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| Creem Sweden. May 06 2012 00:59. Posts 246 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 00:07 teamhozac wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 23:58 Big J wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:48 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:41 latan wrote:
I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
Yeah you just suck, pretty much. If you die to hellion run bys you seriously, need to learn to play. An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it. If you really feel that zerg needs a buff once again, you need to learn to play. Make a roach warren ffs, these constant buffs and nerfs are just stupid. Remember how everyone was whining about the 1/1/1? Guess what? They figured it out, due to bigger maps, player innovation, whatever, it got figured out. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFF TO DEAL WITH HELLIONS /rant
Yeah Morrow, did you hear that. Why didn't you just build a queen, a spine and an evo chamber vs Maru. Wait you had that stuff? You even had 3 queens and zerglings and died? I guess you should take lessons by teamhozac, who is clearly a superior player to you.
You are probably the most biased, uninformed retard on this forum. you chose to read what you wanted to read, roaches. Yep thats it, one word: roaches. Those are the solution to hellions, but for some reason zerg feels like they need an easier option to deal wit hhellions, which they dont. So some pro lost ONE game to hellions? oh they must be OP? get a fucking life
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame) your roaches are pretty much worthless putting you behind significantly entering mid- to late game. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that it's nigh impossible to scout terran's decision on helions.
Queen range and OL speed are great changes that will allow ZvT >early game to be less about coinflips and more about actual playerskill.
Last edit: 2012-05-06 01:00:05 |
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| Bellazuk Canada. May 06 2012 01:03. Posts 146 | Profile # |
| seems like terrans qqed alot and blizz listened to them, that queen energy was the solution instead they put a stupid buff on the range that will do no shit.. true story. |
| | “The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it.” |  |
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| Gackt_ May 06 2012 01:03. Posts 328 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 00:59 Creem wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:07 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:58 Big J wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:48 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:41 latan wrote:
I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
Yeah you just suck, pretty much. If you die to hellion run bys you seriously, need to learn to play. An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it. If you really feel that zerg needs a buff once again, you need to learn to play. Make a roach warren ffs, these constant buffs and nerfs are just stupid. Remember how everyone was whining about the 1/1/1? Guess what? They figured it out, due to bigger maps, player innovation, whatever, it got figured out. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFF TO DEAL WITH HELLIONS /rant
Yeah Morrow, did you hear that. Why didn't you just build a queen, a spine and an evo chamber vs Maru. Wait you had that stuff? You even had 3 queens and zerglings and died? I guess you should take lessons by teamhozac, who is clearly a superior player to you.
You are probably the most biased, uninformed retard on this forum. you chose to read what you wanted to read, roaches. Yep thats it, one word: roaches. Those are the solution to hellions, but for some reason zerg feels like they need an easier option to deal wit hhellions, which they dont. So some pro lost ONE game to hellions? oh they must be OP? get a fucking life
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame) your roaches are pretty much worthless putting you behind significantly entering mid- to late game. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that it's nigh impossible to scout terran's decision on helions. Queen range and OL speed are great changes that will allow ZvT >early game to be less about coinflips and more about actual playerskill.
Very well said, just wanted to point that out.
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| Shiori May 06 2012 01:03. Posts 2816 | Profile Blog # |
On May 06 2012 00:59 Creem wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:07 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:58 Big J wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:48 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:41 latan wrote:
I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
Yeah you just suck, pretty much. If you die to hellion run bys you seriously, need to learn to play. An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it. If you really feel that zerg needs a buff once again, you need to learn to play. Make a roach warren ffs, these constant buffs and nerfs are just stupid. Remember how everyone was whining about the 1/1/1? Guess what? They figured it out, due to bigger maps, player innovation, whatever, it got figured out. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFF TO DEAL WITH HELLIONS /rant
Yeah Morrow, did you hear that. Why didn't you just build a queen, a spine and an evo chamber vs Maru. Wait you had that stuff? You even had 3 queens and zerglings and died? I guess you should take lessons by teamhozac, who is clearly a superior player to you.
You are probably the most biased, uninformed retard on this forum. you chose to read what you wanted to read, roaches. Yep thats it, one word: roaches. Those are the solution to hellions, but for some reason zerg feels like they need an easier option to deal wit hhellions, which they dont. So some pro lost ONE game to hellions? oh they must be OP? get a fucking life
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame) your roaches are pretty much worthless putting you behind significantly entering mid- to late game. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that it's nigh impossible to scout terran's decision on helions. Queen range and OL speed are great changes that will allow ZvT >early game to be less about coinflips and more about actual playerskill.
