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| S2Glow Singapore. May 04 2012 14:51. Posts 990 | Profile Blog # |
| i do agree with blizzard though , for sc2 i love watching all-ins o_o because this demonstrate real micro and decision making on whats the next move better then a macro death ball match. |
| | <3 Katelyn , C Zerg. Dying wish is to watch proleague live and see my girlfriend which gonna be soon! <33 |
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| S_SienZ May 04 2012 14:53. Posts 1800 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 14:51 S2Glow wrote:
i do agree with blizzard though , for sc2 i love watching all-ins o_o because this demonstrate real micro and decision making on whats the next move better then a macro death ball match.
If you think people only really micro and make decisions during all-ins. You probably suck really hard at multitasking. |
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| IMoperator May 04 2012 14:55. Posts 1658 | Profile # |
| Blizzard needs to simultaneously nerf terran early/midgame and either buff terran lategame or nerf protoss lategame imo. |
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| Nothing- United States. May 04 2012 14:56. Posts 5 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 14:32 CakeSauc3 wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:27 Jono7272 wrote:
On May 04 2012 14:15 CakeSauc3 wrote:
On May 04 2012 14:05 Gamegene wrote:
On May 04 2012 14:02 AeroEffect wrote:
I think TvP is pretty balanced. If everyone stops trying to be so greedy and play the game how it should be played, then terran should have no problems preventing the protoss from teching and getting weird unit compositions to attack move and win with. I never have any problems tvp simply because I dont 1 rax expand, 15 cc, or do that lame 10 minute 2 base medivac timing anymore because they can picked apart pretty easily. all you need to do is just play the game as a terran knowing how to push your advanatages and play with them accordingly. Im not saying 3 rax every gmae but if you see a protoss 4 gating, why not build 3 rax instead of building a cc and complaining about toss being imba when they break your nat/ramp?
We're not even talking about that.
We are though. What he's saying is Terran shouldn't be opening up a TvP game with a build that's oriented towards late-game aggression; instead, Terran should open up with a pressure build. I study how MKP plays TvP, and that's how I try to play it, as well. As a result, my TvP is by far my best matchup. Opening with a 2 rax pressure or 3 rax heavy attack is so much better than going for early CC. Protoss tech needs to be delayed by force, or else they *will* destroy your pathetic bio army once their splash damage units are being produced. Just as in TvZ Terran must pressure Zerg to keep their economy down, in TvP Terran must pressure Protoss to keep their tech down. If you challenge Zerg to a No Rush 20 build, you generally lose; if you challenge Protoss to a No Rush 20 build, same dif.
MKP mostly goes 1 rax or cc first, heavy eco openings. Or sometimes throws in a 1 Base, 2 rax push, into medivac push. 2 rax or 3 rax is easily held off by Protoss not playing overly greedy, who scout well. Leaving the terran behind after it.
He does often go CC first, but notice that even when he does, he almost always pushes out at a timing where his bio army gets medivacs/ups and the protoss is ALMOST about to pop out their first colo/storm. I open 2 rax quite often, and I find that even when Protoss doesn't early expand, 2 rax gives you enough units to secure your own 2 base vs 1 base lead and also threaten them with drops. Immortal busts can be scary, but it can be held, and it's sure a lot easier than trying to beat a Protoss deathball in the late game, IMO.
Basically every terran in the world does the same medivac timing... Not sure what you are trying to get at.
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| Talack Canada. May 04 2012 14:58. Posts 2492 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 14:55 IMoperator wrote:
Blizzard needs to simultaneously nerf terran early/midgame and either buff terran lategame or nerf protoss lategame imo.
The best way to do this is another bunker nerf IMO |
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| tuho12345 May 04 2012 14:59. Posts 4252 | Profile Blog # |
Don't get into late game and have to play aggressively.
Okay I get it lol. |
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| S_SienZ May 04 2012 14:59. Posts 1800 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 14:58 Talack wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:55 IMoperator wrote:
Blizzard needs to simultaneously nerf terran early/midgame and either buff terran lategame or nerf protoss lategame imo.
The best way to do this is another bunker nerf IMO
Hell no.
Holding off 6 gate is messed up as it is. |
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| nt-rAven Canada. May 04 2012 15:01. Posts 405 | Profile # |
| Terran is playing protoss wrong, they are used to going out in middle and crushing protoss, but they really need to play it as if they are playing zerg, slow methodical play to maintain as little surface spread as possible to funnel units into mmm ball! terran is just to arrogant and getting what they deserve for overestimating shooting marines!(oh and trust me i overestimate shooting marines too they are fucking sick!!!) Last edit: 2012-05-04 15:02:48 |
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| USvBleakill Germany. May 04 2012 15:05. Posts 298 | Profile # |
I (mid master eu T) actually have just 2 builds in TvP: Mech (Banshee into Thor into 3 Base Tanks into 200) and a reactor hellion 2 rax semi allin. With "macro mech" i have a 92% winrate if i am not allined by warp prism 4 gate or blink observer (happened 8 times last season) on Antiga i am at 21/22 on the last season.
