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| Resistentialism Canada. May 05 2012 03:43. Posts 684 | Profile Blog # |
| Anti-air range on queens was already longer than the new anti-ground range and wasn't changed. So wrong on that point. |
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| corpuscle United States. May 05 2012 03:43. Posts 1941 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 03:38 TaeTae wrote:
Don't understand why the queen upgrade was removed. The new upgrade sucks as queens do bare terrible damage against everything. Also this will make scouting impossible in zvz for both teams basically: The Queeen is gonna auto attack overlords before u even notice they are there.
It's a ground range buff, not air. Air attack is unaffected. It'll mess with zergling scouting, but all that really means is that players will have to send an extra ling or two in when they scout, it's not a huge deal. The main effect it'll have on ZvZ is in line/baneling wars, which are going to be significantly tilted in the favor of the defender now. Should make ZvZ less of a knife-fight early on, which I'm okay with. |
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| SmileZerg United States. May 05 2012 03:48. Posts 396 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 03:38 TaeTae wrote:
Don't understand why the queen upgrade was removed. The new upgrade sucks as queens do bare terrible damage against everything. Also this will make scouting impossible in zvz for both teams basically: The Queeen is gonna auto attack overlords before u even notice they are there.
What? It's only an increase to their ground attack range. The AA range on Queens was already far greater anyways. |
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 InoyouS2 May 05 2012 03:49. Posts 1005 | Profile # |
There's a major flaw with Blizzard's balancing...
A: They are looking at balance in all leagues, that's bad, bad bad bad.
B: They are trying to balance the game at the top (the GSL), but there's a problem with that too; most Korean pros play Terran because you can translate APM into getting ahead much easier with the race mechanics, whereas Protoss and Zerg are mostly just probe/drone to a certain number, get a big army, and trash the opponent. Terran should no longer be receiving nerfs, and protoss should definitely not be receiving buffs after the most recent GSL. |
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| teamhozac May 05 2012 03:52. Posts 404 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 03:37 Diavlo wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:20 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 01:44 Diavlo wrote:
On May 04 2012 22:54 teamhozac wrote:
On May 04 2012 22:43 Br3ezy wrote:
i dont really understand in TvZ, if zerg has trouble scouting early game, but terran's early game is considered to be the strongest...doesnt that sort of contradict each other that they are trying to give zerg easier scouting game against the strongest part of tvz play? Wouldn't that like be lowering the mana cost for snipe on ghosts to be able to counter zerg's late game arsenel of broodlords ultralisks and infestors?
This has been the case since the dawn of the game, we are supposed to be the "harass race" the "early pressure race" who needs to put pressure on our opponents in order to stay even/get ahead. Unfortunately blizzard has done everything possible in order to make it harder for us to actually apply this pressure effectively. Rax nerf, reaper nerf, bunker nerf, BFH nerf, bigger maps, etc. Now this bullshit, better scouting for zerg, increased queen range, Blizzard really hates Terran. Some goober (community manager) over on the Battlenet forums was saying how TvP late game "may be Protoss favored" unless the Terran "uses his early/midgame advantage to stay even" How are we supposed to do this if they keep nerfing us, making the maps bigger, giving zerg/protoss better defense/scouting... shit has just gotten out of hand.
Just because Terran early game was broken for most of SC2's history doesn't mean the race is supposed to be strong early and ride that advantage in the late game.Races should be able to compete with each other at every stage of the game, it's the best way to make things interesting. Making Terran's early game weaker or at least less prone to coinflips is the first step in balancing TvZ. When that is done, maybe they will be able to actually see if the game is balanced late game or not and make adjustements if needed (putting back the real snipe for example). Because at this point we mostly see terran fail early game cheeses or timings and then bitch that BL-infestor is too strong. On an other subject, the queen change might be pretty cool against banelings. They will cover a larger area of the drone line and hit at least once more. Maybe that will limite a bit the effectiveness of the early pools-baneling nests.
