| Rassy Netherlands. May 03 2012 14:05. Posts 1486 | Profile # |
Queen energy wont speed up a roach max ?
You will still need 1 queen/hatchery and your injects are still limited by the hatchery timer.
Not sure if queen will do much for creepspread.
At first sight it does, since every queen starts now with an inject AND a tumor so no more waiting for 2nd or 3rd queen or skipping injects.
But i thought that most pro zergs already skipped one of their early injects to place a tumor with their first queen because they dont have the monney at that time to use the larva,
If this is the case then this update wont have much effect on the creepspread rate at all. |
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| blade55555 United States. May 03 2012 14:07. Posts 14069 | Profile Blog # |
On May 03 2012 14:00 windsupernova wrote:
I don´t know why some people keep bringing up late game TvP
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
They acknowledge the state of TvP. Every time they acknowledge something they end up changing it
There has been only one time I can think of where they didn't change it. Back when terrans were struggling super hardcore vs bl/infestor/corruptor they were talking about nerfing it, then terrans figured out ghosts were really really good and they left it alone. Not as much complaints about it except when the ghost was nerfed so I don't think it's a big deal anymore but just thought I would point out the one time they didn't change something they were discussing  |
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 xrapture United States. May 03 2012 14:07. Posts 1643 | Profile Blog # |
won't this make the 200/200 max roach stephano style hit even faster?
forgo 2nd queen for 3 more drones, use 2nd queen to inject 2nd and 3rd base.
i don't think that style needed a buff... |
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| latan May 03 2012 14:08. Posts 724 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 13:16 Sadistx wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 12:45 latan wrote:
On May 03 2012 12:43 avilo wrote:
On May 03 2012 12:41 latan wrote:
at first the queen change seems too much, but if you think about it it's only one extra tumor per queen. it'll help with creep connecting bases obviously and initial creep spread, but it won't affect that much overall creep spread, since if you can clear 1 tumor you can surely clear an additional one.
that is, I don't think it will be much harder to deny/clear creep, but it will certainly reduce a lot of stress for zerg players in the very early game.
It's a vast change. Lower level players won't see the difference, but for every high level player it's a world of difference. Spreading creep is essentially "free." All it takes is multi-task, and progamers are going to be able to cover half the map in creep by the 10 minute mark. A lot of people just do not understand how such a "tiny" change is a huge, huge, HUGE, buff.
well then i guess then opponents will have to work a little harder to deny creep spread, which isn't even difficult anyway, or a big deal, i think. the observer change will help a bit as well.
I dont think you understand. You can't "work a little harder" to counter a HUGE HUGE buff. It doesn't work. It's like saying: zergs will have to work a little harder to defend a 3 rax scv allin - they fucking can't, they just dont have the larva to make enough units at that point in time. Same way terran doesn't have enough units to cover every possible point where each of the 5-6 free tumors might spread next. You simply don't have _have_ enough units to be out on a map safely denying creep at your leisure, when zerg gets a 30 second lead start on the spread. Imagine a snowball going down the mountain. Every 50 ft it gains an extra 50 lbs of weight. You weigh 150 lbs. If before the snowball started at 150ft. up the mountain, so by the time it gets to you its 150 vs 150, now it starts 200 ft. above. You can try all you want, but the momentum is now 30% higher, and you will literally get rolled even if you "try a little harder" to stop it. I hope this analogy makes sense, even if the numbers dont.
and you're missing (or not addressing) what i'm actually saying: denying creep will be insignificantly harder. and it's definitely not a snowball effect. the amount of active tumors will merely grow by a fixed number (about 2-4 i think).
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| tadL Croatia. May 03 2012 14:08. Posts 217 | Profile # |
| I always thought the interesting point on queens is to decide, inject or creepspawn. With this change this is gone, feel kind of sad. |
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| Ribbon United States. May 03 2012 14:09. Posts 5020 | Profile Blog # |
I don't know how Idra can see his screen behind the massive erection he must have. A buff to early game Zerg scouting is the buff he's wanted since beta.
