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| SiNKami United States. May 04 2012 14:02. Posts 1788 | Profile Blog # |
| I think TvP is pretty balanced. If everyone stops trying to be so greedy and play the game how it should be played, then terran should have no problems preventing the protoss from teching and getting weird unit compositions to attack move and win with. I never have any problems tvp simply because I dont 1 rax expand, 15 cc, or do that lame 10 minute 2 base medivac timing anymore because they can picked apart pretty easily. all you need to do is just play the game as a terran knowing how to push your advanatages and play with them accordingly. Im not saying 3 rax every gmae but if you see a protoss 4 gating, why not build 3 rax instead of building a cc and complaining about toss being imba when they break your nat/ramp? |
| | Im black. TrainerRedNA.382 "It's not about how many fights you've won, it's about who you've fought" |
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| S_SienZ May 04 2012 14:02. Posts 1833 | Profile # |
Protoss players say it's fair to have a mid game advantage for a weaker lategame, when in reality no P in their right mind would want to swap.
The game will only get later as time goes on, it's incredibly suffocating to constantly play with a ticking time bomb over your face.
It's fine having phases where one race is stronger than the other, but ultimate late game should be a relatively even playing field. It's retarded that players can generally guess who wins by looking at the replay length. |
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| Gamegene United States. May 04 2012 14:03. Posts 6841 | Profile Blog # |
It's a very easy thing to say that "Terran has to do damage in the midgame".
It's hard to do that against a competent player who knows that as well. Losing medivacs full of units is effectively 10 supply and a lot of gas wasted. |
| | "My love for Jaedong is like this: when I think of him practicing for 14 hours a day, my heart hurts and I want to massage his shoulders and make hot soups for him." |
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| SolidMoose United States. May 04 2012 14:03. Posts 1143 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 13:52 Kharnage wrote:
What would you have them do?
Terran uses the same units in lategame as early game. how can they buff or change those units without making the mid/early game a steamroll in terrans favour?
The ghost? Which only comes into play late game, yet they nerfed it. Or nerf HT/Archon, which are also only a late game issue. |
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| Charger United States. May 04 2012 14:04. Posts 2348 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 13:55 laharl23 wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:52 Charger wrote:
On May 04 2012 13:49 divito wrote:
I'm not sure how there is such an uproar over TvP in the first place. Under the design of Terran, it's almost a cinch for them to win on strong pushes and mid-game play versus Protoss, that I'm not sure why they are even getting to the late game, or why they haven't done enough damage to the Protoss to make it an easier victory in the late game.
Um...that point is exactly what the uproar is about... No one wants to play or watch a TvP where we just wait for the 1 or 2 base all in to happen.
My god they aren't saying that you have to end the game with a 1-2 base all in, they are saying because terran is very mobile with drops/bio and toss kind of just has to sit in their base during the early/mid game that terran has to get an advantage and take it into the late game. One gsl protosses start doing well and all of a sudden pvt is out of control, but people forget about the last 5 tvt finals we had before that -.- balance whines never end well, people only read what they want to see and completely miss the point of what blizzard is trying to say.
No, TvP has been progressively getting worse for a long time. Believe it or not, mid game harass is much harder when the other player is sitting in their base defending. |
| | It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. (屮◣_◢)屮 Charger#1101 |
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| larse May 04 2012 14:05. Posts 1095 | Profile Blog # |
Now I start to feel the statement is utterly stupid.
Every race should have equal power in the late-game. Why? Because Late-game is not a relative term in SC2. What Late-game means is a 200 vs 200 standoff or clash. If one race has a disadvantage in this max-out situation, it's simply unfair. Guess what people would do then? They will not let the game go into this 200 vs 200 situation. They will try to win the game before max-out. There is no other way out. I simply don't think this is a good design philosophy. |
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| Gamegene United States. May 04 2012 14:05. Posts 6841 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 14:02 AeroEffect wrote:
I think TvP is pretty balanced. If everyone stops trying to be so greedy and play the game how it should be played, then terran should have no problems preventing the protoss from teching and getting weird unit compositions to attack move and win with. I never have any problems tvp simply because I dont 1 rax expand, 15 cc, or do that lame 10 minute 2 base medivac timing anymore because they can picked apart pretty easily. all you need to do is just play the game as a terran knowing how to push your advanatages and play with them accordingly. Im not saying 3 rax every gmae but if you see a protoss 4 gating, why not build 3 rax instead of building a cc and complaining about toss being imba when they break your nat/ramp?