Hellion openers are not currently overpowered. There are no top Zergs complaining about them nor losing consistently to them. |
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| Gackt_ May 06 2012 01:10. Posts 328 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 01:03 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:59 Creem wrote:
On May 06 2012 00:07 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:58 Big J wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:48 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:41 latan wrote:
I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
Yeah you just suck, pretty much. If you die to hellion run bys you seriously, need to learn to play. An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it. If you really feel that zerg needs a buff once again, you need to learn to play. Make a roach warren ffs, these constant buffs and nerfs are just stupid. Remember how everyone was whining about the 1/1/1? Guess what? They figured it out, due to bigger maps, player innovation, whatever, it got figured out. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFF TO DEAL WITH HELLIONS /rant
Yeah Morrow, did you hear that. Why didn't you just build a queen, a spine and an evo chamber vs Maru. Wait you had that stuff? You even had 3 queens and zerglings and died? I guess you should take lessons by teamhozac, who is clearly a superior player to you.
You are probably the most biased, uninformed retard on this forum. you chose to read what you wanted to read, roaches. Yep thats it, one word: roaches. Those are the solution to hellions, but for some reason zerg feels like they need an easier option to deal wit hhellions, which they dont. So some pro lost ONE game to hellions? oh they must be OP? get a fucking life
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame) your roaches are pretty much worthless putting you behind significantly entering mid- to late game. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that it's nigh impossible to scout terran's decision on helions. Queen range and OL speed are great changes that will allow ZvT >early game to be less about coinflips and more about actual playerskill.
Hellion openers are not currently overpowered. There are no top Zergs complaining about them nor losing consistently to them.
Nah, I guess with 1 year of practice some people will get better at defending vs those...but when the strat work out..what do you do as a Zerg? |
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| Shiori May 06 2012 01:12. Posts 2816 | Profile Blog # |
On May 06 2012 01:10 Gackt_ wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 01:03 Shiori wrote:
On May 06 2012 00:59 Creem wrote:
On May 06 2012 00:07 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:58 Big J wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:48 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:41 latan wrote:
I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
Yeah you just suck, pretty much. If you die to hellion run bys you seriously, need to learn to play. An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it. If you really feel that zerg needs a buff once again, you need to learn to play. Make a roach warren ffs, these constant buffs and nerfs are just stupid. Remember how everyone was whining about the 1/1/1? Guess what? They figured it out, due to bigger maps, player innovation, whatever, it got figured out. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFF TO DEAL WITH HELLIONS /rant
Yeah Morrow, did you hear that. Why didn't you just build a queen, a spine and an evo chamber vs Maru. Wait you had that stuff? You even had 3 queens and zerglings and died? I guess you should take lessons by teamhozac, who is clearly a superior player to you.
You are probably the most biased, uninformed retard on this forum. you chose to read what you wanted to read, roaches. Yep thats it, one word: roaches. Those are the solution to hellions, but for some reason zerg feels like they need an easier option to deal wit hhellions, which they dont. So some pro lost ONE game to hellions? oh they must be OP? get a fucking life
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame) your roaches are pretty much worthless putting you behind significantly entering mid- to late game. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that it's nigh impossible to scout terran's decision on helions. Queen range and OL speed are great changes that will allow ZvT >early game to be less about coinflips and more about actual playerskill.
Hellion openers are not currently overpowered. There are no top Zergs complaining about them nor losing consistently to them.
Nah, I guess with 1 year of practice some people will get better at defending vs those...but when the strat work out..what do you do as a Zerg?
The strat only "works" in the sense of killing you if you defend poorly. |
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| Big J Austria. May 06 2012 01:13. Posts 5011 | Profile Blog # |
On May 06 2012 00:51 teamhozac wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:39 Big J wrote:
On May 06 2012 00:07 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:58 Big J wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:48 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:41 latan wrote:
I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
Yeah you just suck, pretty much. If you die to hellion run bys you seriously, need to learn to play. An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it. If you really feel that zerg needs a buff once again, you need to learn to play. Make a roach warren ffs, these constant buffs and nerfs are just stupid. Remember how everyone was whining about the 1/1/1? Guess what? They figured it out, due to bigger maps, player innovation, whatever, it got figured out. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFF TO DEAL WITH HELLIONS /rant
Yeah Morrow, did you hear that. Why didn't you just build a queen, a spine and an evo chamber vs Maru. Wait you had that stuff? You even had 3 queens and zerglings and died? I guess you should take lessons by teamhozac, who is clearly a superior player to you.
