone seriously who claims (or atleast basically does through his actions) that he has enough knowledge of SC2 in his own head to comfortably decide whats best for all 3 races in terms of hotkeys, without even a tattered strip of text to inform us of what league his in, how long he has been playing, or if he has even brought anybody who can actually be considered knowledgeable enough into the fold. As far as him claiming his setup was optimal, it was basically in the start of the OP - just one of the lines up top, its been tweaked now to not seem so presumptuous but previously it read something along the lines of "There are some hotkey threads out there, but none are as ruthlessly efficient as this one" (note the confidence in the "none", is this simply his opinion and he is projecting it or did a bunch of GM Terrans actually approach him to inform him that his hotkey setup has changed their life. I mean jeeze dude, i dont want to cross any race lines but he could be 8 feet tall with fingers that could choke an oak tree but just happens to cup his hand slightly, we just dont know - and he wasnt giving us -anything- to go on, while making all the claims. Now, with the quality of these strategy forums at the forefront of my mind, i dont think im actually willing to stand for that crap anymore. Either back the claims up or dont make them, he claims to be not wanting to waste peoples time, but he gives people no indication whatsoever of whether his setup was designed with their hand size/race in mind. So after they finally finish rote learning his complex hotkey assignments and then learn that commonly their race is hotkeyed differently for whatever reason even small, im sure they wont feel like things were misrepresented.
Anyway, i really have spent too much time on this and need to get some rest - Basically, my key point was that if you havent taken important things such as race differences and hand sizes atleast as seriously or more seriously than the other driving factors, you arent really paying enough attention to even be able to call yourself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to this stuff. You havent done the yards, and to be honest no one man has. We need alot of good T's, alot of good Z's and alot of good P's. Also, some Randoms - but they will need to understand that their hotkey setup can never be as efficient as the others because it needs to be more versatile. We need to work together, analyse everything, test everything, and base our decisions on logical choices made only after completely exploring the reasons behind it. Thats the only way you will actually get a finished product that any number of skilled players can put their faith in. I mean really, who is going to trust a bloke who claims he knows it all but doesnt really detail how he came to the conclusions except that his playstyle influenced the changes obviously. Lets just take his word for it that his experience encompasses everything the SC2 playerbase will need, hey? Or maybe we could throw out a few questions that deserve answers (Choosing to neglect racial differences just because they "arent needed" in his eyes is unacceptable if he wants this to become anything mainstream. Its simply not good enough for what he is aiming for) and get called an inaccurate, hypocritical potential racist while in the same breath he tells me repeatedly i make very good points. I already know this, because the questions im asking are basic and straight up -require- detailed answers to even be taken seriously by anyone who is an experienced player. "Didnt make a full setup for Zerg? Whats your reasoning because it better be very damn good, i mean, having one universal set up better let me build marines out of my hatcheries or something because i really dont see how the versatility can be gained without a significant loss to efficiency."
Anyway, to top it all off, after arguing with me for a day and calling me all manner of completely inaccurate words he finally decides that your tender loving presence allows him to actually consider things from square one again. Lo and Behold, he obviously realises that there is -something- that can be done early in the planning and research phases to make this setup more efficient. Holy shit, who ever would have guessed that this guy JaKaTak didnt think of absolutely everything when he came up with his initial fundamentals? I would have assumed that one ??? league ??? race player could easily assimilate all the knowledge needed in a relatively short sc2 career to know everything he possibly needs to in order to create the bomb hotkey setup, right? Hes so good, i heard he can hide siege tanks in his orbital and lift off his refinery, and one time i saw him make this unit called the 'Bandicoot' - it looked like some sort of pelican-tiger and spat infested spacesharks out across the landscape, did i mention it was sexist?. Mad.. So i guess there is absolutely no need for him to rethink his fundamental guiding principles now that he has decided to go public, hey. Not even worth a quick look.
