I was wondering a bit about any builds on ling all ins that revolve around 1-2 control groups. If anyone has any builds to share I'd be grateful.
I've only found one on liquipedia, 3 hatch zergling, but I'd like to hear a little more about them. Since they seem to be "less thought of" sometimes, I guess posting a straight build order isn't very common really.
Things I'm interested in:
Vods If there are any specific builds, or more specific reactionary build alterations into a ling all in How many zerglings is the optimum number Timing, when to attack Counters, countered by. Match ups, do they even work vs terran?
3 hatch ling does work verse Terrans, but it's a form of cheese. Meaning it will probably work if the enemy isn't ready for it, while it will most likely not work if the enemy prepared/scouted it.
Using it to punish greedy Terrans that make no bunker early nat, or Protoss that only make 1 cannon and no sim-city can be very effective. It's situational, really.
There was a noob-stomp game where I rushed to hive, got adrenals, and all-in'd with lings but it probably won't work against real opponents.
This is very interesting thread... I`m a C- zerg so you probably shouldn`t listen to me,but I`ve done some zergling "all ins" (it`s not really an all in) vs T and they work like 75% of a time. I do a normal 3 hatch opening vs T,first 100 gas for lair,then zergling speed. Around that time pump lings instead of drones,and most importantly keep 4-6 lings at your nat to stop any scouts. Keep others somewhere where your opponent won`t scout. You get something around 2 control groups at the same time when speed finishes. Then you go for a kill...If T has a bunker your chances are much weaker,but anyway he stiil needs to react in a same second as the attack is starting. Don`t forget to start massing mutas as soon as spire finishes (you can set really point to his natural). Note that this build is awful on FS for example,and it`s ok on maps with wide natural choke like Python.
Vuk_91 any chance you have some replays of yourself doing this strategy to share? (Preferably upload any to repdepot.net ^^) I'm very interested in this thread as well .
Last edit: 2012-05-05 22:06:07
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gutshot United States. May 05 2012 22:47. Posts 404
It has to do with more of how early you catch their scouting units. I tend to go for a ling allin a lot of the times in both zvt and zvp if I cut their scout early enough.
in zvt by early i mean before you collect 100~150 gas, make only 4 lings and kill the scouting scv, get speed first then go for a kill when it finishes. It's important to pretend like you are making drones for mid/late game so keep making drones until pool finishes. even if terran has a bunker it will work out quite well and the chances are they don't have a bunker most of the time. I do not like going for a kill after getting lair first because nowadays everyone seems to have decent micro with scvs.
in zvp make 6 lings after standard overpool, get 2nd hatch at nat or elsewhere, do not use up the larvas until you have 3 while you are denying the scout then make 6 more lings - 3rd hatch anywhere on the map - keep making lings and go for a kill. remember 12 slowlings can destroy 2 cannons with 0~6 leftover lings depending on how well they react to it so its important to keep sending lings.
While I mostly play with friends (not complete noobs) I haven't gotten the chance to try this out on a larger scale. But it sure is interesting, especially since this might be something used quite reactionary. I mean, as vuk91 pointed out, one could if these builds were perfected, go into a game with the plan to 3 hatch muta and then spot a careless terran and transition really quick into this. Now that I'm starting to play ladder I should have the possibility to do more extensive research.
Maybe there is a possibility to make this type of all ins a bit more reliable or maybe even not completely all in. I mean, in comparision, sometimes a zerg can do a 3 hatch hydra and see 7 cannons at the protoss natural. He could then just turtle up and power drones and tech to transition into some sort of standard play possibly.
The liquipedia page notes this, but doesn't really explain it very thorougly. It seems more like the author thinks one should try the all in, and if it fails try to power drones which is pretty rudiculous IMO. I'm thinking more along the lines of excessive scouting (even sacrificing an overlord if that's what it takes) and then backing off if it seems impossible. Hopefully the defender has spent to much on defence and therefore can't handle you out on the field without some headache.