Thats not because i am so good or mech is so op. It´s because the protosses are too bad and too stupid. And the metagame helps me so much.
70% of the games i am able to catch the 1. observer (raven after 2 banshees and huge thor anti air range). After that they don´t scout. never. I had games against high mast P´s which dont look at my base in 20 minutes. They dont even try.
So many P´s loose because they missreading it as 111 and don´t even try to scout. I looked at my last 10 mech tvp´s and 6 of them the P NEVER crossed the line on my side of the map.
They stay incredible defensive, never leave their base and flame me for a move with 30 Tanks. I played top 8 Masters which thought that zealot Stalker HT´s Colossus are a good idea against 100 supply sieged tanks.
In short words: My plan works great because the current metagame tell the toss "stay defending at your base until you are maxed out and have a huge bank. Don´t take any riskes because if you don´t loss a lot in early/midgame you will win."
I like bio so much more than this kind of play but, well it works too much better for me.^^
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| papaz Sweden. May 04 2012 15:07. Posts 3746 | Profile # |
The statement is just PR nonsense. It doesn't say much if anything at all. This is just a statement so that people on forums feel a bit more relaxed getting a blue answer.
What was it in that statement that:
1. The community didn't already know?
2. Is worthy of being upset or surprised?
The bottom line is: The races are balanced, the community or the vocal part of the community feel that Blizzard is making wrong design choices and Blizzard is happy with their design choices. |
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| Schnullerbacke13 Germany. May 04 2012 15:07. Posts 1183 | Profile # |
| i think its wrong to think spectators enjoy passive 200/200 macro up with a final mass slaughter. Since attacking/harassing involves taking a risk, there is a need for 'pressure-by-design', else games would be pretty boring. PvZ is similar, if the Z goes heavy eco (3 base roach), the Protoss is forced to do some kind of timing push to weaken the Zerg/kill third. This is good, else the games would be pretty boring .. Last edit: 2012-05-04 15:08:31 |
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| MasterKang United States. May 04 2012 15:08. Posts 1372 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 14:13 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:58 superstartran wrote:
Put back KA into the game and buff EMP back to the old beta radius (where it was fucking massive), problem solved. Issue is that people think KA was so OP when they didn't realize their EMP was massively bigger than Storm before (back in the beta thing was massive). Game becomes more fun to watch, Terran has options late game in that they no longer need like 800 ghosts to EMP P armies down.
What???? The KA was CLEARLY BLATANTLY overpowered and utterly imbalanced. EMP and mobius reactor doesn't even come close to how imbalanced the kaydarian amulet was. First of all, you can INSTANTLY warp in HT and INSTANTLY have 75 energy to storm. A defensive reaction that requires zero strategy and zero defensive preparation making ANY form of harrass become remotely useless. Terran on the other hand HAVE to wait for ghosts to finish their train time. Not an immediate reaction upon scouting something but an offensive/defensive strategic preparation. HT's have the cool down but the instant warp in is much more powerful than a training time that of the ghost and all terran units for that matter. Also, the HT KA makes it 100% impossible or to be less biased, 100% more difficult for Terran to have a defenders advantage after an army trade.
Anyone who suggest KA to return should lose the right to discuss balance |
| | Players: MMA, Boxer, Ryung, Life, TaeJa, Squirtle, Brown, Dark, |
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 VoO Germany. May 04 2012 15:09. Posts 277 | Profile Blog # |
| Activsion/Blizzard is so fucking incompetent whether it is information politics, Esport or game design... unbelievable. You can't fix the Protoss matchups (and don't tell me that PvP/PvZ isn't fucked up too) by increasing or decreasing stats - you need to redesign. Hopefully we will see it with HotS, though I don't believe it anymore. Last edit: 2012-05-04 15:10:51 |
| | ♥ 김택용 ♥Casual Dwarf Fortress Progamer |
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| ROOTheognis United States. May 04 2012 15:10. Posts 4415 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 14:58 Talack wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:55 IMoperator wrote:
Blizzard needs to simultaneously nerf terran early/midgame and either buff terran lategame or nerf protoss lategame imo.
The best way to do this is another bunker nerf IMO
Lol, I see what you did there.
Anyways, it's just frustrating to me that Blizzard is deciding to do nothing just because the statistics say the matchup is approximately 50% winrate. Even if it is at an equal winrate but a race favors heavily towards a strong early/mid-game or a strong late game, the game is pretty damn unexciting and broken. This doesn't seem to be very optimal in developing an exciting and entertaining e-Sport. |
| | If you avoid your weakness, it will remain your weakness. www.twitter.com/#!/rootheognis Follow me! |
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| Jayson X Switzerland. May 04 2012 15:10. Posts 2410 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 14:44 GhettoSheep wrote:
Well then, if Blizzard says terran is the early/mid game race, then I'll just embrace that. I guess I'll just do 1-1-1 timings off 1 or 2 base every game now if that's what Blizzard says I should be doing.
