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| RedDragon571 United States. May 05 2012 05:34. Posts 633 | Profile # |
This is not a guide or anything but a Discussion for a Tweak to the gas timings of the 3 hatch standard Z v P vs FFE. I do not take original credit for the concept of this as I am pretty sure I have seen some of the KR Zerg pro's do similar things on their streams.
The Problems
Gateway timing attacks can hit at about 8:00 for a 4 gate to all the way to 11:00 min for a immortal sentry all in/blink stalker timing. You can feel extremely in the dark until you have zergling speed as far as how much the toss has, where proxy pylons might be laid down. Once he the toss moves out with a few zealots or a small gateway force you are esentially powerless to stop proxy pylons because of your lack of ling speed. Stephano Style fast thirds have zergling speed finishing at around 9:30 or later.
The other problem is greedy toss. These variety of pokemon tend to take Thirds off of 1-3 gates at around 7:30 to 8:30. These are sometimes nonpunishable/harassable with the way most people play out 3 hatch z v p because:
1: roach speed is too late
2: Zergling speed is too late
3. slowlings can't punish shit
sending slowing or slow roach across the map to punish a fast third can:
1: delay your maxout timing
2: outright fail
The Build
What if you could get Zergling speed around 7:45 around the time toss move out to place proxies with small gateway armies, or take greedy fast thirds with walls and cannons, AND STILL MAX OUT BEFORE 12 Min. Well there life would be much more miserable, as it should be. You can max reactionary speedling to fend off proxies making all in's/timings weaker and keep the toss from taking a third too fast.
REPLAY
http://drop.sc/171897 (was a little understaurated at nat for a bit, so i had a later max by about 10 sec was around 11:55 i think.
Screenshots!
+ Show Spoiler +
14 pool
16 hatch
drone back up to 16 drones fro optimal saturation of minerals
16 overlord
2 pair speedling
18 queen
21 hatch
22 gas This gas timing will maintain optimal saturation as long as possible
at 88 gas pull off 2 workers send to nat, 1 at a time
Since we took our gas a little earlier got ling speed and left one drone on gas, we will take our usual double gas at main, (one geyser is already there obv) a little later around 46 supply which is at around
7:30 evo and roach warren
100 gas lair
You will be maxing off 4 gas and take 2nd two gas (one at third, one at nat) right as roach warren completes 3 Hatches and a macro hatch
from around 22 supply to 76 is all a matter of maintain optimal saturation, changing your resource rallies at the correct timings and not getting supply blocked and building dem drones
11:45 max , You should be able max out with roach ling, have roach speed and +1 missle attacks
The Discussion
If you can have ling speed at 7:45 with a slightly more complicated gas timing and you have the mechanics to handle it all. Why the #$%# would you not do it if you can still max out at at around 11:45? Why the #$% not? Why the #$@% not?
Theory Craft Dumb@$$ery
Ling speed finishing this early adds an element of being able to multitask to throw off your opponent. Do you want you opponent doing some dumb@$$ 3 base timing he got off of a stupid early third where he has 5 collosi archons and a mofo ship? How can you beat a weaker opponent if you cant punish his mistakes. This should add the option to throw more decisions, multitasking and keep your opponent from executing an optimal build. Once hes executing some half @$$ quick 3 base build or gateway timing that gets delayed or shut down the ball swings in favor of the best mechanical player. THIS BUILD IS FOR GOOD MECHANICAL PLAYERS.
Transitions
Roach max
roach ling max (burrow)
roach ling infestor timing
Muta
mass ling/bane drops
quick infestor / brood
DISCUSS! DISCUSS! DISCUSS! DISCUSS!
P.S Gold league theory crafters GTFO!
When you win MLG with this build credit Bugrancher in your interview plz <3<3<3Last edit: 2012-05-05 05:57:38 |
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| Sapp Poland. May 05 2012 05:46. Posts 173 | Profile # |
+ Show Spoiler +overlords are getting faster... no more "playing in the dark" as much as, anyway xP but i digres
all u say is true, but one thing to consider. Are there more % of the games u play vs protoss when protos goes fast tthird or blink all in or 4gate zealot or sentry imortal or someone much weaker than u etc than standard two base 3 gases into 3rd? because even if there it is a 49% to 51 for standard, u shuld play normal gas timeing from 3hatch.Last edit: 2012-05-05 05:52:26 |
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| RedDragon571 United States. May 05 2012 05:55. Posts 633 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 05:46 Sapp wrote: + Show Spoiler +overlords are getting faster... no more "playing in the dark" as much as, anyway xP but i digres
all u say is true, but one thing to consider. Are there more % of the games u play vs protoss when protos goes fast tthird or blink all in or 4gate zealot or sentry imortal or someone much weaker than u etc than standard two base 3 gases into 3rd? because even if there it is a 49% to 51 for standard, u shuld play normal gas timeing from 3hatch. btw, could u hide screenshots into spoiler brackets ? 