You are probably the most biased, uninformed retard on this forum. you chose to read what you wanted to read, roaches. Yep thats it, one word: roaches. Those are the solution to hellions, but for some reason zerg feels like they need an easier option to deal wit hhellions, which they dont. So some pro lost ONE game to hellions? oh they must be OP? get a fucking life
Hey, nice that for once I get a reply from you, as you have yet chosen to avoid any form of discussion if I replied to one of your wrong comments. And I don't choose to read what I want to read. Did or didn't you write "An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it."? You did, and apparently that is wrong, because I brought you a counterexample (basic logic). I didn't say anything about roaches, because I don't think you are wrong with it. Defensive Roaches are good vs hellions and even if it weren't for roaches, I don't think hellions are overpowered and I already wrote that I'm not sure if this buff is necessary, though I also think it won't change that much. I however do believe, that roaches are not the "the solution", because relying on them still keeps you weak against a variety of rushes (marauders) and slows down your tech, which then again forces you to go for some zergling/roach build early on, instead of early mutas or infestors. True, if you play this style no matter what like stephano does, you are really well off with roaches vs hellions. For any other style, I don't really see them working because you will not have the gas for speed+lair+some infestors/mutas at 10-11min, so you either die to marauders and maybe even banshees or you are forced to stay roach/ling (+upgrades) on lowtech. Also hellions can runby against roaches, so you still need a bunch of extra investments (speed, zerglings) to really be safe against possible mass hellion (1-2factory) variations, which you can't really scout.
Once again, why does the most balanced matchup in the game need any changes? When have hellions EVER been a problem? Blue flame was already nerfed, it requires a factory to get them, I dont even know what else to say. All I hear is "blah blah blah I dont want to get roaches and oh no he might run past my queen and kill some drones." Well guess what, theres a thing called risk/reward and if you take too much of a risk (not making roahces/spines) and somebody decides to kamakazi ten hellions into your drone line, well guess what? you deserve to lose... are we done here?
Once again, I don't think the queen change is necessary, nor do I think it will change anything big time.
They might as well cut it.
And you aribitrarily calling TvZ "the most" balanced MU, doesn't make it so.
Of course there is something called risk/reward. Building mass drones is not a risk/reward scenario, it's what you have to do do compete with Terran 3CC openings. |
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 teamhozac May 06 2012 01:22. Posts 404 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 01:03 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:59 Creem wrote:
On May 06 2012 00:07 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:58 Big J wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:48 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:41 latan wrote:
I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
Yeah you just suck, pretty much. If you die to hellion run bys you seriously, need to learn to play. An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it. If you really feel that zerg needs a buff once again, you need to learn to play. Make a roach warren ffs, these constant buffs and nerfs are just stupid. Remember how everyone was whining about the 1/1/1? Guess what? They figured it out, due to bigger maps, player innovation, whatever, it got figured out. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFF TO DEAL WITH HELLIONS /rant
Yeah Morrow, did you hear that. Why didn't you just build a queen, a spine and an evo chamber vs Maru. Wait you had that stuff? You even had 3 queens and zerglings and died? I guess you should take lessons by teamhozac, who is clearly a superior player to you.
You are probably the most biased, uninformed retard on this forum. you chose to read what you wanted to read, roaches. Yep thats it, one word: roaches. Those are the solution to hellions, but for some reason zerg feels like they need an easier option to deal wit hhellions, which they dont. So some pro lost ONE game to hellions? oh they must be OP? get a fucking life
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame) your roaches are pretty much worthless putting you behind significantly entering mid- to late game. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that it's nigh impossible to scout terran's decision on helions. Queen range and OL speed are great changes that will allow ZvT >early game to be less about coinflips and more about actual playerskill.
Hellion openers are not currently overpowered. There are no top Zergs complaining about them nor losing consistently to them.
Holy shit did we just agree on something?
