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| ZongTG United States. May 03 2012 13:16. Posts 12 | Profile # |
Introduction:
Please note, I am a High Gold player trying to get into Plat. My analysis on things may not be right, and I'm going off of what I think. If you think you know better or you know I'm just flat out wrong, I would appreciate it if you gave feedback in a respectful manner because I'm just trying to learn this game. This build seems to work 100% of the time, so I'm taking it to TL to test it's worth. Thanks for reading, I hope you can discuss and give me some feedback!
Backstory:
So, I was helping my Bronze friend learn Protoss by playing his Bronze friend, and he went Random. Against Randoms I usually put my first pylon at the ramp, in-case they're Zerg and I have to 3gate Sentry Expand. Now, I actually hadn't done this in a while because I don't really face Random's often. He turned out to be Zerg, and while he went Roach/ Hydra on 1base and didn't expand for a while, I was able to get out sentries and zealots fast and I ended up getting immortals and upgrades pretty fast as well. So I took this to the ladder and I found this build works from what I believe 100% of the time against Zerg players in my league (who all go mass Roach because they know it works, at least at this level).
Explanation of the Build: So, the build opens up with a standard 3gate Sentry Expand, with pressure. At my league I usually never do anything with the pressure, I might be able to kill some lings, but Zergs can mass those practically for free and so I'm not really worried about it. They don't take early thirds, and instead make spines. If they don't make spines or too few spines, I can usually kill stuff until their roaches pop, which turn out to be too meaty for my Sentry/ Zealot to handle.
Back home I'm working on my probes, and I make a wall off with my Forge and my Robotics Facility. I start +1 Weapons immediately and get Immortals pumping. I throw down a Twilight Council and get Blink and +2 Weapons. At 2-3 Immortals I usually push out and kill their third, smashing whatever is in my way. At this point I just usually win because I kill their army or they're just starved.
Now, the reason I see this build as so useful is because as I've said: It just doesn't lose. I have that Sentry Immortal composition needed to take on their roaches early on, and I get stalkers out only when I need them. I get my +2 and Blink Early, and I have 5 gates to boot. Zergs just literally can't compete with the fact I have army early, and if they try they've just wasted larva. They usually always see the initial pressure coming or know it's coming, so they never take their thirds until those roaches come out. My first big Immortal push kills their third, starving them. Then I just move in carefully, and destroy them with Blink micro, and FFs if I still have any sentries left. I just really don't see any opening for a Zerg that employs Roaches against me. They have no way to beat this at my league.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/171057 - So this is the most recent Replay, done on 5/2/2012. It showcases the build. Now, this build is not refined for perfect timings (when to throw down Twilight, when to hit etc.), however every time I do this build it's done in a somewhat similar way to this.
I'll have more replays as I get them. I now know exactly what I should be doing with this build after many games and getting it down. The more Zergs I play (which seems to be many) the more replays of this I'll have. I will include up to 10 replays with small analysis on how they represent the build.
Conclusion:
So, to me this build has no openings for Gold/ Plat Zergs, and I believe I've "created" a decently economic build that gives me a safe and aggressive military edge in the beginning of the game at the cost of the very fast economy that Nexus First or FFE can get you. What I'm looking for here is if I can keep this build in my hat for the later leagues, if I should keep using it, and if I should refine it and possibly make a guide. It seems to be a promising build for me, and I'd like to see if it gives the same promise to you guys.
TL;DR:
I started using 3gate Sentry Expand as an opener in PvZ to get to things I could get with FFE faster (such as an early army). I believe I've succeeded in "creating" a good aggressive strategy that can really give you an edge in the early game and force Zergs not to take their early third.Last edit: 2012-05-03 13:25:45 |
| | "Though we strike at you from the shadows, do not think we lack the courage to stand in the light." |
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| monk United States. May 03 2012 13:19. Posts 6812 | Profile Blog # |
Get rid of those spoiler tags <.<
Also this isn't anything new and you're just outplaying your opponents. This topic has been discussed to death. Keep playing until you start losing a lot and find the weaknesses ^^. |
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 Belial88 United States. May 03 2012 13:29. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
Gold is way too low level to determine if strats are viable or not. Like you said, no one takes a third against you when that's standard response to toss taking their natural, and 1 base zerg, and roach/hydra made against anything but stargate to set up for mutas or high level aggression to end the game (or hold an all-in and counterpush for the win).