Queens popping with transfuse might be even more impactful than extra tumors. There's a lot of stuff Zerg macro openings are a little bit safer against, now. |
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| ContrailNZ New Zealand. May 03 2012 14:09. Posts 296 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 14:07 xrapture wrote:
won't this make the 200/200 max roach stephano style hit even faster?
forgo 2nd queen for 3 more drones, use 2nd queen to inject 2nd and 3rd base.
i don't think that style needed a buff...
The funny thing is that 2 base protoss all in still don't hit fast enough to counter Stephano's current 3 base mass roach timing.
Imagine when he can get drones or units a little sooner and not have to worry about protoss air.
Zerg only loss to Protoss if they get in horrible positioning fights or if they get caught off gaurd over droning vs an allin. |
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| redechelon May 03 2012 14:10. Posts 17 | Profile # |
| I think all of the changes sound good. The observer build time seems more drastic than the queen energy to be honest... I completely agree that the queen should start with more than 25 energy, maybe not as much as they gave it, but we'll find out soon enough. Observer build time was decreased by a quarter though... that's pretty big. |
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| aksfjh United States. May 03 2012 14:11. Posts 3482 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 14:07 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:00 windsupernova wrote:
I don´t know why some people keep bringing up late game TvP
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
They acknowledge the state of TvP. Every time they acknowledge something they end up changing it
There has been only one time I can think of where they didn't change it. Back when terrans were struggling super hardcore vs bl/infestor/corruptor they were talking about nerfing it, then terrans figured out ghosts were really really good and they left it alone. Not as much complaints about it except when the ghost was nerfed so I don't think it's a big deal anymore but just thought I would point out the one time they didn't change something they were discussing
They left it alone for a good 6 months at least since first mentioning it. |
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| TheRabidDeer United States. May 03 2012 14:12. Posts 2320 | Profile Blog # |
On May 03 2012 14:07 xrapture wrote:
won't this make the 200/200 max roach stephano style hit even faster?
forgo 2nd queen for 3 more drones, use 2nd queen to inject 2nd and 3rd base.
i don't think that style needed a buff...
No, you still need 3 queens total, and you send your 2nd queen to the 3rd after it injects. So by the time it gets to the 3rd and the 3rd hatches it can inject, and the queen at your natural pops as larvae spawn off to inject there too. |
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| windsupernova Mexico. May 03 2012 14:12. Posts 5272 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 14:09 ContrailNZ wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:07 xrapture wrote:
won't this make the 200/200 max roach stephano style hit even faster?
forgo 2nd queen for 3 more drones, use 2nd queen to inject 2nd and 3rd base.
i don't think that style needed a buff...
The funny thing is that 2 base protoss all in still don't hit fast enough to counter Stephano's current 3 base mass roach timing. Imagine when he can get drones or units a little sooner and not have to worry about protoss air. Zerg only loss to Protoss if they get in horrible positioning fights or if they get caught off gaurd over droning vs an allin.
And yet in Korea Protoss are winning quite a lot vs Zerg
http://i.imgur.com/898Wwh.png
Its not as simple as ¨Zerg only lose when they screw up¨ |
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| windsupernova Mexico. May 03 2012 14:14. Posts 5272 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 14:11 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:07 blade55555 wrote:
On May 03 2012 14:00 windsupernova wrote:
I don´t know why some people keep bringing up late game TvP
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
They acknowledge the state of TvP. Every time they acknowledge something they end up changing it
There has been only one time I can think of where they didn't change it. Back when terrans were struggling super hardcore vs bl/infestor/corruptor they were talking about nerfing it, then terrans figured out ghosts were really really good and they left it alone. Not as much complaints about it except when the ghost was nerfed so I don't think it's a big deal anymore but just thought I would point out the one time they didn't change something they were discussing
They left it alone for a good 6 months at least since first mentioning it.
Hey I never said they work fast!
They fist mentioned Templar energy upgrade in the 1st SC2 Blizzcon and they nerfed it months later |
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| Gijian United States. May 03 2012 14:16. Posts 266 | Profile # |
| Rather than the extra energy on queen, why not give the hatchery a single creep tumor? They could give it an initial cooldown so zerg don't spread superfast. |
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| bittman Australia. May 03 2012 14:16. Posts 7257 | Profile # |
OL speed - seems like a nice little change since the speed change doesn't appear so dramatic
Queen energy - So-so. I do thin it's hilarious watching players show screenshots of creep spread though because that does nothing for the argument. If they reduced the barracks build time I could show how many barracks I could build in 10 minutes too.