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| neoghaleon55 United States. May 06 2012 01:25. Posts 6188 | Profile Blog # |
queen range buff's very interesting.
Check out how all these queens are hitting the same building due to increased range.
![[image loading]](http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/neoghaleon55/Screenshot2012-05-0509_21_22.jpg) |
| | moo...for DRG |  |
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| teamhozac May 06 2012 01:25. Posts 404 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 01:13 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:51 teamhozac wrote:
On May 06 2012 00:39 Big J wrote:
On May 06 2012 00:07 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:58 Big J wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:48 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:41 latan wrote:
I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
Yeah you just suck, pretty much. If you die to hellion run bys you seriously, need to learn to play. An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it. If you really feel that zerg needs a buff once again, you need to learn to play. Make a roach warren ffs, these constant buffs and nerfs are just stupid. Remember how everyone was whining about the 1/1/1? Guess what? They figured it out, due to bigger maps, player innovation, whatever, it got figured out. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFF TO DEAL WITH HELLIONS /rant
Yeah Morrow, did you hear that. Why didn't you just build a queen, a spine and an evo chamber vs Maru. Wait you had that stuff? You even had 3 queens and zerglings and died? I guess you should take lessons by teamhozac, who is clearly a superior player to you.
You are probably the most biased, uninformed retard on this forum. you chose to read what you wanted to read, roaches. Yep thats it, one word: roaches. Those are the solution to hellions, but for some reason zerg feels like they need an easier option to deal wit hhellions, which they dont. So some pro lost ONE game to hellions? oh they must be OP? get a fucking life
Hey, nice that for once I get a reply from you, as you have yet chosen to avoid any form of discussion if I replied to one of your wrong comments. And I don't choose to read what I want to read. Did or didn't you write "An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it."? You did, and apparently that is wrong, because I brought you a counterexample (basic logic). I didn't say anything about roaches, because I don't think you are wrong with it. Defensive Roaches are good vs hellions and even if it weren't for roaches, I don't think hellions are overpowered and I already wrote that I'm not sure if this buff is necessary, though I also think it won't change that much. I however do believe, that roaches are not the "the solution", because relying on them still keeps you weak against a variety of rushes (marauders) and slows down your tech, which then again forces you to go for some zergling/roach build early on, instead of early mutas or infestors. True, if you play this style no matter what like stephano does, you are really well off with roaches vs hellions. For any other style, I don't really see them working because you will not have the gas for speed+lair+some infestors/mutas at 10-11min, so you either die to marauders and maybe even banshees or you are forced to stay roach/ling (+upgrades) on lowtech. Also hellions can runby against roaches, so you still need a bunch of extra investments (speed, zerglings) to really be safe against possible mass hellion (1-2factory) variations, which you can't really scout.
Once again, why does the most balanced matchup in the game need any changes? When have hellions EVER been a problem? Blue flame was already nerfed, it requires a factory to get them, I dont even know what else to say. All I hear is "blah blah blah I dont want to get roaches and oh no he might run past my queen and kill some drones." Well guess what, theres a thing called risk/reward and if you take too much of a risk (not making roahces/spines) and somebody decides to kamakazi ten hellions into your drone line, well guess what? you deserve to lose... are we done here?
Once again, I don't think the queen change is necessary, nor do I think it will change anything big time. They might as well cut it. And you aribitrarily calling TvZ "the most" balanced MU, doesn't make it so. Of course there is something called risk/reward. Building mass drones is not a risk/reward scenario, it's what you have to do do compete with Terran 3CC openings.
Where to start? It is widely accepted that TvZ is a balanced MU, or at least it was until he snipe nerf. Not that I give a shit about Blizzards propaganda but they did come out and say that TvZ was 50% soooo.... yep. And you are basing your argument on the ASSUMPTION that every Terran player goes 3 CC? Not very failproof...
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| ETisME Hong Kong. May 06 2012 01:25. Posts 4888 | Profile Blog # |
On May 06 2012 01:03 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:59 Creem wrote:
On May 06 2012 00:07 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:58 Big J wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:48 teamhozac wrote:
On May 05 2012 23:41 latan wrote:
I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
Yeah you just suck, pretty much. If you die to hellion run bys you seriously, need to learn to play. An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it. If you really feel that zerg needs a buff once again, you need to learn to play. Make a roach warren ffs, these constant buffs and nerfs are just stupid. Remember how everyone was whining about the 1/1/1? Guess what? They figured it out, due to bigger maps, player innovation, whatever, it got figured out. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFF TO DEAL WITH HELLIONS /rant
Yeah Morrow, did you hear that. Why didn't you just build a queen, a spine and an evo chamber vs Maru. Wait you had that stuff? You even had 3 queens and zerglings and died? I guess you should take lessons by teamhozac, who is clearly a superior player to you.
