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| SeinGalton South Africa. May 05 2012 08:00. Posts 295 | Profile Blog # |
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JtBkL.jpg)
aka “Fuck Yeah ZvP”
Hello TL.
I am here to present to you, for your comments, criticisms, opinions and considerations, a ZvP style that I have been working on casually. I'd like to preface everything by saying I don't actually know what I'm talking about (hence [D] rather than [G]), but I will also say that I've been having a lot of fun with this and I think there is at least some legitimacy to it. One more thing: I'm calling it Neo-Sauron even though the term is far more general and encompassing – the popular Stephano style is technically more Neo-Sauron than this. But this seems far more insidious. I wanted to go with “Fuck Yeah ZvP” but feared rebuke for such a distasteful thread title. I'm open to suggestions!
Introduction
+ Show Spoiler +The Zerg versus Protoss matchup has become one of the more stagnant matchups as of late: Zergs rush for three bases whilst Protoss takes an expansion themselves, usually off of a forge. Quickly teching to roaches and an infestion pit shortly afterwards have allowed Zergs to play in a comfort zone: if Protoss is being greedy, punish him with never-ending swarms of roaches. If Protoss is playing conservative, tech to Broodlords and avoid the vortex.
And it seems to work. But it's boring. I myself harbour a distaste for roaches: they're not very zergy, and they are poor units without all their upgrades. I have also come to dislike Broodlords – despite their effectiveness, they are slow and often boring to play.
So I've been working on another way of playing ZvP: roachless and spireless. I won't say it's a new style, because others have had similar ideas (notably Coca and Morrow). But I haven't seen anyone do it as I am attempting. I am sure they're out there though. In fact, this style of ZvP was initially inspired not by anything in the StarCraft 2 scene, but rather BroodWar ZvP. In particular, one of my personal favourite BroodWar games: Zero vs Bisu on Neo Aztec. Of course, Zero starts off with a spire in that game but by the end of it, he has a massive, unstoppable ground army.
In brief, this style of ZvP is creating a powerful ground army consisting of highly upgraded lings, infestors, ultras and banelings that can engage the Protoss deathball in a straight up fight. Once the deathball has been destroyed or crippled, the aggression switch gets flipped and Zerg starts flooding the map with never-ending streams of units.
The Style
+ Show Spoiler +This style is characterized by building up a powerful and mobile ground army that can dictate the game, engage the Protoss deathball in a straight-up fight and trade well enough for Zerg to flood the map with units to take the game. The end-goal of this style is different from the Broodlord/infestor and mass roach styles. For this style, your ideal position is: 4 – 5 bases (8-10 gas) +3/+3 upgrades, as well as all the other relevant upgrades A ton of Hatches A massive ground army consisting of Zerglings, Banelings, Infestors, Ultralisks and, if necessary, Hydralisks. From here you try to find a good engagement with the Protoss deathball. You will always be able to force an engagement since you will have the faster army, you just need to force a good one. Lead with the ultralisks, not only to tank damage but also to stomp forcefields. Here, it is critical to keep your infestors alive. If the battle goes awry, you'll need them to delay the deathball as you are remaxing again. Remaxing is the crux here – before you engage, it is essential that you have not only a good bank but also tons of larvae. The goal with the first engagement is not to win the game, it is to cripple his deathball. Often times, you'll find that you can't completely kill it, but because you have the macro advantage you can remax faster and keep battering the Protoss down with infinite streams of units. This is the Neo Sauron Zerg, a style truly worthy of The Swarm. Avoid this style if: + Show Spoiler + - you are interested mostly in winning ZvP. It is largely untested, probably has a number of holes and you will probably rack up a ton of losses before getting anywhere.
- you need to be cost efficient. This is Neo Sauron Zerg, fuck efficiency.
- you are in one of the lower leagues. Compared to the Stephano style, this seems far more complex and tougher to execute. I think more so than other styles, this one requires a very solid mechanical foundation to execute at all.
- you are fundamentally opposed to taking four or more bases. You won't have enough gas on three bases. Try this style if: + Show Spoiler + - you too hate roaches. They're not even real units, just a way of getting maxed without an awesome army. Yuck. Fuck roaches
- you too hate the spire. The Swarm does not cower in the skies, out of range and out of sight.
