I keep getting killed by Colossus. How many corruptors do I need to beat like 4-6 of them?? Cause they rip through my army like butter every time! :/ Even a maxxed army seems useless vs Protoss with Colossi...
In this instance, I felt that my last attack was necessary because the Protoss player was getting his 3rd base, and I always seem to die when Protoss gets it. I felt like I was doing okay after breaking his attack though, but I didn't really know what to do from there, except attack. Which obviously failed miserably :/
I know I'm not very good, so any criticisms about my play is appreciated!
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often...
soccercasanova Argentina. May 04 2012 03:17. Posts 21
Watching replay... 2:20, you scout gateway open, no gas, and you let your drone get killed. No reason to go through the Probe line like that. 14 hatch, 14 pool, 15 gas...not sure why that order. the reason you get gas usually is to get speed right away, and in order to do that you drop it before pool. perhaps you felt zealot pressure coming? 5:45 - you run your 3 lings to die at the ramp. Leave one just outside to keep an eye of when he moves out, use the other 2 to run around and scout. Against gate first, he will always have at least a zealot, which you cant break through the front. maybe you get him to waste sentry energy. your speed is half way done. maybe you should just run one up there slow, to see if he is still on one base or expanding. then use one of the two left at the bottom to scout once more once speed has finished. Either way you should get 1 main piece of evidence from these deaths. He has a gas at least 1 gas. I just noticed. Why werent your first OLs sent to be placed around his main and natural to sacrifice scout his main and check his natural gas timing? This would have saved you the lings as well. The other bit you should know is he expanded, otherwise he wouldnt be at that ramp which would allow for a run by...which you would have been able to do since his units were at that ramp and not blocking the ramp to his main, allowing you some serious scouting without saccing the OL 6:30 I guess you realized he expanded and drop your third. you have 14 drones 155min 212 gas. speed finishes. At this point you should be saccing an OL to know tech. 6:50 sitting on 500 minerals 250 gas, 14 larva, only 26 drones, 3 of which are on gas. leaving 14 at main, 7 at Nat for minerals....No scouting done since your drone at 2:20 and your ling death at 5:45. 7:00 you drop Roach warren and second gas. 24 drones, your opponent is now ahead on workers. OL finishes putting you at 31/44. I assume you are reading for roach space...No scouting done since your drone at 2:20 and your ling death at 5:45 7:40 Start Lair, have inactive zerglings at your natural. up to 34 drones opponent has 31. you are 41/44 with OL on way. 2nd gas finished a while ago, no drones on it. No scouting done since your drone at 2:20 and your ling death at 5:45 8:10. 2 Evo chambers at nat half done, you are down workers 34-36(Toss). Lings move out, check for hidden expands, good. 8:30 you run just 1 ling in his nat and see 2 stalkers 2 zealots, no cannons or sentries that you could see. +1+1 ranged and carapace started 9:00 supply blocked 62/62 46-37(workers- 14 main, 7 nat, 13 third, 3 on first gas, still 0 on second gas, still no 3rd queen) 5 roaches building, 11 larvae left. 180 min 33 gas. 9:40 OL pops, sitting at 900 minerals, you build 5 OL and a queen 64/70 supply, now at 250 mineral 117 gas. 10:00 still have no idea what is in his base. He could be going carrier for all you know. absolutely no clue if its colossus, immortal, DT, HT. OLs pop 63/110 supply, 625 mineral, 57 gas, 45workers to 39, you drop a hydra den and are now have 3 gases, and roach speed on the way, take a 4th gas, and get 8 drones and 4 roaches. 78/110 supply@10:12. Why Hydra, assuming immortal/air? 10:30 no scout at enemy ramp or of tech. first coloussus comes out around here. 11:30 Supply blocked again, build 5 OLs at once. 12:00 he has 2nd colossi almost done and a 2nd robottics bay building. you have burrow coming. you also run a ling in and see 1 colossi for a split second. you probably dont know, but that was the first time you saw some tech - 12 minutes. you were going fully blind for 10 full minutes. (7 if you count the fact you assumed he expanded) 12:15 drop spire, i guess you did see that colossi, nice. his Thermal lance just finished 12:25 your FIRST creep tumor drops. 