Funny how the mind can twist statements to connect with what ever he believes to be the truth.
Blizzard didn't say win before lategame it said act accordingly in midgame to enter said lategame in a favorable position.
Oh shit. A concept that is true since 1998. |
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| MasterKang United States. May 04 2012 15:10. Posts 1372 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 14:59 S_SienZ wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:58 Talack wrote:
On May 04 2012 14:55 IMoperator wrote:
Blizzard needs to simultaneously nerf terran early/midgame and either buff terran lategame or nerf protoss lategame imo.
The best way to do this is another bunker nerf IMO
Hell no. Holding off 6 gate is messed up as it is.
he's joking |
| | Players: MMA, Boxer, Ryung, Life, TaeJa, Squirtle, Brown, Dark, |
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| sieksdekciw May 04 2012 15:10. Posts 240 | Profile # |
On May 04 2012 13:46 AlexanderDebois wrote:
You should not have to rely on your opponent making a mistake in order to win. The top toss are getting better at holding 15 min or earlier timings. If IMMvP simply had to hold all aggression in the first 15 mins in order to win he would have a 100% winrate versus toss.
Agreed. Currently there is little to no incentive for the terran to get more ahead and progress the game capitalizing on a god engagement and containing the toss. All terran thinks nowadays is, gee I sure hope he doesnt get a third. Once toss gets a third it doesnt matter if terran is on 5 or 20 bases, toss just a moves, storms here and there and it is up to the teran to have godlike micro to even not straight up lose.
Here are the problems in pvt.
Toss can be passive, the terran, however, cant use his map control, but has to attack, otherwise he would be at a disadvantage. Of course, defending is far easier than attacking so it is up to the terran not to mess up.
Engagements. Toss generally a moves, terran should be the one to micro if he hopes to win. Againit is up to the terran to actually do something.
So, in conclusion, we have toss that is being rewarded for passive play and a moving, we have terran that has to be active and actually to control his army during engagements, while being against the clock. How do you not see a problem on that? |
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| nt-rAven Canada. May 04 2012 15:11. Posts 405 | Profile # |
| No race should be unbeatable and every race should be beatable otherwise it really would be imbalanced! Keep that in mind when talking about races, its easy to be emotional as a competitive player but you need to be realistic too! That is really the key to success is being realistic, if ur just saying one race is op lalalaala... well ur just never going to counter it and just keep beating u until metagame either shifts cause other players beat it and force the shift or blizzard patchs it! If you think that way u will whine for the next few weeks or months instead of evaluating and figuring out ur own way with different styles instead of beating ur head agaisnt a brick wall that is SC2@@@@ |
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| Belha Italy. May 04 2012 15:12. Posts 2371 | Profile # |
The OP get things wrong, like most "whinny" terrans (i'm not saying that terrans are whinny, i'm saying that some T's, "whinny" terrans, prolly do not understand the role of their race)
T is not an "early game race". Is a race with a lot of versatility that must be played actively, prolly the race with the most initiative, and must dictate the pace of the game. If not, then is like using Z to mainly play agressive and timming attacks; or like trying to trade blows/armies with P. That things can be done, sure, but it's not maximizing the race potential.
And btw, all that T's are crying for in TvP (the obligation to pressure and slow protoss down during early and mid game), is pretty similar to what is the standar for PvZ. If P do not slow down Z, is pretty fked up. For any uninformed T player, Z can lay down a 3rd at 4:20 unpunished into +60 drones in standard ZvP... |
| | Please Blizz buff speevacs for TvP! |
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| dronefarm United States. May 04 2012 15:12. Posts 260 | Profile Blog # |
On May 04 2012 14:45 Equity213 wrote:
Wow two weeks go by where protoss isnt getting raped by everything and now everyone screaming protoss imba. Can we have another month before you nerf the shit out of us? lolol
Good on blizz for not bowing to pressure.
Terran has been complaining about lategame protoss for a long, long ass time. Avilo, in fact, has ran a fucking political campaign about how terran is so useless lategame versus protoss since probably around a year ago.
Like I said, I think they were right to wait because other play styles need to be explored, but anyone looking at the MU objectively can see protoss is much stronger than terran as the game progresses, I don't play either, so I don't have a stake in this fight, but it's just true, protoss beats bio terran. I think that game design wise, the fact that protoss has the best late game army (of all races) and yet is so very fast to reinforce and has really good mobility and is hard to harass with WG and templar is a problem (and they can get away with some pretty greedy aggressive expansions). There should be better ways to take advantage of a protoss, and a protoss should be punished for not positioning himself correctly.
Balance wise, I think terran needs to delve into mech, because nerfing protoss because bio terran loses to protoss doesn't make sense provided mech terran is also a viable option. If the mobility of protoss is too much for a meching terran when both players are really familiar with the style and are both playing very well, and bio terran still gets rolled by protoss, then that needs to be addressed. Protoss can deflect terran aggression and stabalize and get to lategame in a good position if they play well, and it's not fair that if a protoss plays well and a Terran plays well, protoss has such a big advantage. |
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