- you prioritize fun over winning. This style is infinitely more fun and can lead to some crazy games, but you will probably lose a good many games before you start winning.
- you like taking bases. One thing is guaranteed, you will be gas-starved all game, every game. Luckily, you have the mobile army and you can take expansions all over.
- you have mixed feelings on the Archon Toilet. Now, just roll your banelings and ultras into it and watch his army disappear in his own toilet!
- you are a hipster nerd. I counter Colossi with Hydras and Zealots with Drones. I did it before it even became popular. Honestly, I think this style will become even better with HoTS, so jump on the bandwagon now!
- you are a Sauron Zerg. “Whatever, I have infinity units, fuck you!”
Composition Explanation:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YfJLN.jpg) Lings, being the fastest units in the game, give us the mobility we need through the early and midgame to keep Protoss a little pinned back. We are able to threaten backstabs and counter attacks to buy time, and in the late game lings will remain our primary unit for sowing destruction in the Protoss ranks. The other units are all fancier, but the lings are really the crux of the composition. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tDwYE.jpg) Banelings, by virtue of incredible amounts of damage in a short time-frame, will help us deal with the Protoss deathball in head-on engagements. Banelings will also make the Protoss wary of baneling drops and force him to be more cautious and really babysit his army. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WADUF.jpg) Infestors are not only our utility units, allowing us to deal with various threats, they also allow us to control the pace of the game. We can slow pushes down with them, or become aggressive with timing attacks. In massive engagements, Fungal Growth locks the Protoss army in place, ensuring no escape from the Banelings and Ultralisks. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/L7aJO.jpg) Ultralisks will be primarily useful in massive, maxed army engagements, absorbing damage and stomping forcefield. Instead of viewing them as a substitute for Broodlords, think of them rather as enablers: without them, we'd have a hard time getting aggressive against a maxed Protoss. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wDHav.jpg) Hydralisks, our trap card, will be activated in certain scenarios where mass anti-air is vital or where our Hatch- and Lair-tech units don't cut it, such as Immortal-Zealot-Sentry attacks. We gain the opportunity to exploit certain timings or other diversions, such as Hydra drops. They also form a lethal synergy with Ultras in the late game.
Build Breakdown
+ Show Spoiler +Instead of providing a food list, I will instead give a general outline of the build as I am currently playing it. I can do this because I'm actually pretending to do a discussion thread, not a guide thread.
I have toyed around with various openings and have come to the conclusion that the 3 hatch before gas is the best template on which to base this build. It has one significant modification: instead of double-gassing at a later stage, we add in one geyser earlier. This is to get both zergling speed and a baneling nest up in lieu of a Warren. Instead of relying on roaches, a la Stephano, we will rely on lings banelings, spines and Queens. So, in its simplest form, the parts of the build in rough chronology:
Phase 1:
15/18 – Spawning pool
Double Expand
Phase 2:
28/28 – Extractor
Baneling Nest (~ 6:25)
Lair, gradually add on gas as lair is morphing
Double Evo for +1/+1
Phase 3:
Hydra Den (entirely circumstantial)
Infestation Pit
Hive
Ultralisk Cavern
Here are, in rough chronology, a list of the upgrades you'll want to get.
Metabolic Boost.
+1/+1 Upgrades for melee
+2/+2 Upgrades for melee
Pathogen Glands
Centrifugal Hooks
Burrow
+3/+3 Upgrades for melee
Adrenal Glands
Chitinous Plating
Pneumatized Carapace (optional)
Ventral Sacks (optional)
Neural Parasite (optional)
Grooved Spines
Benchmarks & Timings:
+ Show Spoiler +Instead of giving a food list I'll once again simplify things a little. Here are the benchmarks you'll want to hit in given absolutely no aggression or interference from the Protoss:
~ 5:00 Already double expanded, first expansion already up.