I don't understand what do i sacrifice besides APM by doing these different gas timings?
Most the P v Z's i do lose, which is not many, is because.
1. The third got up early and i didn't notice, or by the time i did notice i couldn't punish it at all or effectively enough to be better than taking a 4th and 5th and tech towards broods.
2. They simply snuck a probe by and i missed a proxy location or failed to keep slowlings alive enough to cover map vision.
3. I got cannon rushed at nat or third and didn't react properly.
In 1&2 cases speed helps these.
Btw: DoneLast edit: 2012-05-05 05:56:05 |
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| Markwerf Netherlands. May 05 2012 05:58. Posts 2826 | Profile # |
For defending aggression this is just bad.
First of all, speed will still not finish in time to matter much with this build. A proper mass gate attack warps in units around 7:45 and your speedlings simply won't stop that. Even more, making a round of speedlings to stop the proxy pylon is very risky as those speedlings utterly suck in straight up fight with zealots, if toss makes a overloard of proxy pylons and just gets a round of zealots first you are screwed.
Second, speed is not pivotal to stopping a good 7 gate. Making lots of roaches fast is, in fact against a good 7 gate I advise to cancel ling speed and spend the additional gas on roaches instead it just does so much better. Roach speed on creep is good enough to defend, just make sure you have good creep spread far more important then ling speed is.
Adding in ling speed to fast just means you lose that drone too early and have trouble actually fitting the costs for ling speed in that fast. The DRG method is best I think for 3 base play, just get 3 geysers quite late at the same time and adjust your roach warren timing to the sort of aggression P is doing. Roaches are the only thing that really matter for the fast allins, ling speed, lings, lair tech etc only matter for the later pushes for which you'll be plenty on time still.
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| RedDragon571 United States. May 05 2012 06:12. Posts 633 | Profile # |
Why the fuck would I fight +1 Zealots with speedlings. They are more for scouting and harassing the proxy pylon, I am not going mass ling, jesus. This is a standard build only tweaked so the ling speed hits earlier. I didn't miss out on any drones that i know of, maybe 1-2, because the maxout time is still the same as with normal gas timings. Of course you stop gateway all in's with roaches.
Can you try and backup your claim that I lose drones too early. Sorry but this sounds all theory crafting bs to me. Who the hell would try and stop a 7 gate with pure lings off this build, i don't understand. This is a very small but useful tweak to a standard build imo.
Watch replay please! + Show Spoiler +P.S Gold league theory crafters GTFO! Last edit: 2012-05-05 06:13:22 |
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| Sapp Poland. May 05 2012 06:21. Posts 173 | Profile # |
U sacrifice about 300-400minerals early, something like that. really.
ya, in 1&2 cases speed helps, but i can count u alot more than that two that speed ain't helping at all.
Look my friend. This is kinda hmm "unfair" (?) that protoss just do shit and this is U, who have to play with it, react into it, etc
but this is just how it is. And now U are reacting to ur looses wich is a good thing to do, but this case is not simple, in this case u want to weaken Ur standard to be more safe vs 'early to mid stupid allins and eco rushes'
and I will never tell u that it's wrong to do so, but as i said earlier, u have to look at the bigger picture.
Take 100 ZvPs u played and look how many of them protosses open something that would be susceptable to ur faster lings and compare it to the number of the games that they open smething that would never be. think numbers.
lastly, don't even think for a momment that i'm some kind of standard freak, actualy i like to play 14gas 14pool vs protoss sometimes now. I really find it amuseing, watching how they are sweating by playing without even scouting if u have secnod base or not.