Terran has to do damage against zerg, or at least force units other than drones, HAS TO. This is undisputable. If a Terran player just sits back and lets zerg drone up to 80, they lost. Period. Done. Nothing else to say here. I bolded the part in your post where you are dead wrong. This is EXACLTY where Terran is supposed to be strong, but Blizzard feels they need to constantly nerf every opener we have, or buff the other races in order to make it easier for them to deal with early game pressure, all this combined with HUGE rush distances on ladder maps makes putting pressure on greedy zerg and protoss players near impossible anymore. The reason we need to apply pressure, other than our late game units sucking, is that we cannot produce workers nearly as fast as protoss or zerg and can not keep up economically unless we pressure them while expanding ourselves. /rant
Yes you have to make zergs do other things than drone up and you have to limit their ability to expand. That's not the same as needing to get ahead in the early game just so you can survive the late game. Giving Zergs better way of scouting doesn't change the fact that they will have to make units instead of drones to counter you. It just changes the fact that you won't get to straight up kill the Zerg just because he couldn't scout your all-in/cheese. We need a game where the Terran puts to the Zerg's ability to make the correct decision against what the terran is doing to the test more than a game where the Terran chooses an all-in and crosses his fingers that the zerg is not blindly countering it. For the same reason i approve of the observer time decrease and would like the scans to be cheaper. Just for the game to be a little less f***ing random.
I said nothing about straight up killing zerg with an all in, and when is the last time you saw an all in in tvz work anyways? Everything has basically been figured out at this point and (especially now with these buffs) can be blindly countered by a spine or two and several queens, which you need anyways. With the queen buff and the overlord buff, there wont EVER be any reason to make any units besides queens and spines unitl youre good and droned up, and with your new and improved scouting ability you should be able to tell exactly what the terran player is going at all times and easily make the counter to that unit while droning up to the maximum. So no, youre not making the game less random, youre making it more fucking boring, and favored towards zerg.
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| nonsequitur May 05 2012 03:52. Posts 325 | Profile Blog # |
| Don't really get what Blizzard is trying to achieve with the range buff on queens. In any case, what they should be looking at is late game ZvP. ZvP late game has devolved into whether Vortex hits or not. It's not fun to watch or play games that end with a single spell cast. |
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| SmileZerg United States. May 05 2012 03:53. Posts 396 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 03:49 InoyouS2 wrote:
There's a major flaw with Blizzard's balancing...
A: They are looking at balance in all leagues, that's bad, bad bad bad.
B: They are trying to balance the game at the top (the GSL), but there's a problem with that too; most Korean pros play Terran because you can translate APM into getting ahead much easier with the race mechanics, whereas Protoss and Zerg are mostly just probe/drone to a certain number, get a big army, and trash the opponent. Terran should no longer be receiving nerfs, and protoss should definitely not be receiving buffs after the most recent GSL.
Hahaha get out of the thread. What Terran nerfs are you even talking about? They weren't touched at all by the changes. |
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| Beakyboo United States. May 05 2012 03:53. Posts 240 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 03:37 corpuscle wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:34 Beakyboo wrote:
I think it's pretty obvious at this point that these queen buffs are geared towards stopping the pylon/bunker ramp block without sticking the neutral depots on ladder maps, which it's hardly surprising that they're opposed to doing
I don't see how that would help, queens aren't going to be out yet most of the time for those types of blocks.
They won't be out in time to prevent it from happening, but it means you can break it more cost effectively. I don't know for sure, would have to try it out really. The energy buff makes sense in that way too though since you could spread creep towards your ramp and put a spine in range to break it a lot earlier.
If we hadn't already circumvented this problem on tournament maps, albeit in a somewhat unconventional way, then maybe people would see more justification for some sort of buff to help with it. In the end, I think we should want ladder balance to be the same as tournament balance, and if Blizzard isn't going to introduce a gimmick to prevent ramp blocking then I do think it should be addressed in some other way.