You are probably the most biased, uninformed retard on this forum. you chose to read what you wanted to read, roaches. Yep thats it, one word: roaches. Those are the solution to hellions, but for some reason zerg feels like they need an easier option to deal wit hhellions, which they dont. So some pro lost ONE game to hellions? oh they must be OP? get a fucking life
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame) your roaches are pretty much worthless putting you behind significantly entering mid- to late game. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that it's nigh impossible to scout terran's decision on helions. Queen range and OL speed are great changes that will allow ZvT >early game to be less about coinflips and more about actual playerskill.
Hellion openers are not currently overpowered. There are no top Zergs complaining about them nor losing consistently to them.
Hellions opening is not the big issue here, it's the follow up that is a bit harder to deal with, especially if the first overlord was shot down or couldn't scout the key tech because you cannot use ling to scout anymore.
There is quite a bit of timing where you have to guess what the terran is doing until you either push off hellions and sent in another overlord. and on some map, it is harder to do so.
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| neoghaleon55 United States. May 06 2012 01:28. Posts 6188 | Profile Blog # |
On May 06 2012 01:22 teamhozac wrote:
Show nested quote +
Hellion openers are not currently overpowered. There are no top Zergs complaining about them nor losing consistently to them.
Holy shit did we just agree on something?
The opener itself isn't overpowered.
The transition to Hellion/Banshee/Marine all-in or Hellion/Marauder all-in is hard to see coming, and WILL kill you unless you have the appropriate static defenses....which is why Blizz is giving zerg better overlord speed.Last edit: 2012-05-06 01:28:56 |
| | moo...for DRG | |
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| sieksdekciw May 06 2012 01:32. Posts 240 | Profile # |
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame)
Rubbish. Pure rubish. Why is terran committing to 4-6 hellions; to prevent creep spreading. Otherwise terran could have done double upgrades, medivacs or some shit. Terran hopes to prevent the stupid map being full of creep spread.
And you want having queens and zerglings to be enough to chase away the hellions (which, sadly, sometimes is enough)? You don't wanna make 1 or two roaches to chase the hellions away? What do you want? To be left alone to drone and creep spread until minute 16 without YOU committing to anything else than your desired composition? I have news for you, nancy, if terran had the money to spend on 4-6 hellions, you sure as hell have the money to spend them on a roach or two. Quit whining.
By the way, about scouting. Having the fastest unit in the game, the zergling, is not enough for you to scout? Having your supply all over the map with vision on expo timings, gas timings and army movement AND the ability to block expansions for 30 seconds is not enough? Having the whole map with vision by creep tumors AND giving your units speed boost is not enough? You, sir, are a hypocrite, in the finest tradition of zerg players like Idra. Congrats.
What I really want is Blizzard to carry on with the changes. I really do. Then increase build time of rax and make it require engi bay. Then you would be able to drone till minute 30 and you don't have to make any units. |
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| teamhozac May 06 2012 01:33. Posts 404 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 01:28 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 01:22 teamhozac wrote:
Hellion openers are not currently overpowered. There are no top Zergs complaining about them nor losing consistently to them.
Holy shit did we just agree on something?
The opener itself isn't overpowered. The transition to Hellion/Banshee/Marine all-in or Hellion/Marauder all-in is hard to see coming, and WILL kill you unless you have the appropriate static defenses....which is why Blizz is giving zerg better overlord speed.