Using 2 control groups of lings should be enough to at least hold off until lurkers come out if one went for a lair on top of this as vuk91 mentioned. I'm thinking a nice flank or surround to delay/kill the first wave.
Timing is also critical obviosuly. There might be a certain time when the attack has suprisingly high chances of succeeding that one could find out by analysing many games or just experimenting on ones own. I'm thinking statistical analysis of rep-files^^. MOAR!
9h 2 base zerglings is a really easy build to do in all 3 matchups.
BO: 9h at natural, 9 pool, 9gas, 9 overlord after overlord pops, make only zerglings, up to 2 - 3 control groups depending on situation.
ZvT: In 1 rax FE, before bunker timing, you have the potential to win the game right there. With decent surround and denial of scouting scv, they won't know what is coming. However, 1 base terran counters this build pretty hard, and in ZvT, it is more of a cheese. This can then be expanded into 3 h muta or 2h muta.
ZvP: Against forge FE, if protoss makes <3 cannons and does not block with enough probes or does not have a zealot fast enough, poor sim city can be easily broken with 2 control groups. 12 lings> 2 cannons and 6 ligns>1cannon. With 24 lings, you can win if they don't scout the mass zerglings. After 2 control groups, you can take third, even if you don't break. By threatening the ling semi-all-in, the protoss usually makes 1-2 more cannons, evening out the economic situation.
ZvZ: Against 1 base Zerg who has bad sim city/not enough ling-sunken, you just break. EZ. If they turtle up, you can drone up plus evo, and you are up 1 gas. Against 2 base Zerg, you will have more lings and earlier lings+speed, so you can deny their natural. They will have to sunken up. You can mass lings and break or tech. If they don't make sunkens, you win. This build is bad on 2 player maps, as 9p can come before lings pop. However, even in that situation, your natural hatchery can take damage until your first 8 lings pop, in which you can then deny the attack.
Disadvantages of this build: Later tech, not many drones Advantages of this build: Super aggressive, many possibilities to play later game, forces other player to waste minerals defending, potential to win at right timings and with good decision making, easy to execute.
@Maximusjesse Nice writeup there. I've played around with some 9 hatching before, but never really quite gotten it to work. I'll try some of this and come back here once I've gotten a feel for it. I don't think I've seen a 9 hatches almost ever, except for ZvZ. Exciting!
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icystorage Philippines. May 07 2012 09:11. Posts 3718
as a terran, i tend to lose when caught unaware with ling all-ins early game. the key for that strategy is to deny scouting, when a terran knows you're massing lings, its very easy to defend with proper scv micro and placement
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sheaRZerg United States. May 07 2012 11:31. Posts 512
An idea I played around with a while back was getting somewhat fast ling-speed (like 12 pool speed) and then transitioning to a 3 hatch ling all-in. If you control well, it basically makes it a guessing game for the opponent. The problem is a lot of the potential followup all-ins require basically identical responses, so it may also prompt the opponent to play it really safe. Im sure others have done this, maybe someone has better information on it.
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Release United States. May 08 2012 08:23. Posts 3973
Jangbi vs Luxury in the MSL finals. I think it was game 1. He makes a ton of lings and floods the natural.
The things with ling all ins is that you don't have to win the game, but because your drone count is usually quite low, you have to do significant damage to make it pay off.
PvZ is very scary for mass ling-all-ins. I use an LML build for PvZ and I'm always scared when I put down my nexus cause i only have 1 zealot and 1 cannon by the time my nexus goes up and even 10 lings can ruin my day.