Or maybe I'm totally off here, who knows what goes through their heads really.Last edit: 2012-05-05 04:02:10 |
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| SafeAsCheese United States. May 05 2012 03:55. Posts 4724 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 03:52 nonsequitur wrote:
Don't really get what Blizzard is trying to achieve with the range buff on queens. In any case, what they should be looking at is late game ZvP. ZvP late game has devolved into whether Vortex hits or not. It's not fun to watch or play games that end with a single spell cast.
Uh... marine and hellion deflection?
You know one queen can almost kill 3 early marines without stim and combat shields alone right?
With 5 range, queens cannot be kited with hellions and marines.
MVP popularized making 4-6 hellions and keeping them outside Z base to prevent both creep and a third base. These new queens will be able to more easily stop that shit. |
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| Wasteweiser Canada. May 05 2012 04:11. Posts 514 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 03:49 InoyouS2 wrote:
There's a major flaw with Blizzard's balancing...
A: They are looking at balance in all leagues, that's bad, bad bad bad.
No whats bad is they don't disclose all their information they use. That is bad bad bad. We don't really know what information they're really looking at,all we know from previous balance stats that they do have the capabilities to look at all leagues seperate. |
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| Bure United States. May 05 2012 04:15. Posts 11 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 03:55 SafeAsCheese wrote:
Uh... marine and hellion deflection?
You know one queen can almost kill 3 early marines without stim and combat shields alone right?
With 5 range, queens cannot be kited with hellions and marines.
MVP popularized making 4-6 hellions and keeping them outside Z base to prevent both creep and a third base. These new queens will be able to more easily stop that shit.
One queen should almost kill 3 marines at the start. It takes 150 minerals on both sides. With combat shield and stim though im sure that changes drastically in terrans favor.
4-6 hellions outside of zerg base to prevent as much as it did was sort of silly. |
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| 1st_Panzer_Div. United States. May 05 2012 04:18. Posts 621 | Profile # |
I like the current patch now. The queen energy buff seemed insane, the +2 ground range makes sense, as the energy buff was meant to assist with hellions, not make creep an unstoppable wave across the map from the 5 minute mark.
Edit: Also the 4-6 hellion completely denying the zerg for so long was ridiculous. Hellions were never under pressure and completely shut down creep.Last edit: 2012-05-05 04:19:21 |
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| mrjpark United States. May 05 2012 04:22. Posts 267 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 04:18 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
I like the current patch now. The queen energy buff seemed insane, the +2 ground range makes sense, as the energy buff was meant to assist with hellions, not make creep an unstoppable wave across the map from the 5 minute mark.
Edit: Also the 4-6 hellion completely denying the zerg for so long was ridiculous. Hellions were never under pressure and completely shut down creep.
B-B-But I wanted to see how fast Seal could just make the minimap purple with the energy buff... |
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| Twerrax Norway. May 05 2012 04:37. Posts 20 | Profile # |
Reduce spawning pool cost from 200 to 50. Or 100.
So that a 10pool for a bit faster queens is not shooting oneself in the foot eco wise. Some would say that this would encourage more 6pools, but I don't think so cause you still have the same amount of larva. |
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| Huragius Lithuania. May 05 2012 04:38. Posts 1376 | Profile # |
So, basically queen buff is designed to deflect whole hellion harass. Now zerg will make additional few queens and will always push hellions away while spreading creep to third. Hellion FE with Fast Third Base will lose it's whole purpose, because zerg will take his third early without making any gas units which is fucking insane... 1 spine 3 queens and a group of zerglings behind them is all what it will take to secure third base. With all that saved up gas will see ridiculous shit like double evo chamber and 12 infestors poping out during mid game while teching to fast hive... Good luck Terrans lol.