Btw,
3hatch no gass builds came at the time where Protoss were playing alot of stargates and gatewayed 3rd. It may be alittle out of meta at this point. Last edit: 2012-05-05 06:25:49 |
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| Markwerf Netherlands. May 05 2012 06:24. Posts 2826 | Profile # |
Of course you're economy is worse if you get speedlings faster.. Your argument that the maxout is at the same time based on one replay is beyond retarded.. It's simple that the later you get your geysers the better your economy is... Forcing to have speed earlier in the build simply equals less powerful droning. One replay is terrible anecdotal evidence, it means nothing.
And ok so you're not making many lings then you say, what is the entire point in +1 then?? Proxy pylons will be close to a wall so always take some time to take down, If you bother to harass them much P just warps in a few zealots or replaces the proxy pylons while he is killing your base.
Stop thinking you made some genius improvement on a build because it's not, the entire stability of 3 base zerg hings on being able to drone hard while getting a late gas. Earlier gas can be nice for some pressure builds but for stopping attacks it's only worse. |
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| BuiBui United States. May 05 2012 06:27. Posts 510 | Profile # |
| Dimaga does this all the time. If it can work for him, it can work for many more. He gets one gas around 23-26 . Gets speed. Then gets 2nd gas int he mid 40's once speed is done ---> double evo +1 +1 and bane nest -----> bane drops |
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| monk United States. May 05 2012 06:28. Posts 6782 | Profile Blog # |
These variety of pokemon tend to take Thirds off of 1-3 gates at around 7:30 to 8:30.
What? |
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| Sapp Poland. May 05 2012 06:28. Posts 173 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 06:24 Markwerf wrote:
Of course you're economy is worse if you get speedlings faster.. Your argument that the maxout is at the same time based on one replay is beyond retarded.. It's simple that the later you get your geysers the better your economy is... Forcing to have speed earlier in the build simply equals less powerful droning. One replay is terrible anecdotal evidence, it means nothing.
And ok so you're not making many lings then you say, what is the entire point in +1 then?? Proxy pylons will be close to a wall so always take some time to take down, If you bother to harass them much P just warps in a few zealots or replaces the proxy pylons while he is killing your base.
Stop thinking you made some genius improvement on a build because it's not, the entire stability of 3 base zerg hings on being able to drone hard while getting a late gas. Earlier gas can be nice for some pressure builds but for stopping attacks it's only worse.
OMFG, guy is makeing a question on a public forum and want to discuse it. and u are pukeing on him just because of that? grow up -.-'Last edit: 2012-05-05 06:29:37 |
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| BuiBui United States. May 05 2012 06:29. Posts 510 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 06:28 NrGmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +These variety of pokemon tend to take Thirds off of 1-3 gates at around 7:30 to 8:30.
What?
Rofl what?! |
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| BuiBui United States. May 05 2012 06:30. Posts 510 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 06:27 EndOfLine wrote:
Dimaga does this all the time. If it can work for him, it can work for many more. He gets one gas around 23-26 . Gets speed. Then gets 2nd gas int he mid 40's once speed is done ---> double evo +1 +1 and bane nest -----> bane drops
Oh I forgot: You can see these VODS on the NASL forums Watch the epic game 1 of Dimaga VS Hero |
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| Sapp Poland. May 05 2012 06:32. Posts 173 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 06:30 EndOfLine wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:27 EndOfLine wrote:
Dimaga does this all the time. If it can work for him, it can work for many more. He gets one gas around 23-26 . Gets speed. Then gets 2nd gas int he mid 40's once speed is done ---> double evo +1 +1 and bane nest -----> bane drops
Oh I forgot: You can see these VODS on the NASL forums Watch the epic game 1 of Dimaga VS Hero
SO?!!!???!!!???!! this looks no longer like "3hatch no gass into roach ling 12max" to me. hmm :[Last edit: 2012-05-05 06:34:59 |
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| BuiBui United States. May 05 2012 06:34. Posts 510 | Profile # |
Yes I did. I was simply giving an example of a pro who chooses to get gas early. Hoping to enhance the flow of the rest of the thread.
On May 05 2012 06:32 Sapp wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:30 EndOfLine wrote:
On May 05 2012 06:27 EndOfLine wrote:
Dimaga does this all the time. If it can work for him, it can work for many more. He gets one gas around 23-26 . Gets speed. Then gets 2nd gas int he mid 40's once speed is done ---> double evo +1 +1 and bane nest -----> bane drops
Oh I forgot: You can see these VODS on the NASL forums Watch the epic game 1 of Dimaga VS Hero
SO?!!!???!!!???!! this looks no longer like "3hatch no gass into roach ling" to me. hmm :[
Sure isn't. He and marrow seem to be shifting back to the bane drop meta game. It can work. but It can also epically fail if your micro slips or macro slips due to the instense microLast edit: 2012-05-05 06:36:30 |
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| Sapp Poland. May 05 2012 06:41. Posts 173 | Profile # |
men plz, we are getting out of the topic like big time.
