TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 26

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On May 04 2012 23:01 owlofhell wrote:

Me and half of the other terrans...

Not so long ago i recall a poll on teamliquid "whats your worst matchup?". What do you know, even tho it was to all people, it ended up a huge whine-fest between terran and protoss, because 70% of terrans chose TvP as their wealest match-up. Well, its obviously a huge troll, all terrans decided vote for TvP just for kicks, to stir things up.

Really, why people keep thinking that they now exactly the reason why things are wrong, despite having suffisent knowledge about the problem?

P.S. I recently tried out protoss, just for kicks (got my hands on a guest past). I'm plat terran, never played protoss before, literally. After 4 hours of play + some research, i got to plat and growing higer and faster than my terran acc. Well, its obviously cause my hands are better suited to plat protoss.

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On May 04 2012 22:52 Shiori wrote:

You suck at the matchup, yes. I don't see why this is so difficult to accept. Tonnes of (even pro) players are notoriously awful at particular matchups despite being very good at others. In March I had something like a 30% winrate in PvZ, but now it's a contender for my best matchup. It has little to do with balance. You're just doing something wrong.

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On May 04 2012 23:07 MVega wrote:
Wow it's like 25 pages of people mostly not even reading what the guy said. He didn't say, imply, or condone Terran being a mid-game focused race. He said that Terrans need to take advantage of the tools they've been given in order to come out ahead in the late game. Meaning that as Terran you can't play passive against protoss if you hope to do well in the late game. Which is a fair statement, and it's what you should be doing as Terran anyway.

This is actually a good thing for us as spectators, because it encourages Terran to be more active in the mid-game so that they enter the late game on more even footing. So we get more entertaining games. For me, TvP is the second most boring match-up right after PvP, when it goes into a macro game because it's just two players not being very active.

Short version: Blizzard just told you how to win macro games vs protoss so you don't have to rely on 1-2 base play. Be more active in the mid-game.

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On May 04 2012 22:29 mcc wrote:

Nice of you in your righteous anger to miss the point.

You said : "So what if the protoss wants to push mid-game? Or what if the terran wants to go mass expand?". This implies that you want nothing to constraint what the races can do and I took it to the absurd, but logical conclusion. The point is that there are things Blizzard decided that races should not be able to do, otherwise there is no point of having 3 races. The races should not just be different in the units they can build, but also how you are playing them in different phases of the game. They are also not saying that they gave terran lategame disadvantage. They said that if terrans do not play correctly in the midgame they will have disadvantage in the lategame. That is completely different from what you are attributing them.

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On May 04 2012 23:05 TeeTS wrote:


A while ago, there was a poll on TL about best and worst matchups. And guess what, nearly every terran (about 70% or so) had TvP as his worst matchup. Do you really think this is just a fluke? And while ZvT seemed to be most comfortable for the major number of zerg players, most Terrans do quite well in TvZ, or at least don't feel an imbalance here. Why that? If TvZ was just imbalanced (if these Terrans would just be bad players and therefor not be able to beat the Protoss), then TvZ has to be hugely terran favored, since those bad players seem to be able to beat zerg on a regular basis, while lacking skill. But then Zerg players would see ZvT as their best/most comfortable matchup and would complain about it. But they don't, so TvZ might be pretty ok as it is right now. So Terrans seem to be not as bad as all protoss want the world to believe. But wait, what does this mean for TvP?

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On May 04 2012 23:01 owlofhell wrote:

Me and half of the other terrans...

Not so long ago i recall a poll on teamliquid "whats your worst matchup?". What do you know, even tho it was to all people, it ended up a huge whine-fest between terran and protoss, because 70% of terrans chose TvP as their wealest match-up. Well, its obviously a huge troll, all terrans decided vote for TvP just for kicks, to stir things up.

Really, why people keep thinking that they now exactly the reason why things are wrong, despite having suffisent knowledge about the problem?

P.S. I recently tried out protoss, just for kicks (got my hands on a guest past). I'm plat terran, never played protoss before, literally. After 4 hours of play + some research, i got to plat and growing higer and faster than my terran acc. Well, its obviously cause my hands are better suited to plat protoss.

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This game isn't balanced around low leagues. If it were, the Baneling would have been nerfed against the Marine.