We're not even talking about that. |
| | "My love for Jaedong is like this: when I think of him practicing for 14 hours a day, my heart hurts and I want to massage his shoulders and make hot soups for him." |
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| acrimoneyius United States. May 04 2012 14:06. Posts 973 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 13:57 laLAlA[uC] wrote:
This has been around since brood war... Terran is strongest late game. They have to turtle with their mech army and the Protoss just has to mass expand and get really huge or break terran early in order to win.
A critical difference are the engines both games use. BW wasn't as systematic/deterministic as SC2 is. |
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| Tyree May 04 2012 14:07. Posts 1508 | Profile # |
What they said is spot on, Terran has a plethora of options on harassing Toss, so that late game is not "equal".
Basically BW Terran =/= SC2 Terran, this is no longer the turtle race. Protoss has taken that role in SC2. |
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| PeachTea United States. May 04 2012 14:08. Posts 148 | Profile Blog # |
| TvP is an absurdly boring match up nowadays. Terran either does early game pressure, mid game push with drops, 1/1/1 all in on 1 base or 2 base, and then proceeds to mmmvg. Protoss either does and early all in, mid game all in, or pushes for the late game with HT/Collosus/zealot/stalker/and whatever else they want to do; while doing this they put pressure on whenever possible. Sure the match up may be balanced, but it is completely stale that each race is set into the same rhythm and unit compositions almost every game. Id rather have a weaker terran midgame and stronger lategame OR make protoss's mid game stronger when in macro mode. |
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| CHOMPMannER Canada. May 04 2012 14:08. Posts 175 | Profile # |
what happens if u cant pressure a protoss because they just never leave their base!!
derp 200 max army derp 1 a FF 3 TTT GG
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| | http://www.ipstarcraft.com/ --iPCHOMP |
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| Gamegene United States. May 04 2012 14:09. Posts 6841 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 14:07 Tyree wrote:
What they said is spot on, Terran has a plethora of options on harassing Toss, so that late game is not "equal".
Basically BW Terran =/= SC2 Terran, this is no longer the turtle race. Protoss has taken that role in SC2.
So where's my stasis field, recall and carriers. Gimme. |
| | "My love for Jaedong is like this: when I think of him practicing for 14 hours a day, my heart hurts and I want to massage his shoulders and make hot soups for him." |
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| xelnaga_empire May 04 2012 14:09. Posts 100 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 14:02 S_SienZ wrote:
Protoss players say it's fair to have a mid game advantage for a weaker lategame, when in reality no P in their right mind would want to swap.
The game will only get later as time goes on, it's incredibly suffocating to constantly play with a ticking time bomb over your face.
It's fine having phases where one race is stronger than the other, but ultimate late game should be a relatively even playing field. It's retarded that players can generally guess who wins by looking at the replay length.
^^^
This. What's the point of watching a TvsP game that has exceeded the 25 minute mark if we know it's a foregone conclusion that P will win? Blizzard should just put a countdown timer on the Terran player's screen and if they don't beat the timer, the Terran player loses!
This is just bad game design by Blizzard. Last edit: 2012-05-04 14:12:55 |
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| windsupernova Mexico. May 04 2012 14:09. Posts 5272 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 13:59 mordk wrote:
Isn't this also commonplace in BW? Particularly in TvZ if my memory serves me right. It doesn't mean there won't be a lategame, it doesn't mean there's no chance terran can win vs protoss in the lategame, you're reading it wrong. What Blizz was trying to say is that to increase their chances of winning terran should try to do damage in the midgame, where they have a substantial advantage. OP is making it seem like this philosophy is attempting to destroy terran macro play, which is clearly not the point the post was trying to make.
This. But why bother pointing this out when people will read whatever they want to.
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| | "Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games |
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| Nizzy United States. May 04 2012 14:10. Posts 838 | Profile Blog # |
Give reapers 2 spider mines that do 20 area of effect damage (150/150) upgrade
Give Terrans the Warhound because Thors are kind of garbage
Give tanks 40 base damage (buff vs zealots, nerf vs everything else)
This would help spread the Terran army out, the spider mines would give them a nice perimeter style play again.
Terran needs to be a good mix of bio/mech. Opening reapers with some spider mines would help defend early fast expand to promote macro games/longer/better games. |
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| MasterKang United States. May 04 2012 14:10. Posts 1372 | Profile # |
I agree completely. I don't think it is fair for blizzard to intentionally leave an imbalance in the mid-game because it may force certain terran players to play a style they don't want to. Some terrans, Thorzain for example, are in general very passive and play a passive macro style because of their confidence in their late game ability.