13:00 After seeing Colossi, you are building 8 hydras, plus 7 already out. 12 roaches, 4 lings, with +2range+2 carapace on the way. no Hyrdra range upgrade. 13:30 72-51 workers, good. One on the way to build 4th. 134/150 supply, 17 larvae, 1335 minerals, 451 gas. no scouting. on 6 gas. 14:00 ling scout at his third is killed. you start hydra range, and build Overseer. 2k min 600 gas 133/150 supply 14:20 133/150 supply. 6 corruptors, 8OL in production and 4th Hatch...no macro hatches still. 14:50 ling scouts probe leaving 3rd, gets killed by stalkers and colossi with range. 0/0/0 protoss army upgrades. 15:00 3 more hydra, 5 roach, air+1 roach speed 164/200 1500 minerals/136 gas 15:05 see Protoss army moving into Zelnaga range. 15:45 Deathball hits your first creep tumor. 186/200 5 hydra 5 roach on the way. and another queen. +2+2 about to finish. 16:00 your roaches (24 roaches) run into death ball first, with hydras(17+5) coming in from behind. you see 5 colossi behind 15-20 stalkers, and about 10 zealots. You had 40 seconds to start positioning your army concave to allow for best engagement. the corruptors were already out, you could have had them over the destructable rocks or maind to flack the colossi from behind, where there were no stalkers. your +2+2 was almost finished as well, the corruptors could have bought you those precious 5 seconds so that your army would have been in place, and your +2+2 ahead of theirs. +1+1 for toss was about 20 seconds out. None of your corruptors used corruption and focsed down the colossi.all your roaches get toasted leaving just hydra 16:40. 12 roaches 15 hydra left, 14 larva no corruptors. he is on retreat, you are 134/200 with 2815 minerals and 384 gas. he has 8 stalkers and 2 colossi 96/174, and now has his third up. his +1+1 just kicked in after getting destroyed by your +2+2 which kicked in mid battle.+ 17:10 4 roach 8 hydra take out a colossi, 7 roach 6 hydra sitting at rally point instead of with army ahead to crush. This was a chance to push and win. your queens are at over 100 energy. still have 14 larva. here is a BIG screw up 17:10-17:40 NOTHING in production, nothing, until you drop an infestation put at 17:40. 4500 minerals,900 gas still 134/200 supply with 14 larva...now he has 11 stalkers, 3 zealots, 1 colossi. 18:00 you are building 7 roach 7 hydra and pulled your force back to your sideof the map. 4420/740 min/gas 161/200supply 19:00 maxed 200/200 29 hydra, 25 roach. he now has 3 colossi with 2 more about to be done. You move out and choose to go after the destructable rocks. then are flanked by the cannons and stalker colossi cocave...with no corruptors in your army...which is fine considering yourvast army and upgrade advantage...what killed you was your engagement position. you need to pull back , sprread the concave, and go back in... you went from 200/200, to 126/200 (75 of that drones), and he lost 20 supply give or take... 75 vs 20...all because of positioning. he has no sentries, push in closer with your roaches and take out the colossi, they werent that far back. pushing in close to his army means hydras hit colossi too, taking them out faster. he still has all 4 colossi, all he lost was like 10 stalkers to you 30 hydra 25 roach. 20:00 you have 28 larva, 5500 minerals 800 gas, 8 roach 8 hydra...and you GG rage quit because of the colossi. you could have made 8 corruptors, and all the lings your heart could make, take out his colossi and over ran him with 0/2 lings.
Ok I hope that helps and isnt too mean. There are a lot of things to work on...mostly just realizing, and accepting, colossi arent hard to deal with if you have corruptors. this game was yours to lose...this toss got lucky.
Servius_Fulvius United States. May 04 2012 06:13. Posts 947
Mechanically your injects are coming along and you have a good intuition on when to place certain buildings (your corruptor timing was pretty good).
Usually, an 8 minute benchmark of 60-70 food is sufficient for three hatchery play, but since your opponent started with a weird gateway/core into nexus it throws traditional 3 hatch out the window. Nevertheless, at 8 minutes you were sitting pretty at 39 supply. You didn't receive any early pressure and put down a roach warren, 2 evo's, a lair, AND your third while putting together a small force. This really set you behind since the toss had over a ten food lead.