Not sure how you convinced him mate, although im pretty sure he/you/you two just came to a realization that there was a better way to do things and.. well, i dont expect any sort of closure from him thats for sure, i dont even really expect him to understand why im annoyed. Or why him turning around now and deciding to go back to scratch is basically throwing the fact that he never even wanted to listen to what i had to say after it became criticism. Honestly, my first and only real main thought was "Basic fundamentals have been ignored in the creation of this hotkey setup, thats not good enough for a community project." (dont tell me you would have ever ignored anything as big as race when making your setup, i doubt you would have even been able to bring yourself to publish your setup had you ignored anything as potentially vital as that. I dont even understand why you would ever choose to ignore race differences, its so insanely counter-intuitive to this whole process that it just blows my mind so far into another goddamn world. Anyway, i think ive sufficiently detailed why this angers me slightly, i really just need to let it go and stop wasting time on it though.
this is very important, though the only problem lies in whether people want to change from the layout they have been using for a long time (1-2 years). But this layout is helped immensely by the fact that bnet saves hotkeys, so that you wouldn't be screwed over in an internet cafe.
i don't like it when people say their key set up is the best, that sort of self promotion that needs to be called out for being false. while it might be better than most, everyone thinks differently and because of that they will play differently. Something good for one person might not be good for another. Its the same thing with language, you need to think a certain way to speak a language properly
ie I have my build basic as T since my builder probe is 5, and my build pylon as T since thats the building I build the most. However if one of my friends tried this and he could never do this properly and he'd keep building pylons (I've never had this problem). Instead he used E for pylon and it worked better for him, whereas for me I just think E is good for gateway
edit- to the guy who said he didn't claim it was the best, he called it the "most optimal hotkey set up to date" or something similar to that. that means the best to date....
Seriously, he told me i was Inaccurate and Exaggerated because i told him that his hotkey system could/would be "Hard to Learn" (Memorize) but still be an easy way to get better at Sc2. Is it just me, or does that make complete and total sense? It almost feels like he didnt even bother actually reading what i wrote, and just labelled me as a random hater or something.
It didn't make sense to me until you defined it further in a previous post. Then it made sense. Sometimes we try to convey points in a sort of short-hand that makes sense to us, but is hard for others to interpret without extra defining.
Tbh, i hate guides that come up on TL posted by people who only want to advertise the fact that they came up with it. Like the stupid Gasless FE Fake into 11/11 Bunker All In TvP - the build is practically useless in any long term sense and a guide made for Alive/Browns Gasless Fake into 2Rax Bunker into !!EXPO!! would be a million times more useful - but people dont want whats best for the community they just want to be the author/creator. And what gets me is people defend this crap, claiming the build is good to have up your sleeve (for an insta loss against any toss who knows how to count workers maybe).
Yeah, this can be very frustrating.
And mate, its hard to take someone seriously who claims (or atleast basically does through his actions) that he has enough knowledge of SC2 in his own head to comfortably decide whats best for all 3 races in terms of hotkeys... but previously it read something along the lines of "There are some hotkey threads out there, but none are as ruthlessly efficient as this one" (note the confidence in the "none", is this simply his opinion and he is projecting it or did a bunch of GM Terrans actually approach him to inform him that his hotkey setup has changed their life.
Okay, so here's where I see what looks like a jump in logic. If we look at it, it may turn out to not even be an issue.
No where have I found that he claim it's optimal, only better. Huge distinction. And there are clear ways of measuring that, the most basic being "does your hand move less during a game"? This means 2 things: less reaching = speed, and less movement is more ergonomic, assuming the rest position is comfortable. There are other ways of measuring, such as minimum response time after a user becomes aware of a drop (in Darkgrid, the time has been reduced from about 560 milliseconds average using minimap click, worker box select, move command, to about 280 miliseconds using basecam, box select, move command). If response time/common action sequence execution time and reaching are less than another layout, if the most frequently used and time-sensitive keys are under the fingers in the rest position, and if more beneficial actions are easily accessed, then it is objectively better.
I don't know what is optimal, and I don't know if I ever will. He has said the same. But we do know what's better than standard, grid, and every other layout I've seen, since, by the standards mentioned above and a few unmentioned (such as the principle of alliteration) they perform better.
We can only grade the performance of something based on tangible. Preferably measurable, criteria. But once we have the criteria, we can judge something. According to this criteria, his statement is true (except Darkgrid. He thought the resting positions were ASDF for Darkgrid when they're actually QWEF, making it appear much less efficient. It was a bit preemptive of him to say that without understanding Darkgrid more deeply... ).
Anyway, to bring it back around, creating strawman is the preferred method of trolling debaters. Whether it was intentional or not, you misrepresented his claim and tenaciously argued against it, which is the exact tactic used by troll to inflame their audience. It's hard to have a productive debate with someone when the points they're refuting aren't your own. Perhaps, because this looked like troll behavior, he began treating you like one, assuming a productive debate was not an option.