3 gate sentry expand is fine. Keep playing it, you'll get the basics of macro down. Eventually you'll probably move onto FFE.
I'm not really sure what the question here is. There's a couple FFE vs 3 gate sentry threads, and I think it's generally accepted by everyone that FFE>1/3g expands, except liquidnony last I heard from him on sotg.
Here's some advice though: if you scout zerg didn't go gas before pool (his geyser is done before pool is done, he has 100 gas mined when you click the geyser when his pool pops, ie the geyser reads 2400 instead of 2500 when it hasnt been mined at all), then you are safe to go 1 gate expand instead of 3 gate expand.
The problem with 1/3g expands is that your army will be tiny compared to what it could be with ffe, around the 8-9+ mark. It's larger earlier on, but there isn't too much you can do with 4-11 unupgraded units (or maybe you can?).
If you are going 1/3g expand, I'd aim to deny zerg's third if he took one (scout with zealot or hallu), or defend against his 2 base play (you see he didn't take a third), then try to take your own third behind either pressure vs third, or after holding vs 2 base.Last edit: 2012-05-03 13:34:02 |
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| Sated England. May 03 2012 13:41. Posts 3389 | Profile Blog # |
| Until NonY stops beating good Zergs with Gate/Core expands, no one can say it isn't viable. Keep it up! =D Last edit: 2012-05-03 13:41:56 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| Rimak Latvia. May 03 2012 14:58. Posts 408 | Profile # |
Problem with 3g sentry expand is that you have to deal some damage to zerg.
Force him to produce defensive units.
But if a zerg is good at figuring out threats you will be significantly behind.
I'm not even telling you of how much resources you lose, if you get your sentrys killed. |
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| YoureFired United States. May 03 2012 15:16. Posts 729 | Profile Blog # |
| Zergs don't take their early third true, but your own expansion is severely delayed. And one problem with this build is a roach rush, I'm unsure of the specific build but I remember several months ago when 3gate sentry expand was the go-to build, someone figured out a roach push that would just overwhelm the Protoss, even with forcefields, through sheer force of roach + burrow move. |
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| _Darwin_ United States. May 03 2012 15:43. Posts 2227 | Profile # |
| 3 gate sentry expand isn't worth it compared to FFE |
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| Rimak Latvia. May 03 2012 16:15. Posts 408 | Profile # |
Oh, and forgot to add, that there is no high-low leagues, except for Masters.
Biggest thing to understand is that if you are not in masters - you suck at the game.
If you are in masters - you suck a little less.
(I'm plat just in case)Last edit: 2012-05-03 16:17:52 |
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| Cyro United Kingdom. May 03 2012 16:16. Posts 5721 | Profile Blog # |
So, the build opens up with a standard 3gate Sentry Expand
Im sorry, its not 2010 any more |
| | Defender of Esports # "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88 # "there really isn’t any actual need to have the minerals and gas constantly displayed" - Blizzard |
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| FataLe New Zealand. May 03 2012 16:55. Posts 3622 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 13:41 Sated wrote:
Until NonY stops beating good Zergs with Gate/Core expands, no one can say it isn't viable. Keep it up! =D
Hahahahaha, I agree 100% |
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| LF9 United States. May 03 2012 17:11. Posts 537 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 16:15 Rimak wrote:
Oh, and forgot to add, that there is no high-low leagues, except for Masters.
Biggest thing to understand is that if you are not in masters - you suck at the game.