It's freaking sad that people and blizzard think that hellion FE is a problem in ZvT. What they don't realize is that it is the only macro oriented build which doesn't put you too far behind (exception is maps like Shakuras Plateu where you can do 1 rax or 2 rax FE).
IMHO these balance changes are heading to a wrong direction. They will only encourage terran do to more all-ins and less macro or harass oriented builds... Only overlord speed change makes sense. I don't really know which change is worse, queen energy or queen ground attack range...Last edit: 2012-05-05 04:42:49 |
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| GloPikkle United States. May 05 2012 04:44. Posts 197 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 04:37 Twerrax wrote:
Reduce spawning pool cost from 200 to 50. Or 100.
So that a 10pool for a bit faster queens is not shooting oneself in the foot eco wise. Some would say that this would encourage more 6pools, but I don't think so cause you still have the same amount of larva.
But the lings would be in your base like 15 seconds earlier. |
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| teamhozac May 05 2012 04:45. Posts 404 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 04:18 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
I like the current patch now. The queen energy buff seemed insane, the +2 ground range makes sense, as the energy buff was meant to assist with hellions, not make creep an unstoppable wave across the map from the 5 minute mark.
Edit: Also the 4-6 hellion completely denying the zerg for so long was ridiculous. Hellions were never under pressure and completely shut down creep.
How is it ridiculous? its a 400-600 mineral investment, and with 2 queens it can be shut down, especially now. Or a few roaches will completely shut it down as well... not quite sure why this ever became an issue. Youre basically saying the one reliable build Terran has in order to try and deny creep and possibly a third is OP. So should we just both max out and throw our armies at each other from now on? This thread is a joke |
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| Pandain United States. May 05 2012 04:46. Posts 5937 | Profile Blog # |
I honestly feel like they just don't understand balance at the highest level, or contact the pros in balance opinions.
Zerg early scouting was a big problem a year ago. Now you can pretty much defend anything just by getting three queens, a spine, and eventually an evo.
What the overlord change just does is lower the skill gap. It was an art constantly spreading each new overlord. You had to do it constantly, and send them early, because they were so slow. Now less skilled players are rewarded.
Hellions OP in ZvT? Really? And the solution is to help zergs spread creep faster? That was why Terrans went hellions! To control the creep!
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| teamhozac May 05 2012 04:47. Posts 404 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 04:38 Huragius wrote:
So, basically queen buff is designed to deflect whole hellion harass. Now zerg will make additional few queens and will always push hellions away while spreading creep to third. Hellion FE with Fast Third Base will lose it's whole purpose, because zerg will take his third early without making any gas units which is fucking insane... 1 spine 3 queens and a group of zerglings behind them is all what it will take to secure third base. With all that saved up gas will see ridiculous shit like double evo chamber and 12 infestors poping out during mid game while teching to fast hive... Good luck Terrans lol.
It's freaking sad that people and blizzard think that hellion FE is a problem in ZvT. What they don't realize is that it is the only macro oriented build which doesn't put you too far behind (exception is maps like Shakuras Plateu where you can do 1 rax or 2 rax FE).
IMHO these balance changes are heading to a wrong direction. They will only encourage terran do to more all-ins and less macro or harass oriented builds... Only overlord speed change makes sense. I don't really know which change is worse, queen energy or queen ground attack range...
All these changes are stupid and unnecessary, I think the only one that holds ANY water is the overlord speed buff, but even that is still meh. Pretty sure most competent zerg players know how to use thier overlords to scout regardless, using ledges, coming in from angles where they wont get spotted immediately, etc. These changes are dulling down innovation and gameplay |
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| BreakeR. Austria. May 05 2012 04:51. Posts 220 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 04:37 Twerrax wrote:
Reduce spawning pool cost from 200 to 50. Or 100.
So that a 10pool for a bit faster queens is not shooting oneself in the foot eco wise. Some would say that this would encourage more 6pools, but I don't think so cause you still have the same amount of larva.
wtf are u drunk? |
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