From the way your speaking now, it seems clear to me this is not how you intended to come across. Though, between the above, and phrases like "making your hotkey setup more efficient is one of the simplest ways to increase your overall SC2 ability and when the goldies read "If there is a more efficient hotkey setup out there, i cant find it" images of themselves performing multipronged attacks against MKP while eating a pizza instantly spring to their mind", the accusations of exaggeration make sense, because that's what the MKP thing is, and what the first thing looks like.
I am not defending how he handled it, just hoping to illuminate why this escalated with a third-party perspective.
We need to work together, analyse everything, test everything, and base our decisions on logical choices made only after completely exploring the reasons behind it. Thats the only way you will actually get a finished product that any number of skilled players can put their faith in.
Eh, I don't know, I tend to think there's a lot of things that we can say X is better than Y using the measurable criteria we've established. We know moving 8,9, and 0 control groups closer to the left of the keyboard in a standard layout is better, thanks to the reach and time criteria.
The biggest foibles are going to come from incorrect or incomplete criteria, and trade-off areas. A good example of a gray tradeoff is the choice between a super dense layout that requires high accuracy, and a less dense layout that requires more reaching, but less accuracy. And even that one I can answer if we're trying to be ergonomic: less movement with higher needed accuracy puts far less strain on the wrists. (Darkgrid, with its ergonomic inception, is the very dense kind. But throughout the versions I've learned tricks to that allow for less accuracy without sacrificing almost any efficiency. So that's cool.)
BUT, I think I know the spirit of what you're saying: don't close your mind to new innovations, and they can come from anyone. And I agree completely. I'm especially looking forward to see what the next criteria we add to the list is, what bit we're missing.
Either back the claims up or dont make them, he claims to be not wanting to waste peoples time
Amen. But I also think JaKaTaK is a good guy trying to do a good thing. (Considering the miscommunication between you two, I can see why it wouldn't come across that way). Like a flickering little flame you want to warm you, but isn't the fire you want. We can either crush it out to spite it for being an impostor of the fire we hoped, or we can feed it moss and wood and get a proper flame. Had your relationship with JaKaTaK not started off with that miscommunication, I'd like to think you'd take the second approach, so you probably get what I'm talking about anyway. Hmm... how can we stretch this metaphor further... I know! The ones who make a crap builds just to have their name on something are like the fake tin-foil and red light fire contraptions: piling wood on them won't help and, beside, tin foil makes such a nice crunching sound when you step on it?
Okay, now that's mean.
Anyway, to top it all off, after arguing with me for a day and calling me all manner of completely inaccurate words he finally decides that your tender loving presence allows him to actually consider things from square one again.
Hes so good, i heard he can hide siege tanks in his orbital and lift off his refinery, and one time i saw him make this unit called the 'Bandicoot' - it looked like some sort of pelican-tiger and spat infested spacesharks out across the landscape, did i mention it was sexist?. Mad
*squints at text*
"Yo BRO, did you put LSD in my cereal again!?"
Not sure how you convinced him mate, although im pretty sure he/you/you two just came to a realization that there was a better way to do things and.. well, i dont expect any sort of closure from him thats for sure, i dont even really expect him to understand why im annoyed.
He challenged my unconscious assumption that only ability keys could be on the rest keys, and I challenged his unconcious assumption that only ASDF could be your rest keys. And a few other small things between the two of us. It's really allowed us to do some wacky-great stuff.
We also had the benefit of voice communication, where the stuff that happened between you guys doesn't happen as much -- and when it does, is usually short lived. He seems a lot better at formatting his ideas for voice communication were he can get instant feedback from the other participants to balance a discussion. Also, he's really funny.
Doesn't come through in the text much, does it?
Text for a general audience is a freakin art form, yeesh, can be so challenging some times.
Anyway, just remember Hanlon's Razor, except, er, replace "stupidity" with "difficulty communicating in the medium" in this case. Hey, speaking of slapping names on stuff, can we call that Colter's Razor? "On the web, don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to difficulty communicating through a text-only medium." Eh?
(dont tell me you would have ever ignored anything as big as race when making your setup, i doubt you would have even been able to bring yourself to publish your setup had you ignored anything as potentially vital as that. I dont even understand why you would ever choose to ignore race differences, its so insanely counter-intuitive to this whole process that it just blows my mind so far into another goddamn world.