That said, I did like the current metagame decision to decide on when to either save energy for a early tumor or build a dedicated queen. I understand their goal to assist the zerg with early to mid game rushes though, but I'm on the fence as to whether this queen thing is a solution or just an easier approach to creep spread. I don't know what a better alternative solution would be though, but I do think more people need to offer these alternatives over complaining.
Ob build time decrease - is it really essential? Obs is the best scouting unit in the game and players as it is have to make that hard decision to stop army production if they want more detection / information. I like that conflict of production. Not for this change. |
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| nkr Sweden. May 03 2012 14:16. Posts 2778 | Profile Blog # |
| 50 starting energy is huge, lets hope for that! |
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| IdrA United States. May 03 2012 14:17. Posts 11438 | Profile Blog # |
On May 03 2012 14:09 Ribbon wrote:
I don't know how Idra can see his screen behind the massive erection he must have. A buff to early game Zerg scouting is the buff he's wanted since beta.
Queens popping with transfuse might be even more impactful than extra tumors. There's a lot of stuff Zerg macro openings are a little bit safer against, now.
im just trying to figure out when i started complaining about vortex vs bl/infestor dynamics since they seem to have about a year and a half lag on pulling their heads out of their asses |
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| mastergriggy United States. May 03 2012 14:18. Posts 1297 | Profile Blog # |
| 50 energy seems a bit drastic. Isn't the point of the overlord speed increase to ensure that zerg can scout so they no longer need to have that extra creep? Last edit: 2012-05-03 14:18:51 |
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| TheRabidDeer United States. May 03 2012 14:18. Posts 2320 | Profile Blog # |
On May 03 2012 14:09 ContrailNZ wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:07 xrapture wrote:
won't this make the 200/200 max roach stephano style hit even faster?
forgo 2nd queen for 3 more drones, use 2nd queen to inject 2nd and 3rd base.
i don't think that style needed a buff...
The funny thing is that 2 base protoss all in still don't hit fast enough to counter Stephano's current 3 base mass roach timing. Imagine when he can get drones or units a little sooner and not have to worry about protoss air. Zerg only loss to Protoss if they get in horrible positioning fights or if they get caught off gaurd over droning vs an allin.
Hero vs Leenock
MC vs Nestea
Basically every zerg eliminated by a protoss this season, would like a word with you about protoss not being able to beat it.
Just because you cant beat it, doesnt mean it cant be beaten. |
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| Zaphid Czech Republic. May 03 2012 14:19. Posts 1339 | Profile Blog # |
| I don't like the queen energy change, I feel like it makes stargate opening in PvZ almost useless. |
| | I will never ever play Mech against Protoss. - MVP | |
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| ContrailNZ New Zealand. May 03 2012 14:19. Posts 296 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 14:12 windsupernova wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:09 ContrailNZ wrote:
On May 03 2012 14:07 xrapture wrote:
won't this make the 200/200 max roach stephano style hit even faster?
forgo 2nd queen for 3 more drones, use 2nd queen to inject 2nd and 3rd base.
i don't think that style needed a buff...
The funny thing is that 2 base protoss all in still don't hit fast enough to counter Stephano's current 3 base mass roach timing. Imagine when he can get drones or units a little sooner and not have to worry about protoss air. Zerg only loss to Protoss if they get in horrible positioning fights or if they get caught off gaurd over droning vs an allin.
And yet in Korea Protoss are winning quite a lot vs Zerg http://i.imgur.com/898Wwh.pngIts not as simple as ¨Zerg only lose when they screw up¨
That is true, but I'm not talking about Zerg play overall. I am talking about the skill cap.
Remember that guys like Stephano / DRG etc even state they practice very little.
Protoss have basically maxed out timing attacks. The only reasons some are doing ok at times is they are catching Zerg out with mass sentry and getting into an awesome positioning where they can slice and dice zerg in a choke that needs little force fields (basically map helping). This means they are only fighting half a zerg army at a time so they can get efficiency.
If Zerg catch them before they get in position they would get smashed, but Zerg are strong enough that they often dont even start army production until Protoss is on the way to them.
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