This may be nit-picky, but 15 hatch is dangerous in this matchup. 14pool/16hatch is more of the "standard" in the pro scene, though some will get a queen and 4 lings before hatch as well.
The first engagement went pretty well. You took out most of the army and all the colossus. Your opponent was going 2 robo off 2 base initially which means that you're not going to win direct engagements and need to wear the army down.
The biggest reasons you lost your last engagement were army positioning and no corruptors. I don't care how good your upgrade advantage is, colossus shred hydra and you let him get a good arc with the heavy hitters in back. Run away next time. You would have been better off with more roaches and spending the extra gas on corruptors.
If the toss is making a stalker/colossus deathball and you want to fight it with roaches you need 15+ corruptors to kill the colossus fast enough. This eats into your army supply, so you can't expect to straight up win an engagement.
Also, consider going to hive tech a lot quicker. A bunch of broodlords with infestor support CAN beat this composition when micro'd correctly.
Making Hydras should not be your default. Hydras fend off Void Rays and they can bust defenses which consist of exclusively sentries. But when it comes to fighting, they provide only marginal additional damage per second per resource spent compared to Roaches (and it gets worse further into the game as Roach attack upgrades scale better against armor) and they give your army a weakness which can be exploited either via a Zealot flank or by having any form of splash damage.
Build Hydras as a response to a specific situation, not blindly.
And don't panic and give up when you still have both a bank and production. You can never be certain you're really out of the game until you've lost one or the other.
Last edit: 2012-05-04 07:07:40
dacimvrl Vatican City State. May 04 2012 07:06. Posts 538
I think the biggest thing here is that you didn't have a means of dealing with the corruptors. For me, I had the same problem, and once I incorporated vikings to my build, I didn't have any problems, so corruptors is your answer.
I once read that Hydralisks perform well against gateway units, that's why I make them as a default. What unit composition do you guys suggest I use versus normal Protoss ground units (Stalkers, Zealots, Sentries and Colossi)?
I'm thinking: Gateway units (Stalkers/Zealots/Sentries): Roaches/Infestors Gateway units + Colossi: Roaches/Infestors/Corruptors Gateway units + Immortals: Roaches/Infestors/Hydras
Is that a good unit composition vs Protoss?
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often...
If Protoss goes for quick collossus (2 base), you need corruptors. The usual style right now is to take a thrid before going Collossus, in this case you should go Hive tech instead. As Crow! said, only go hydra if you need to (heavy air) or if you want to all in. In every other case you will regret it. Use lings and roaches for the start. You can transition into spire or infestation pit, as you prefer.
Gateway units (Stalkers/Zealots/Sentries): Roaches/Infestors Gateway units + Colossi: Roaches/Infestors/Corruptors Gateway units + Immortals: Roaches/Infestors/Hydras
Is that a good unit composition vs Protoss?
Ideally, yes. In practice, it rarely works like this. It's more: roaches -> spines and infestors -> broodlord. It's hard to explain but if you build a good counter to a protoss army, he will just turtle and get another base.. and your army become useless. And, as the game progress, you still have a bad army versus a perfect protoss deathball. The "standard metagame" presently is more about getting the minimal to survive any timing pushes while getting a strong economy to go to late game.
On some maps, such as antiga, it's possible to go for the "stephano 11min max" which is basically a 200/200 supply of lings/roaches at 11minutes. It's very strong, but only on maps where you can attack the protoss at multiple places at once. Otherwise, they just force field and get colossus. (As explained in the previous paragraph).
However, there are cool strats that you can try. For instance, you can go for a roaches/hydra drops (To counter the force field / turtling protoss). Or you can go for a big switch to muta once you're safe against timing pushes. There's also snute ling/bane drop play which is pretty cool to see. And then, there's all the all-in strategies to punish a greedy protoss (or to easily kill a weak opponent).
I won't lie saying that I find this matchup really hard (It's my worst one by far) and I know lots of zerg feel that way. Seriously, there's no secret.. you just need to play your A game and make sure to be very alert to all kind of cheese.