~ 6:30 Baneling Nest, followed by speed
~ 7:10 Metabolic Boost
~ 8:00 Lair, 65-70 Food
~ 9:00 First Macro Hatch
~ 9:30 Start +1/+1, Infestation Pit
~ 10:00 Second Macro Hatch, 105-110 Food
~ 10:20 Pathogen Glands
~ 11:00 Fourth Base, Hive, Centrifugal Hooks
~ 12:15 +2/+2
~ 12:45 Ultralisk Cavern, Adrenal Glands
~ 13:50 Chitinous Plating, Max out with Ultras 200/200 Food soon after.
~ 15:40 Start +3/+3
> 16:00 Take as many additional bases as is reasonable. You'll need them.
Again, these are super ideal timings and benchmarks are unrealistic in almost all echelons of play. I merely post this as a benchmark against which to measure your execution. That said, myself being a Platinum-level player, I'm usually able to max out at 16:00, usually just waiting on the ultralisk cavern.
Diversions:
+ Show Spoiler +The reason the Stephano style is such a pain for the Protoss is not purely the huge roach army. It's the fact that Zerg can either go apeshit with roaches or just tech up to Broodlords. This makes it tough for Protoss because they don't know when the Zerg will get aggressive.
Similarly, this build offers ways to rearrange the parts in order to become aggressive at different times in the game:
~ 7:00 Baneling bust. This build does set itself up for a baneling bust, but I think it comes late and I wouldn't recommend it.
~ 11:00 If you start Overlord Drop tech as the lair finished, you can do a banerain strategy.
~ 12:30 Ling/Bling/Infestor +1/+1 timing attack. Haven't tried this yet, seems good vs Stargate + Quick third.
~ 14:00 Ultralisk timing
~ 16:00 +2/+2 Neo Sauron Zerg Invasion.
~ 18:00 +3/+3 Neo Sauron Zerg Invasion.
There is also a hydralisk diversion, which is a little tricky but can work out well. Should you scout a 7-gate +2 Blink All-in, Double Stargate, Immortal timings or anything similar, peppering in a handful of hydralisks will not only put you in a strong defensive position, you also open up a rare lategame composition: Ling/Ultra/Hydra. It uses the same logic as roach/hydra, with Ultras absorbing damage and hydralisks firing from behind. The also have a good synergy on creep since the movement speeds are much closer. Just something worth considering.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +I don't find the time to play very often, and certainly not against ultra-high level opponents, but then this section will not be confined to my own replays. Anyone may submit replays to me of them playing this style and, should I deem them worthy, I will gladly add them to this section. However, currently I only have replays of my own. I ask that you excuse the mistakes, blunders and low-level play in general. As I have said before, I'm not a very good player. In chronological order (the last three being the best examples, and the prior ones being early highly unrefined versions. I lose two games I should not have lost, but so we learn! http://drop.sc/163244http://drop.sc/163243http://drop.sc/163241http://drop.sc/171972http://drop.sc/171974http://drop.sc/171973Apologies for the lack of good replays, I will try to play some more games and update this thread accordingly!
Conclusion
I hope that my discussion here has sparked some more interest in this style, or at least entertained you. I realize that I am a far less accomplished player than most forum-goers on here, and would gladly stand corrected on any erroneous/misleading information. I hope to be able to update this thread, from time to time, with additional replays and information. In the meantime, good luck and, more importantly, have fun.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ivOkk.jpg) Last edit: 2012-05-11 22:26:17 |
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 superbarnie United States. May 05 2012 08:07. Posts 280 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 08:00 SeinGalton wrote:aka as “Fuck Yeah ZvP”
I think the "as" is redundant and can be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence. |
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| Mercy13 United States. May 05 2012 08:26. Posts 102 | Profile # |
I don't think I'm qualified to discuss the details of this style, but it looks like a very fun way to approach zvp and I am looking forward to the discussion in this thread. Also your write up is very well done and entertaining, thanks for putting so much time into this!
Edit: As a toss player I can sympathize with your hate for roaches : pLast edit: 2012-05-05 08:27:42 |
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| zeeQue United Kingdom. May 05 2012 08:29. Posts 150 | Profile # |
Weirdly this is something I like to do in BO3s to throw people off, a lot of Protoss players don't expect it, although the route I take is mass upgraded ling/bling with Festors into Broods, I use ultra on certain maps.