I dont think Ive ever even seen this follow up... can you post a replay? |
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| teamhozac May 06 2012 01:35. Posts 404 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 01:32 sieksdekciw wrote:
Show nested quote +
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame)
Rubbish. Pure rubish. Why is terran committing to 4-6 hellions; to prevent creep spreading. Otherwise terran could have done double upgrades, medivacs or some shit. Terran hopes to prevent the stupid map being full of creep spread. And you want having queens and zerglings to be enough to chase away the hellions (which, sadly, sometimes is enough)? You don't wanna make 1 or two roaches to chase the hellions away? What do you want? To be left alone to drone and creep spread until minute 16 without YOU committing to anything else than your desired composition? I have news for you, nancy, if terran had the money to spend on 4-6 hellions, you sure as hell have the money to spend them on a roach or two. Quit whining. By the way, about scouting. Having the fastest unit in the game, the zergling, is not enough for you to scout? Having your supply all over the map with vision on expo timings, gas timings and army movement AND the ability to block expansions for 30 seconds is not enough? Having the whole map with vision by creep tumors AND giving your units speed boost is not enough? You, sir, are a hypocrite, in the finest tradition of zerg players like Idra. Congrats. What I really want is Blizzard to carry on with the changes. I really do. Then increase build time of rax and make it require engi bay. Then you would be able to drone till minute 30 and you don't have to make any units.
How about zerg just starts with 80 drones and three hatches and we play catch up? Apparently that is what they want |
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| sieksdekciw May 06 2012 01:38. Posts 240 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 01:35 teamhozac wrote:
[
How about zerg just starts with 80 drones and three hatches and we play catch up? Apparently that is what they want
That's what they are getting. Terran, the race that is 30% less than zerg in ladder and that has no single foreigner that won any tournament but 1, is not being buffed, but zerg and toss, the races with most representation on ladder, aare being buffed. Seems legit. |
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| Gackt_ May 06 2012 01:39. Posts 328 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 01:32 sieksdekciw wrote:
Show nested quote +
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame)
By the way, about scouting. Having the fastest unit in the game, the zergling, is not enough for you to scout?
Lol, what are they gonna scout? They cant get inside roflmao.
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| Decendos Germany. May 06 2012 01:41. Posts 915 | Profile # |
| this has become a whine thread thx to teamhozac and sieksdekciw who wont stop writing false facts, ignoring arguments and obviously have no idea of the game.... |
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| ETisME Hong Kong. May 06 2012 01:44. Posts 4888 | Profile Blog # |
On May 06 2012 01:32 sieksdekciw wrote:
Show nested quote +
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame)
Rubbish. Pure rubish. Why is terran committing to 4-6 hellions; to prevent creep spreading. Otherwise terran could have done double upgrades, medivacs or some shit. Terran hopes to prevent the stupid map being full of creep spread. And you want having queens and zerglings to be enough to chase away the hellions (which, sadly, sometimes is enough)? You don't wanna make 1 or two roaches to chase the hellions away? What do you want? To be left alone to drone and creep spread until minute 16 without YOU committing to anything else than your desired composition? I have news for you, nancy, if terran had the money to spend on 4-6 hellions, you sure as hell have the money to spend them on a roach or two. Quit whining. By the way, about scouting. Having the fastest unit in the game, the zergling, is not enough for you to scout? Having your supply all over the map with vision on expo timings, gas timings and army movement AND the ability to block expansions for 30 seconds is not enough? Having the whole map with vision by creep tumors AND giving your units speed boost is not enough? You, sir, are a hypocrite, in the finest tradition of zerg players like Idra. Congrats. What I really want is Blizzard to carry on with the changes. I really do. Then increase build time of rax and make it require engi bay. Then you would be able to drone till minute 30 and you don't have to make any units.
It's much more than just denying creep spread.
It delays early 3rd, it prevents ling poking, it deny creep spread, it forces zerg to either get a lot of lings (a lot to deal with good micro'd hellions) or roaches (you are getting a roach warren and a few roaches, just so that you can deny the hellions and grab map control. you cannot rely on roaches in later stage of the game)
You CANNOT drone safely because of the massive variety of transition the terran can do, different kind of all-in, double expo etc.
It is still very similar to pre patch, queens cannot deny hellions all the way out from creep, but now it can push them out easier to sneak lings out.Last edit: 2012-05-06 01:45:09 |
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| MilesTeg France. May 06 2012 01:44. Posts 1248 | Profile # |
Well, at first I didn't like the changes too much, and I still believe it's unnecessary (Zerg seems pretty strong to me; late game is the only thing that might be weak), but it seems alright now. Not game breaking, but a nice little buff that should make ZvZ better in particular.
I hope it doesn't break ZvT though, I like playing against hellion openers and I hope we won't get 2 raxed every game again. |
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