| Kharnage Australia. May 04 2012 13:52. Posts 831 | Profile # |
What would you have them do?
Terran uses the same units in lategame as early game. how can they buff or change those units without making the mid/early game a steamroll in terrans favour? |
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| Jumbled May 04 2012 13:53. Posts 1463 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 13:32 Panya wrote:
tl;dr
The idea of Terran being an early game focused race has been debated over and over. I know. This time Blizzard has made a official stance on the fact that Terrans should be the early-mid game race rather than fix imbalances caused from different parts of the game. As a player and a viewer, this is not the direction I would like to see.
I didn't get the impression that they were wedded to the idea of Terran being the early-game race, just that they were ok with it for now.
To me, the ultimate test will be whether anyone can come up with a good way to trade on that strength to achieve parity lategame, rather than just getting a fast win. If we get to the end of the year/HotS and no-one's shown anything reliable in this regard, then I'd start to get worried about the lack of major changes. |
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| Danyl Canada. May 04 2012 13:54. Posts 85 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 13:49 divito wrote:
I'm not sure how there is such an uproar over TvP in the first place. Under the design of Terran, it's almost a cinch for them to win on strong pushes and mid-game play versus Protoss, that I'm not sure why they are even getting to the late game, or why they haven't done enough damage to the Protoss to make it an easier victory in the late game.
Because if a player scouts any attack, and prepares properly and micros properly, any attack can be defended without major losses -- barring BO losses. Anything else and said attack would be impossibly overpowered, it is the design of the game.
And so if being successful as a terran REQUIRES you to have done economically crippling damage in a mid-game attack, then in theoretically perfect play the protoss should always come out of it without having received that necessary damage, Thus, in theory, if two players play completely perfectly the protoss will win in the lategame. |
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| WeaponX.7 Canada. May 04 2012 13:55. Posts 41 | Profile # |
| Here's the problem, damage done in the early doesnt matter once both sides hit 200/200 and in that late game. So basically blizzard just told terrans that they must win before the late game. If a terran drops and kills probes and snnipes a couple tech structures but cant finish the protoss off, what difference does that play if the protoss survives and maxes out? It means nothing. |
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| Danyl Canada. May 04 2012 13:55. Posts 85 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 13:52 Kharnage wrote:
What would you have them do?
Terran uses the same units in lategame as early game. how can they buff or change those units without making the mid/early game a steamroll in terrans favour?
Make high-tech units useful? |
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| laharl23 United States. May 04 2012 13:55. Posts 577 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 13:52 Charger wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:49 divito wrote:
I'm not sure how there is such an uproar over TvP in the first place. Under the design of Terran, it's almost a cinch for them to win on strong pushes and mid-game play versus Protoss, that I'm not sure why they are even getting to the late game, or why they haven't done enough damage to the Protoss to make it an easier victory in the late game.
Um...that point is exactly what the uproar is about... No one wants to play or watch a TvP where we just wait for the 1 or 2 base all in to happen.
My god they aren't saying that you have to end the game with a 1-2 base all in, they are saying because terran is very mobile with drops/bio and toss kind of just has to sit in their base during the early/mid game that terran has to get an advantage and take it into the late game.
One gsl protosses start doing well and all of a sudden pvt is out of control, but people forget about the last 5 tvt finals we had before that -.- balance whines never end well, people only read what they want to see and completely miss the point of what blizzard is trying to say. |
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| LlamaNamedOsama United States. May 04 2012 13:55. Posts 1577 | Profile Blog # |
Guess I'll start practicing my 1-1-1...
I mean, not surprising that MVP played the way he did against Naniwa given this state of affairs/blizzard's attitude. |
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| SniXSniPe United States. May 04 2012 13:55. Posts 1448 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 13:52 Kharnage wrote:
What would you have them do?
Terran uses the same units in lategame as early game. how can they buff or change those units without making the mid/early game a steamroll in terrans favour?
Get rid of energy on Thors to start with.
Or maybe make Feedback deal no damage to mechanical units.
Something like that... I don't know. It's better than how it currently is. |
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| Charger United States. May 04 2012 13:56. Posts 2347 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 13:52 Kharnage wrote:
What would you have them do?
Terran uses the same units in lategame as early game. how can they buff or change those units without making the mid/early game a steamroll in terrans favour?
Make one or both of our T3 end game units (thors and BCs) not have energy. HTs counters both bio and thors/BCs.
Last edit: 2012-05-04 13:59:27 |
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| ShakaDEVIRGO Mexico. May 04 2012 13:56. Posts 106 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 13:43 SolidMoose wrote:
Wow that's awful. Regardless of advantages in early or mid game, every non mirror should push for each race to be viable in the late game no matter what. Otherwise games turn into 1-2 base allins. If that's their idea of balance, I'm disappointed.