By forcing to terrans to always play aggressive mid-game, I would say they're making the game LESS exciting/varied by limiting the styles that terrans can play, which according to their goals would be counter-productive. |
| | Players: MMA, Boxer, Ryung, Life, TaeJa, Squirtle, Brown, Dark, |
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| Avril_Lavigne United States. May 04 2012 14:13. Posts 445 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 13:58 superstartran wrote:
Put back KA into the game and buff EMP back to the old beta radius (where it was fucking massive), problem solved. Issue is that people think KA was so OP when they didn't realize their EMP was massively bigger than Storm before (back in the beta thing was massive). Game becomes more fun to watch, Terran has options late game in that they no longer need like 800 ghosts to EMP P armies down.
What???? The KA was CLEARLY BLATANTLY overpowered and utterly imbalanced. EMP and mobius reactor doesn't even come close to how imbalanced the kaydarian amulet was. First of all, you can INSTANTLY warp in HT and INSTANTLY have 75 energy to storm. A defensive reaction that requires zero strategy and zero defensive preparation making ANY form of harrass become remotely useless. Terran on the other hand HAVE to wait for ghosts to finish their train time. Not an immediate reaction upon scouting something but an offensive/defensive strategic preparation. HT's have the cool down but the instant warp in is much more powerful than a training time that of the ghost and all terran units for that matter. Also, the HT KA makes it 100% impossible or to be less biased, 100% more difficult for Terran to have a defenders advantage after an army trade. |
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| Angel_ United States. May 04 2012 14:14. Posts 1616 | Profile Blog # |
so, "Different races are different" and some of the same stuff everyone has basically agreed on for the past two months?
Is the problem for people that they expect every race to play the same way? |
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| Penecks United States. May 04 2012 14:15. Posts 565 | Profile # |
While I'll agree that Terran is quite strong in the mid game once medivacs and bio upgrades are out, I'm not sure why this is generally extended to the early game as well: a number of 1base Protoss allins are still very viable even at the pro level, including (proxy) stargates, and blink builds. I mean when's the last time a 3rax has killed anyone. I guess 111 can be argued to be an "early game" attack, but considering counters to it generally involve a Toss FE, that's pretty debatable. What else? Fast cloaked banshee I guess? Which is quite predictable at this point if you are actually doing it.
So if we assume the early game (0-7mins~?) is even, the midgame (8-14ish~) is T dominated, and anything after is P dominated, you basically have a several minute window where you better kill an assload of workers, snipe a nexus, some tech, or do some major cost effective trading, or enter the P dominated endgame which doesn't have an upper limit: you are simply at a further disadvantage until you lose. Of course, if either you or the protoss do nothing (as I imagine happens pretty often in lower leagues) he immediately gains an advantage. |
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| CakeSauc3 United States. May 04 2012 14:15. Posts 313 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 14:05 Gamegene wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:02 AeroEffect wrote:
I think TvP is pretty balanced. If everyone stops trying to be so greedy and play the game how it should be played, then terran should have no problems preventing the protoss from teching and getting weird unit compositions to attack move and win with. I never have any problems tvp simply because I dont 1 rax expand, 15 cc, or do that lame 10 minute 2 base medivac timing anymore because they can picked apart pretty easily. all you need to do is just play the game as a terran knowing how to push your advanatages and play with them accordingly. Im not saying 3 rax every gmae but if you see a protoss 4 gating, why not build 3 rax instead of building a cc and complaining about toss being imba when they break your nat/ramp?
We're not even talking about that.
We are though.
What he's saying is Terran shouldn't be opening up a TvP game with a build that's oriented towards late-game aggression; instead, Terran should open up with a pressure build.
I study how MKP plays TvP, and that's how I try to play it, as well. As a result, my TvP is by far my best matchup. Opening with a 2 rax pressure or 3 rax heavy attack is so much better than going for early CC. Protoss tech needs to be delayed by force, or else they *will* destroy your pathetic bio army once their splash damage units are being produced.
Just as in TvZ Terran must pressure Zerg to keep their economy down, in TvP Terran must pressure Protoss to keep their tech down. If you challenge Zerg to a No Rush 20 build, you generally lose; if you challenge Protoss to a No Rush 20 build, same dif. |
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