But I like the idea behind it, obviously mass Cols with Storms can destroy this pretty quickly but I find the way to stop that is to deny the third for too long and force them to two base all in it the timings you have though seem pretty solid, but you've gotta remember to expand like a mad man, lack of Larvae cost you so much when trading if it goes late game -_-
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| KalWarkov Germany. May 05 2012 08:37. Posts 2800 | Profile Blog # |
u die to any reasonable 6-8 gate attack, to any immortal/sentry push, you are vulnearble to warpprisms.
still a cool style, but your build isnt rly safe^^ |
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| zeeQue United Kingdom. May 05 2012 08:41. Posts 150 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 08:37 KalWarkov wrote:
u die to any reasonable 6-8 gate attack, to any immortal/sentry push, you are vulnearble to warpprisms.
still a cool style, but your build isnt rly safe^^
You'd be surprised at how effective ling/bling with spines is at holding those, and warpprims aren't a problem when you've got creep spread + fast lings, that's the whole point behind this style, you keep map control and if you're quick enough harrasments don't do a thing
This style involves heavy scouting as well, because you obviously need to be more prepared than if you went stephano roach |
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| the.toninator United States. May 05 2012 08:41. Posts 61 | Profile # |
Mass colossus with storms DIES so hard to this, because they won't actually have an army if they tech up to that so quickly on 2 base. And ultras basically walk through storm with no damage. Banes are a bit weak but I'm sure there are ways to avoid that. Maybe with burrow or baneling drops?
Basically this style is awesome to play and way more fun to watch. I hope more people start doing it :D |
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| Recoil United States. May 05 2012 08:43. Posts 240 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 08:37 KalWarkov wrote:
u die to any reasonable 6-8 gate attack, to any immortal/sentry push, you are vulnearble to warpprisms.
still a cool style, but your build isnt rly safe^^
If you go the banerain route you can do a very good job vs sentry/immortal pushes because they have little to no AA and the FFs are negated. |
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| See.Blue United States. May 05 2012 08:56. Posts 2292 | Profile Blog # |
Very cool. Will follow this with interest. Hope to see this get refined nicely.  |
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| sgtjimmy Canada. May 05 2012 09:07. Posts 105 | Profile # |
| In a firm believer in roaches in every match-up, this style definitely looks interesting and worth while to try. Gave me a whole new perspective for ZvP. Great guide all together. |
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| ticklishmusic United States. May 05 2012 10:07. Posts 3213 | Profile Blog # |
It's an interesting idea, but it assumes the Protoss, y'know, doesn't really do anything the first 16 minutes of the game.
Basically, you play uber greedy third and then try to do a infestor ling or double ling composition. Those comps are usually done off of two bases, because you're stretched too thin for three. It ends with you being too gas starved b/c all you can do is morph banelings to defend, and/or losing your third. Meanwhile, Protoss takes his third b/c you can't attack it, and gets the AoE that counters ling compositions so well.
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| SeinGalton South Africa. May 05 2012 16:59. Posts 295 | Profile Blog # |
Thanks for the comments everyone, I'm very happy to have such a positive response to this topic! I hope to continue this discussion and eventually tweak and alter the style and the build until they are really really refined. Everyone should also feel free to send me replays: if they're good I'll add them to the OP>
superbarnie: How embarrassing, thank you sir!
zeeQue: Awesome, I'm not the only one! If you are so inclined, please feel free to send me replays sir!
ticklishmusic: Not at all: the timings I have posted, as mentioned, are really idealized and you will always find yourself behind them. You're doing ling/infestor, but you're adding in banelings and tons of spines. You'll also find yourself in scenarios that demand lots of queens or even hydralisks. Just because you're not using roaches doesn't mean you automatically die to any attack before the 16 minute mark. Also, AoE effectiveness is drastically diminished once the ultras arrive. The lings have a tough time, but banes seem to do okay and ultras soak up so much damage at 5/3. If you watch the replays you'll see how these fights can turn out. It's definitely a tough style to play though, and I think you'd need really good practice vs all of the timings. |
| | They're coming to get you, Barbara. |
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| zeeQue United Kingdom. May 05 2012 22:38. Posts 150 | Profile # |
| I can't access my SC2 atm cos it's bugged out and my lack of internet half the times means I can't sort it... But I'm sure I have some good replays hidden away, will send them on, don't expect sensational play though, Only a diamond!! xD |
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| Flonomenalz Nigeria. May 05 2012 23:13. Posts 2862 | Profile # |
I don't think it's possible to hold off certain gateway timings without roaches, unless you're banking on your opponent screwing up FFs.