they never openly stated that you needed to all in. check some puma or mkp games you will see that most of the time ,when they are gearing towards late game , they will push (mostly from 9:00 to 13 then a moment of calmless this usally last 1 min and they will regroup vikings and ghost) with various objectives like: denying 3rd, trading armies ,expand behind most of the time a 9 min 3rd mostly with marines so that they have the necesary infrastructure to combat the tech swithces in late game this in turn snowballs towards the p although you will not see inmediate effects but later on they will matter a lot ,well thats my impression of that statement from blizzard and im only high master so take it with a grain of salt
sorry for my bad english |
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| Bagration United States. May 04 2012 13:57. Posts 10876 | Profile Blog # |
| Doesn't seem to be any that comes to too much surprise. Bio with Stim absolutely kills pre-AoE Protoss. |
| | Team Slayers, Axiom and Vile forever |
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| laLAlA[uC] Canada. May 04 2012 13:57. Posts 946 | Profile Blog # |
| This has been around since brood war... Terran is strongest late game. They have to turtle with their mech army and the Protoss just has to mass expand and get really huge or break terran early in order to win. |
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| EienShinwa United States. May 04 2012 13:57. Posts 651 | Profile # |
| So Blizzard is officially admitting that Terran has an "advantage (imbalanced)" early-mid game while Protoss has an "advantage(imbalanced)" late game. For real? Blizzard should be striving to balance all three races at all stages of the game - early, middle, and late. By stating that a race has a clear advantage at one time in the game and another at a different is saying that the game has a flaw in design. I'm as upset as the OP... |
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| Coramoor Canada. May 04 2012 13:58. Posts 444 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 13:46 AlexanderDebois wrote:
You should not have to rely on your opponent making a mistake in order to win. The top toss are getting better at holding 15 min or earlier timings. If IMMvP simply had to hold all aggression in the first 15 mins in order to win he would have a 100% winrate versus toss.
that is one of the worst comparisons i have ever seen, cause the context is meaningless, cause if protoss was terran and terran was protoss in terms of unit strength, we'd be seeing the same thing but in reverse, most people are annoyed by the fact protoss struggles so much in the early game and terran struggles so much in the late game, the player who is playing is meaningless in this case |
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| superstartran United States. May 04 2012 13:58. Posts 1307 | Profile # |
| Put back KA into the game and buff EMP back to the old beta radius (where it was fucking massive), problem solved. Issue is that people think KA was so OP when they didn't realize their EMP was massively bigger than Storm before (back in the beta thing was massive). Game becomes more fun to watch, Terran has options late game in that they no longer need like 800 ghosts to EMP P armies down. Last edit: 2012-05-04 13:59:00 |
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| Gamegene United States. May 04 2012 13:58. Posts 6657 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 13:49 divito wrote:
I'm not sure how there is such an uproar over TvP in the first place. Under the design of Terran, it's almost a cinch for them to win on strong pushes and mid-game play versus Protoss, that I'm not sure why they are even getting to the late game, or why they haven't done enough damage to the Protoss to make it an easier victory in the late game.
If you said this a year ago you'd be correct, but as is, Protoss players are playing extremely passive/defensive styles that mitigate Terran midgame aggression.
Stalkers in the main, forcefields at the ramp, cannons templar pairings at the corner of bases. The main mistake Protoss players make is trying to take a third base they can't adequately defend.
Against a 3 base style, 5 Barracks Medivac Aggression is becoming more reliant on elevating the entire army into the main and just hoping the Protoss player is out of position enough, otherwise your third command center will be mining just before the Protoss player takes his fourth or makes his first deathball push. |
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| mordk May 04 2012 13:59. Posts 7019 | Profile Blog # |
| Isn't this also commonplace in BW? Particularly in TvZ if my memory serves me right. It doesn't mean there won't be a lategame, it doesn't mean there's no chance terran can win vs protoss in the lategame, you're reading it wrong. What Blizz was trying to say is that to increase their chances of winning terran should try to do damage in the midgame, where they have a substantial advantage. OP is making it seem like this philosophy is attempting to destroy terran macro play, which is clearly not the point the post was trying to make. |
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| xelnaga_empire May 04 2012 14:00. Posts 100 | Profile # |
After reading the responses to the recently posted balance update, we’ve seen that a lot of players wanted us to elaborate on the current state of the terran versus protoss late game. Before we begin the longer explanation, it’s worth pointing out that we didn’t originally comment on TvP because, overall, this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing, tournament results and ladder data.
We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage. That said, we also know that terran players have a lot of offensive capability and harassment options at their fingertips in the mid-game. If terran players press that mid-game advantage, then protoss can’t necessarily get into the late game at their full potential, which can nullify any advantage they might have had. So, pressing that mid-game advantage is important (just as it would be important for protoss players to mitigate mid-game damage so they can to move into the late game in the strongest possible position). Ultimately, each game plays out differently, and depending on how the two races enter the late game, each side has a fair chance to win.
StarCraft II is designed with asymmetric design principles. We like having these differences between the races, as long as no one race or tactic offers a significant advantage. To put it another way, mirror matches already show us what StarCraft II looks like when both opposing forces have identical strengths at each stage of the game. In non-mirror matches we intentionally work to provide diverse strategies that make use of asymmetric design to produce varied, fun and interesting games, while maintaining excellent overall balance. That does mean that at different stages of the game, one race might have tools which represent an advantage against the others--though it’s important that those advantages can always be mitigated by good play.
All of this comes with an important caveat. We are already keeping a close eye on things and observing all stages of the game. If we start seeing our global ladder results shift dramatically or TvP win/loss ratios start to heavily favor one side or the other in major tournaments, we will deal with the situation accordingly.
Translation: Oops, we at Blizzard messed up the design. Sorry Terran players, wait until HoTS for us to fix this problem!
Last edit: 2012-05-04 14:00:21 |
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| Treva United States. May 04 2012 14:00. Posts 530 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 13:52 Kharnage wrote:
What would you have them do?
Terran uses the same units in lategame as early game. how can they buff or change those units without making the mid/early game a steamroll in terrans favour?
People aren't asking for buffs to mmmvg, we're asking for a way to make the other half of our units viable in the MU. It's not like we use the same units early game and late game necessarily because we want to, we're practically forced to. |
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| Aristotle7 United States. May 04 2012 14:01. Posts 114 | Profile Blog # |
WoW, I am surpised Blizzard openly admitted their approach to balancing TvP. LoL. This has been obvious for a long time.
Oh, well, here's to tvp 1/2 base-ing for life. |
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