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On May 04 2012 23:14 owlofhell wrote:


So, i was right. Feels good to see that your opponent admitted defeat ;D

On a sidenote, a good small nerf for P will be to restrict amount of units that you are available to warp in off one pylon to X (arou 4-6 i think) for 20-30 seconds (less that warp cycle). That way it won't hinder any early agression from P, while forcing P to warp lategame reinforcments (infamous 20 zealots) somewhere in other place. Of course, just more proxies could be thrown, but that means more targets for T. Because really, when P warps 20 zealots, i make 20 marines, 5 marauders and maybe few ghosts in late-game (yes i have >15 rax usually). Problem is, zealots are RIGHT THERE, together, why my reinforcmetns slowly making their way to battlefiled.

Tho why im saying that, noone cares about it anyway. Oh well, better go play some more PvT, even if it demands more skill from me, i WILL beat it!

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On May 04 2012 23:17 jdsowa wrote:
Typical lategame armies:

Zerg: T2, T3, AOE
Protoss: T2, T3, AOE
Terran: squishy T1 units, no AOE except maybe some EMPs

Terran response: "We can't win lategame!"

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On May 04 2012 23:14 owlofhell wrote:


So, i was right. Feels good to see that your opponent admitted defeat ;D

On a sidenote, a good small nerf for P will be to restrict amount of units that you are available to warp in off one pylon to X (arou 4-6 i think) for 20-30 seconds (less that warp cycle). That way it won't hinder any early agression from P, while forcing P to warp lategame reinforcments (infamous 20 zealots) somewhere in other place. Of course, just more proxies could be thrown, but that means more targets for T. Because really, when P warps 20 zealots, i make 20 marines, 5 marauders and maybe few ghosts in late-game (yes i have >15 rax usually). Problem is, zealots are RIGHT THERE, together, why my reinforcmetns slowly making their way to battlefiled.

Tho why im saying that, noone cares about it anyway. Oh well, better go play some more PvT, even if it demands more skill from me, i WILL beat it!

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On May 04 2012 23:20 Fencer710 wrote:

I think that giving Pylons a small amount of Energy is a much more elegant solution, and have a pylon spend between 1 and 10 energy to warp in a single unit, and spawn with about 25 energy.

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On May 04 2012 23:20 Inex wrote:
Terran still has the better mobility and a cheaper army. Stimmed marauders eat buildings like waffles and it's not even funny. Try hitting a planetary with 8 zealots and try to accomplish the same. It's all about using the right tools you are given. That's why it's a strategy game. Obviously hitting a maxed out tier 3 protoss head on might not be the best ideas. Weaken his economy and eventually the toss will crumble.

Not to mention that some terrans just stim attack into a retreating toss and eat a few storms in the process. Mass marauder/medivac/ghost is still pretty darn good against a maxed tier 3 toss army.

I find the MU pretty balanced, might even give terran a mid game advantage, which they should capitalize on, or not complain at all.

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On May 04 2012 23:11 Ccx55 wrote:


Mass expand is a strategy. Brood lord is a unit. Your logic is so obviously flawed, it's difficult to see if you're being sarcastic. Are you suggesting that the only way to make protoss diversified from terran is to weaken them from early-mid pushes? Maybe for Blizzard, considering they don't seem to have any logic on the team at all.

Reduce the tank minimum range, remove the overkill of viking rockets, decrease the build time of reactors etc. would diversify and buff terran's late game.
Decrease warp gate cooldown, give cannons 7 range, decrease the research time of charge, increase sentry energy regenration etc. would diversify and buff protoss' mid game.
To make up for it, give the zerg bonuses like cheaper spine crawlers or faster roaches.

See? There are countless ways of fixing the problem. Not only the ones I suggested.
The worst possible thing in any strategy game is to limit the player's opportunities and strategies. Somewhat limited works, but not so drastically like TvP.

The first Supreme Commander is a prime example of a proper strategy game with fairly diverse factions.

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This is actually a good thing for us as spectators, because it encourages Terran to be more active in the mid-game so that they enter the late game on more even footing.

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On May 04 2012 23:17 jdsowa wrote:
Typical lategame armies:

Zerg: T2, T3, AOE
Protoss: T2, T3, AOE
Terran: squishy T1 units, no AOE except maybe some EMPs

Terran response: "We can't win lategame!"

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On May 04 2012 23:26 mcc wrote:

So ? Not all strategies should be viable. 5 nexus before gate is not viable and I would say it is a good thing ?

This of course has nothing to do with your rant against the Blizzard statement. They were talking balance, you are talking general game design. Are you saying they should completely rework WoL in a minor patch before HoTS ? Because all your proposed changes seem like an easy fix only in your head.

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