The question is "is it resonable to weken ur macro to be less susceptable to "stupid shit" "
and I belive that the ansver depends on a comparison how much "stupid shit" happens in a zvp nowdays.
I think alot actualy (alot more than in time when 3hatch was invented), so i really find myself wondering. |
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| Dingodile May 05 2012 06:41. Posts 426 | Profile # |
A gold player is able to max at ~11:45, glad to see.
I am silver and my fastest time is 11:23.
/e: i saw your screenshot one minute long. Your first pic says you have 53 supply at 7:40? this is a bit slow, very good is you should have 57 at 7:00. Ofcourse without pressure from opponent.Last edit: 2012-05-05 06:46:37 |
| | Stephano | Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Nestea | MC |
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| Sapp Poland. May 05 2012 06:50. Posts 173 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 06:41 Dingodile wrote:
A gold player is able to max at ~11:45, glad to see.
I am silver and my fastest time is 11:23.
/e: i saw your screenshot one minute long. Your first pic says you have 53 supply at 7:40? this is a bit slow, very good is you should have 57 at 7:00. Ofcourse without pressure from opponent.
no, he shuldn't
btw: how did u even get that number, wtf O.oLast edit: 2012-05-05 06:50:41 |
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| monk United States. May 05 2012 06:51. Posts 6782 | Profile Blog # |
I personally think this is a good idea(at least to discuss) and it has been discussed in the Stephano thread where people have been suggesting fast 3rd. First thing is that the OP has to recognize that you're going to max out later if you take an early gas, probably around 10-20 seconds later. He main have gotten sub 12 minutes with gas, but that was against a computer versus no pressure. Another thing to note is that Stephano can get a 10:50 max without pressure.
The second thing is whether 3 nexus builds from protoss are common in the metagame. As of now, I would say that they're not common enough to warrant this hit to your economy.
Thirdly, what kinds of expansions can you actually punish? The earliest expos go down at 6:20(although very rare). The problem is, it takes exactly 1 minute to sim city and cannon up an expansion and by that time, speed with your build won't be finished. The alternative is if the protoss takes his third with around 4 gates, around 8:30. This type of expansion, you can't really punish either with speedlings. It seems to me the only expansions you can punish with speedlings are ones that go down between 6:40 and 8:30. Is it worth it to get speed just for that?
Another thing to consider is that you either have to scout this expansion and then react quickly or have a decent ammount of blind lings already out on the map. If you choose to make lings reactive, you only have 1 minute(the time it takes to make cannons) to scout it, make lings, and run them across the map. Keep in mind that these lings might be slowlings as they're running across the map. |
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| Dingodile May 05 2012 06:58. Posts 426 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 06:50 Sapp wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:41 Dingodile wrote:
A gold player is able to max at ~11:45, glad to see.
I am silver and my fastest time is 11:23.
/e: i saw your screenshot one minute long. Your first pic says you have 53 supply at 7:40? this is a bit slow, very good is you should have 57 at 7:00. Ofcourse without pressure from opponent.
no, he shuldn't btw: how did u even get that number, wtf O.o
easy if you have fast 3rd. But if I still play on 2base (vs terran) at 7min, i have around 50supply.
Stephano showed on stream several times 62 supply at 7min, ofcourse with fast 3rd. |
| | Stephano | Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Nestea | MC |
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| Sapp Poland. May 05 2012 06:59. Posts 173 | Profile # |
It seems to me the only expansions you can punish with speedlings are ones that go down between 6:40 and 8:30. Is it worth it to get speed just for that?
(and few stupid builds as well, to chase probes and deny scouting etc so u feel safer all the way into the midgame)
This is the whole idea, because it is worth to get speed just for that.(not on all of the maps but try not to care about that for now) But u have no idea that protoss WILL do that until he Will do that while u have to make that gaser at 20 suply, that is the whole pain in the ass.Last edit: 2012-05-05 07:00:58 |
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