Yeah, I try to optomize for each race. But I also have another criteria I failed to mention when designing a layout: "don't go friggin insane". So sometimes I make sacrifices to make only a great layout, instead of a perfect one (as if I could, but hopefully you get what I mean). For instance, Darkgrid protoss uses a control group for gateway selection, abandoning the warpgate key entirely. It bothers me, but I didn't find a need for that extra control group, I would have to make a complete redesign for protoss, and it meant that darkgrid couldn't be a single convenient file. The biggest influence was the first though.
We will be reexamining these assumptions with the new layout, no worries.
One thing I really hate about changing hotkey setup is that your macro goes to hell for a long time. Since I changed my hotkeys I lost 28 out of 30 games and dropped a league. My macro dropped to bronze level basically. Hopefully this will pay off in the long run though.
Hi, I'm a newb and I used your hotkeys... some feedback.
Firstly, it takes a bit to get used to. I kept hitting 4 to try to select my hatcheries at first. I accidently built an evo chamber instead of a pool in the first game which was a bit annoying. I also forgot to add all my queens to the same hotkey so I had some queens running across the map to inject.
What I like about it. As a zerg player it helped me immensely with my injects. Caps lock to cycle through hatches is brilliant.
The change to the infestor really screwed me up though. They came at me with medivacs and I kept trying to fungal them but I was hitting the wrong button... then I'd try to drop infested terrans and again I would always hit the wrong button. It's a hard habit to shake.
The CTRL group set up is awesome but it takes a while to get used to. I suggest making a post-it note to stick on your monitor until you get the feel down if you do indeed uses these keys.
What I don't like was the removal of the spacebar... it's the hardest change I have to deal with... but I like it because it is forcing me to look at my minimap more.
If you're like me, and you're newish and trying this out for the first time... and you're zerg, switch the bindings of capslock and tab. So Tab cycles through your bases and capslock goes to camera location 1. It feels much more natural and you won't be lifting your hand off the keyboard to hit the capslock key.
You'd think you wouldn't need to lift your hand just to press caplocks, and you don't, but the keystroke is probably so foriegn to you that you'll definitely lift your hand the first few times. It is a minor change but it defintely makes things more feel more intuitive.
Cynicism isn't wisdom; it's a lazy way to say that you've been burned. Seems if anything you'd be less certain after everything you ever learned.
On May 06 2012 02:52 MockHamill wrote: One thing I really hate about changing hotkey setup is that your macro goes to hell for a long time. Since I changed my hotkeys I lost 28 out of 30 games and dropped a league. My macro dropped to bronze level basically. Hopefully this will pay off in the long run though.
Play a couple of games against the computer on very easy until you're comfortable with your macro.
Cynicism isn't wisdom; it's a lazy way to say that you've been burned. Seems if anything you'd be less certain after everything you ever learned.
Jojo131 Philippines. May 06 2012 05:39. Posts 1467
I understand that I am difficult to understand via text. If you read everything that I write with a calm, relaxed voice, it will come across more clearly. Also, if you interpret what I say literally, it will come across more clearly. I use my words as exactly as I can, but I make mistakes. I apologize for the mistakes I have made.
I do not want to waste any more time debating the little things, I don't think it is worth either of us spending that much time reading and responding to walls of text. As far as I understand, these are your 2 specific contributing points to the hotkey layout.
1. Account for hand size/position. -agreed. I don't have the time to make different layouts for different hand sizes. I hope that someone who does have the time, take the template that foxy and/or I develop, create variants for different hand sizes, and publish those variants for the benefit of the community. 2. Account for different races. -agreed. Chameleon is designed with random players in mind. Ultimately there will be 4 different race layouts, Protoss, Terran, Zerg, and Random.
There will never be a perfect custom hotkey layout. We are doing the best we can to find the best one we can.
This is a template. This is a work in progress. This can be taken as is, or customized to your own personal preferences.
Are there any other ideas you have about guiding principles you would like to bring to the table?
Last edit: 2012-06-13 03:54:49
Imagination is more important than knowlege
JaKaTaK United States. May 06 2012 13:28. Posts 1495
Hey JakaTaK -- Thank you for the hard work, I added the keyboard layout today and have practised in FFA games. I will keep practising with this keyboard layout as it feels groovier than the standard layout. The thing that confuses me still after 5-6 FFA games are the control groups, ctrl+f=1 c+d=2 c+r=3 c+e=4
Those keys are laid out like this but the bindings are backwards, it feels like im selecting keys from right to left and the control groups on my bar show them the other way around? Does that make any sense?
E R ------ 4 3 D F ------ 2 1
Also, tell me, are you working on someting from scratch again?