If you are in masters - you suck a little less.
(I'm plat just in case)
I'm rank 1 Platinum at the moment, and all day today I was matches vs. either top 8 Diamonds or Masters, and I held around 50% win ratio vs each category. I haven't been playing that long and am moving up, but people saying "if you aren't Master you suck" forget about fast rising new players. How else do you explain a Platinum player feeling overmatched against Diamonds and about even against Master league players?
Maybe I do suck ass at the game, but I just run into low level masters that suck harder? I don't know. But people always assume you're in wharltever league you are in because you're stuck there. That can't always be the case. Everyone has to start at some point, but if you learn and improve quicker than the system promotes you, all you can do is keep playing untilnyou hit a level that seems legitimately difficult and forces you to play standard and turn the grey matter on.Last edit: 2012-05-03 17:17:15 |
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| Belial88 United States. May 03 2012 17:15. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
On May 03 2012 15:16 YoureFired wrote:
Zergs don't take their early third true, but your own expansion is severely delayed. And one problem with this build is a roach rush, I'm unsure of the specific build but I remember several months ago when 3gate sentry expand was the go-to build, someone figured out a roach push that would just overwhelm the Protoss, even with forcefields, through sheer force of roach + burrow move.
I don't think the build that Nestea and Losira were doing included burrow move. They were basically doing the same exact roach/ling all-in they would later execute against FFE - roach warren at 35, stock up larva/overlords/money, and then send the mass roaches to toss with speedling reinforcements.
3 gate sentry expand trades a ton of tech and army size at ~9:00+ for the ability to either pressure zerg's third hard, or keep zerg on the same number of bases (if they go 2 base lair).
I don't think the build is as bad as people say it is, but a zerg player can definitely get away with being quite greedy against it and come out so far ahead that I don't know if they'll survive the mass roach or muta transition.
I mean, if you go fast third, a sentry/zealot push can be quite a lot of pressure to deal with, and you definitely sacrifice army/econ/tech at that stage of the game (perhaps not as much as P). I do think FFE is the better build, but it's not as easy as I think a lot of people make it out to be.
it's just the trade-off you make. I think the build is fine and will get you very far, probably up to masters just fine. You get more army early on, but after about 9:00 you are definitely behind. Last edit: 2012-05-03 17:16:23 |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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| LF9 United States. May 03 2012 17:21. Posts 537 | Profile # |
| I'm sorry, but unless you know your opponent and are seriously metagaming him, you should open every PvZ build with a FFE. Otherwise, if the game is anything close to normal, you're just behind by default. Last edit: 2012-05-03 17:22:11 |
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| Belial88 United States. May 03 2012 17:46. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
^ What about maps like crossfire or XNC? Isn't ffe just not viable on those maps due to roach/ling?
And he's in gold league. 3 gate sentry expand is fine for him. |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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| Bwiggly United States. May 03 2012 17:55. Posts 141 | Profile Blog # |
On May 03 2012 17:46 Belial88 wrote:
^ What about maps like crossfire or XNC? Isn't ffe just not viable on those maps due to roach/ling?
And he's in gold league. 3 gate sentry expand is fine for him.