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icystorage Philippines. May 08 2012 11:35. Posts 3718
On May 08 2012 10:37 FlaShFTW wrote: PvZ is very scary for mass ling-all-ins. I use an LML build for PvZ and I'm always scared when I put down my nexus cause i only have 1 zealot and 1 cannon by the time my nexus goes up and even 10 lings can ruin my day.
with proper wall-in it wouldn't, assuming its ling-tight and 1 zealot can fit in the choke. it takes 2 cannon shots to kill 1 zergling and 3 +0 hits from zealots
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sure, a wall can be tight. But that can be checked early with the first lings and then avoid going ling all in. In PvZ this is more reactionary in the sense that if there's a back door or a bad looking wall (some maps are practically impossible to get good walls) then this is an option. Plus many lings can get through tight walls as long as they are microed well and the walls aren't out of the ordinary. 2 ctrl groups get a tight standard wall with target firing and micro without problems.
Another thought I have would be a super early evo chamber to get +1 carapace for the bust. Anyone ever tried this?
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Release United States. May 08 2012 12:34. Posts 3973
On May 08 2012 11:45 Jaevlaterran wrote: sure, a wall can be tight. But that can be checked early with the first lings and then avoid going ling all in. In PvZ this is more reactionary in the sense that if there's a back door or a bad looking wall (some maps are practically impossible to get good walls) then this is an option. Plus many lings can get through tight walls as long as they are microed well and the walls aren't out of the ordinary. 2 ctrl groups get a tight standard wall with target firing and micro without problems.
Another thought I have would be a super early evo chamber to get +1 carapace for the bust. Anyone ever tried this?
Upgrades take too long to be considered early enough to actually "bust." Requires chamber (-1 larvae), 150 more gas (- minerals) and you have to wait until your upgrade finishes to get maximum effect. Better to invest in another hatchery and get more lings.
Also, with only 1 zealot and one canon, it isn't too unfeasible that you could kill the gateway or the forge then flood in zerglings like it's the 4th of july.
There is another game of Killer vs Sea on Aztec, but Killer loses too many lings attacking the bunker.I think if he ran by with first attack he could have done much more damage. Killer ended up losing but you might be able to get something from the vod anyways. These are the only vods that I remember of "recent" games.
icystorage Philippines. May 08 2012 12:56. Posts 3718
On May 08 2012 11:45 Jaevlaterran wrote: sure, a wall can be tight. But that can be checked early with the first lings and then avoid going ling all in. In PvZ this is more reactionary in the sense that if there's a back door or a bad looking wall (some maps are practically impossible to get good walls) then this is an option. Plus many lings can get through tight walls as long as they are microed well and the walls aren't out of the ordinary. 2 ctrl groups get a tight standard wall with target firing and micro without problems.
Another thought I have would be a super early evo chamber to get +1 carapace for the bust. Anyone ever tried this?
Upgrades take too long to be considered early enough to actually "bust." Requires chamber (-1 larvae), 150 more gas (- minerals) and you have to wait until your upgrade finishes to get maximum effect. Better to invest in another hatchery and get more lings.
Also, with only 1 zealot and one canon, it isn't too unfeasible that you could kill the gateway or the forge then flood in zerglings like it's the 4th of july.
but its not like the protoss would just sit there and watch you kill his gateway, i doubt he won't warp in additional cannons and probably pull some probes
Last edit: 2012-05-08 12:56:43
Leta for bonjwa | Forever Iris fan | BuGzlToOnl is my hero
Yeah, I've been experimenting with early evo chambers and 9 pool speed style openings, but instead going evo first. The timing I'm looking at is when, by starting an upgrade (carapace or melee) first and then speed, you spawn as many lings as you have time to, and attacking at the exact moment that both speed and +1 carapace/ melee finnishes. They can finish at the exact same time if planned carefully. I'm planning to force a toss buddy of mine to practice walls with me vs me practicing ling timings and experimenting with builds and maybe that can yield shed some light on the subject. It does seem as Release pointed out, that the cost of carapace completely screws with the amount of lings being pumped. Melee seems "more possible" to manage.
IIRC I've seem someone do a +1 melee speedling all in, in foreign BW on circuit breaker. Anyone remember the game? It was a while ago tho. The gas needs to be early, so this style typically turns it very all in style. Maybe not the optimum build vs toss but against other races. I'll try some more variations.
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