Still, interesting style, but way too many holes. I think roach-less zvp comes down to either muta ling or ling bane rain, FFs are just too good for drop-less banelings, and ling infestor with NP nerf just gets hurt so hard by dedicated 2 base colossi/sentry immortal pushes. 3+ colossi just make lings look completely worthless.
edit: I'll give it a shot as I play right now, I'm high diamond.Last edit: 2012-05-05 23:14:00 |
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| Belial88 United States. May 05 2012 23:28. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
I don't think you need roaches if you are going 2 base lair.
That said, I really don't like 2 base lair for anything but some sort of pressure or semi-all-innish timing (hydra drop nydus, infestor timing, 2 base muta, roach/ling). I just don't see why you would go 2 base lair when you could go 3 base lair. I don't like roaches either, but 3 base > 2 base, and if you aren't hitting a timing to damage Toss, I really don't think you can compete with 2 base.
Why not just go the standard fast third (which you really need roaches for to defend early to early-midgame pressure), and make a build from there?
That said... I wrote a guide about a very similar playstyle in ZvP a while back (ling/banerain into ling/banerain/infestor into ultra/baneling with infestor as AA).
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223676
I know this will sound kind of mean, but I couldnt help but notice you were in diamond but... I was in diamond league when I wrote that guide. I really don't think my guide is viable at all except in lower level play, but I thought it was the shit because it worked great for me in diamond. Simlarly, I don't think what you are proposing, as it stands as 2 base lair macro play and ultras, would work either ;/
Id love to be proven wrong, but the infestor nerf made ultras not really good anymore, and banerain is awesome for the mid-game if you like to play aggresion, but you have to go roach/banerain/infestor - 3+ colossi just own infinite lings, so without NP anymore to neuter colossi, you can't go banerain without roaches as the meat. I also kind of feel that roach/banerain/infestor is not really a good playstyle.
On a side note, kind of funny about the infestor nerf. They nerfed infestor, but right before they nerfed it zergs were discovering fast third before lair play, and that mutas/infestor+spine is much, much better. I think if NP came back, zergs wouldnt use it. Kind of sad, they just remove a cool option in the game, but oh well. |
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| SeinGalton South Africa. May 06 2012 00:01. Posts 295 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 23:28 Belial88 wrote:I don't think you need roaches if you are going 2 base lair. That said, I really don't like 2 base lair for anything but some sort of pressure or semi-all-innish timing (hydra drop nydus, infestor timing, 2 base muta, roach/ling). I just don't see why you would go 2 base lair when you could go 3 base lair. I don't like roaches either, but 3 base > 2 base, and if you aren't hitting a timing to damage Toss, I really don't think you can compete with 2 base. Why not just go the standard fast third (which you really need roaches for to defend early to early-midgame pressure), and make a build from there? That said... I wrote a guide about a very similar playstyle in ZvP a while back (ling/banerain into ling/banerain/infestor into ultra/baneling with infestor as AA). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223676I know this will sound kind of mean, but I couldnt help but notice you were in diamond but... I was in diamond league when I wrote that guide. I really don't think my guide is viable at all except in lower level play, but I thought it was the shit because it worked great for me in diamond. Simlarly, I don't think what you are proposing, as it stands as 2 base lair macro play and ultras, would work either ;/ Id love to be proven wrong, but the infestor nerf made ultras not really good anymore, and banerain is awesome for the mid-game if you like to play aggresion, but you have to go roach/banerain/infestor - 3+ colossi just own infinite lings, so without NP anymore to neuter colossi, you can't go banerain without roaches as the meat. I also kind of feel that roach/banerain/infestor is not really a good playstyle. On a side note, kind of funny about the infestor nerf. They nerfed infestor, but right before they nerfed it zergs were discovering fast third before lair play, and that mutas/infestor+spine is much, much better. I think if NP came back, zergs wouldnt use it. Kind of sad, they just remove a cool option in the game, but oh well.