Overall here, I think you left a game you had won.
He ended this game with no ability to repoduce his army and 3 basically totally exposed Colossus with no gateway support.
I made a little video looking at this game, I think there's some areas where al ittle chage could have helped you a lot, and in this case not only help you win the game...but help you realize you were winning the game!
Hope that helps,
Check out the rest of my YouTube channel too if you want similar stuff, it's all looking at games Gold and lower
As someone stated your opening is weird, try opening 14 pool 16 hatch, then when pool pops queen + 2 lings and then overlord. If he FFE's you can transition into 3 hatch before gas, if not make a gas after the overlord an build another drone to fill the 1 supply freed up, you'll have ling speed in time for 4 gate or any other agression.
On May 04 2012 01:16 Aero1441 wrote: I keep getting killed by Colossus. How many corruptors do I need to beat like 4-6 of them?? Cause they rip through my army like butter every time! :/ Even a maxxed army seems useless vs Protoss with Colossi...
I think there has been enough discussion about your gameplay overall.
What I would suggest is to get +1 or +2 damage for air Units and overkill on the Corruptors. Against 6 Colossi getting 12+ Corruptors with Upgrades seems pretty sweet. If you are in a decent position you can just kill all the colossi, use corruption on his remaining Units, safe your Corruptors and morph Broodlords, this way your next attack will have high tier Units but he will not have any.
On May 07 2012 06:39 Aero1441 wrote: I once read that Hydralisks perform well against gateway units, that's why I make them as a default. What unit composition do you guys suggest I use versus normal Protoss ground units (Stalkers, Zealots, Sentries and Colossi)?
I'm thinking: Gateway units (Stalkers/Zealots/Sentries): Roaches/Infestors Gateway units + Colossi: Roaches/Infestors/Corruptors Gateway units + Immortals: Roaches/Infestors/Hydras
Is that a good unit composition vs Protoss?
Hydras on their own perform aweful against nearly any Protoss composition. It is a myth, that hydras are good vs Immortals. You wanna go hydra exclusively, if you want to do a big timing with roaches or very rarely with zerglings, and you really don't want to rebuild hydras. Always try to keep your hydras alive and rebuild the stuff that is in front of the hydralisks, else you might end up with a "unhealthy" composition, that is under the 2roaches per hydralisk "costefficient" ratio.
Against Colossi, you usually want to go mutalisks or broodlords asap and mostly go for roach + corruptor or roach/hydra+corruptor only to be safe until you can get those units up. My most favorite way to deal with midgame (=prebroodlord) colossus, is to never ever engage it and always baserace (and try to build up mutalisks, even if you only start them during the baserace, it's still a great idea to go for some). Most of the time when Protoss go Colossus, they try to build up a deathball army... which simply loses in basetrades most of the time.
Markwerf Netherlands. May 07 2012 19:18. Posts 2827
you can't beat a maxed protoss army with colossi without broodlords, you either have to severely outmacro the protoss so you can instantly replenish or you need to get broods. Either way a spine wall is recommended to buy time. Stalker + colossi simply kills any zerg army without broodlords because corruptors don't counter colossi effectively. Either you have to few and the colossi don't die quickly enough or you have too many and the corruptors just get ignored while your ground is being killed. Ideal number seems about 3 per colossi but you still lose the fight then.
You made no effort to identify his tech all game, until he first attacked. Nevertheless, despite having only 6 corruptors which i assume you made blindly with guesswork, you crushed his force because of superior upgrades.
After having identified that he was indeed going colossus, you continued to make a ton of hydras, which is the equivalent of a terran making mass marines against a colossus heavy army, and you attacked into him near his third with cannons on his high ground helping him out, without a single corruptor.
Despite losing the battle, you were ahead on food and had so much more minerals and gas than him banked up. You gg thinking you'd lost when you hadn't.
Your mistakes are painfully obvious.......don't overmake hydras against colossi (make more corruptors instead), scout him more diligently, and don't GG IdrA style.
Even the hydras, while countered, could have been effective with creep. The Protoss just never had a lot of stuff in front of his Colossus, and the hydra tear through the stalkers as bad as the colossus tears through them.
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