Those are also maps not in the map pool or in any tournaments, so not really a good counterarguement
but reallly all you're doing is playing safe, macroing, and outright beating your oppenents mechanically. Gate/core expands are good against Z since it throws them off by going against the current metagame, but really your build isn't actually unbeatable until proven so at the highest of levels.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say at all to stop and just blind FFE everygame. but reevaluate what you're saying. 3-gate expo was the metagame for P for a while until Nestea/Losira started using 8min roach/ling aggression while still being able to pump their economy. Last edit: 2012-05-03 17:59:30 |
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| Belial88 United States. May 03 2012 18:00. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
| Oh no, I don't disagree at all. I just think on maybe on some maps (yea, maybe those maps that are outdated and 'bad', sure) where Z can't really take a fast third and the natural is super wide open and exposed, 1/3g expands are okay. I think if you are in gold league, you can get by with 1/3g expands. But I guess that's no different than saying "just mass queens and macro well into masters". Last edit: 2012-05-03 18:00:24 |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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| Bwiggly United States. May 03 2012 18:13. Posts 141 | Profile Blog # |
| Yep yep, whatever's comfortable at that level really, and if you want tips or improvements on the style you can always watch Nony's stream/Vods as stated earlier in the thread since he really seems to dislike FFE and how restricting it is for protoss. |
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| LF9 United States. May 03 2012 19:04. Posts 537 | Profile # |
Even as a new player, though, you might as well jump into the deep end and start FFEing because the quicker you get your macro up to par, the better. I always have been an advocate of playing the PREVIOUS popular build for a little bit, just until it frustrates you and you realize why the current metagame is the way it is; in this case, that is, it is beneficial to start off 3 gate sentry expanding JUST so you can realize WHY people are all FFEing against Zerg now; you are able to make much better decisions if you come to conclusions like "FFE is the best opener against zerg because I can keep up on economy without dying" through your own experience, rather than through someone just telling you that's how it is.
That being said, though, once you get into FFEing, don't get discouraged. I'm new to ladder and 1v1ing and stuff; a month and a half ago I was clueless, losing to gold players because I couldn't get my wall ins right, and even if I did, I had no clue what to make, and now I feel relatively confident going up against low master players and stuff, and what everyone says is true; you really just need to work on macro. My problem was just the opposite of what most people have. I have RTS background, so I would NEVER stop making workers, so I'd be on 80 probes at 2 base and still pumping them out. Learned timings, when to cut, what optimal saturation is etc. which led to a better understanding of taking 3rds, etc. etc. etc. Every single thing you learn by yourself, every epiphany, if you will, increases your decision making and overall ability as a player.
Don't focus so much on getting to Platinum, leagues don't matter that much, you'd be VERY surprised how many people have 4 or 5 accounts, just focus on learning. If you go into every game with the mentality that you are going to UP YOUR GAME and play at a level you haven't played at before (with the goal being to win, obviously) rather than ONLY trying to win, which might lead to a lot of weird low level 1 base all ins or whatever the "I just want a win" builds are in the lower leagues. A win feels good, but playing a few games, a few wins and a few losses, and KNOWING that you have upped your game feel a lot better. Very satisfying. 2 months ago I couldn't manage 2 bases without floating money into outer space, and now I can enjoy macro games and, even if I lose in the end, I love taking my 5th base as my main/nat mine out and skirmish against a superior player; it's all a learning experience. Best of luck, mayn, we're all in the same boat! |
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| -Celestial- United Kingdom. May 03 2012 19:46. Posts 791 | Profile # |
They don't take early thirds, and instead make spines.
Stuff like that always makes me want to get another account to play about on the NA server to compare the difference. I play the same level as you (Gold vs Gold/Plat people) and every single zerg I face takes a fast third if I expand. Even a guy I kinda stomped last night with a ton of blink stalkers because he made a handful of mutas and lings and tried to fast tech to greater spire (yeah, I dunno what he was doing with his build either) had three bases and was getting a fourth.
In any case, I agree with the people here saying it's not your build, it's your opponents being terribad. That said I'm really not a fan of straight up FFE either. It's ok, it works; although it pretty much gifts the Z a third. I prefer variations on gateway expands. I've actually just started toying around with a couple of the timing builds that Alejandrisha posted up the other day:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333477
Of course my timings aren't down yet, but my opponents are generally pretty bad so that doesn't matter too much. |
| | "Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc |
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| DYEAlabaster Canada. May 03 2012 20:01. Posts 992 | Profile Blog # |
Naniwa says "It's ok" "FFE or die trying"
But it's true. You should always FFE because it's safe, doesn't require damage or aggression, and allows for the most followup options |
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