Hello Belial, glad to see you here .
I was actually just looking at your old guide again (I'll edit the link into the OP as well, just as a point of reference). What I'm proposing here is in fact a 3 hatch before gas opening, taking your third before your first extractor a la Stephano style and not a 2base lair play. I tried 2base lair for a long while, but you fall to far behind - I don't think it can work. I'll admit, as it stands now it's a lot tougher than the Stephano style, and there are a ton of timing's I'm really scared of (+1 Zealot 4gate, +2 Blink Allin, and 2 base Colossus timings in particular). I don't see pros using this anytime soon because everything about it seems really fragile.
But that's sort of why I started the thread - it's unlikely that I will, on my own, develop solutions to all these problems so I've turned this into a discussion rather than a guide. Hopefully some Masters level players will become interested and help find the necessary solutions to turn this into a viable strategy.
Yeah it's a shame about the NP nerf, I only ever see it being used on Motherships. Even a less severe nerf would have been a great addition to this and solved a lot of problems I feel.
And I'm officially diamond but I don't rate myself that good - I really am a low-level player just looking to grow a fun, if suicidal, style of play. Thank you for your input, sir, I'm going to do more investigation and hopefully, with time, this will turn into something legitimate! |
| | They're coming to get you, Barbara. |
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| SeinGalton South Africa. May 06 2012 00:13. Posts 295 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 23:13 Flonomenalz wrote:
I don't think it's possible to hold off certain gateway timings without roaches, unless you're banking on your opponent screwing up FFs.
Still, interesting style, but way too many holes. I think roach-less zvp comes down to either muta ling or ling bane rain, FFs are just too good for drop-less banelings, and ling infestor with NP nerf just gets hurt so hard by dedicated 2 base colossi/sentry immortal pushes. 3+ colossi just make lings look completely worthless.
edit: I'll give it a shot as I play right now, I'm high diamond.
Yeah there are some timings that seem really tough without roaches, but hopefully there are alternative solutions available.
With sentries I feel like this style will need to approach the problem differently. One thing that would help is to get a decent swell of lings and force a lot of FF from P as he moves out. Lings and banelings will murder most gateway compositions once you take FF out of the equation and you make sure to engage on creep (micro advantage).
Please send me the replays, would love to see!
On May 05 2012 22:38 zeeQue wrote:
I can't access my SC2 atm cos it's bugged out and my lack of internet half the times means I can't sort it... But I'm sure I have some good replays hidden away, will send them on, don't expect sensational play though, Only a diamond!! xD
That would be much appreciated! Skill level is not a concern, I don't expect any GMs to go on loosing streaks for the sake of fun. |
| | They're coming to get you, Barbara. |
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| SeinGalton South Africa. May 11 2012 16:39. Posts 295 | Profile Blog # |
With the new balance changes, I wonder whether going mass queen early in the game (like 6-8) would be a good idea.
They're no longer outranged by Stalkers and the increased creep spread is really going to aid this heavily ground-based style. Transfusing spine crawlers is really effective, especially when you get him to commit a bunch of zealots to killing it. It should also shut down Stargate play cold and a hydralisk den might become entirely peripheral to the style. I'll have to play some games to find out but it seems very much worth it. |
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| -Kira May 11 2012 16:46. Posts 352 | Profile Blog # |
Switch optional hydras for corruptors and add queens to your composition and you have ultimate ZvP composition that is unbeatable by standard Protoss armies. I've been recommending this over a year ago already.
And yes, it has much higher skill cap than most styles, but with it, it's also MUCH more potent. |
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| Mahtasooma Germany. May 11 2012 17:58. Posts 374 | Profile # |
This style is a fuckton of fun.
In essence, it's "if I have more stuff than you, dear P, you WILL die, no matter your ground composition".
I killed allin 2base Immortal / Sentry / Stalker / Zealot pushes with this, which would be 100% instawin against Stephano Roaches. Killing whole deathballs with pure ling / bane is a ton of fun.
Only problem with this style is I just can't resist blowing all my banes up in the ball when I see I clearly wipe out everything, but I could retreat the banes and let the lings do the rest of the work... |
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