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| hiro protagonist May 15 2012 06:42. Posts 1029 | Profile # |
EBWOP:
Basicly, I think that using roles to control the top spots picks is superior to using double picks because:
*power roles that can cotrol the cpr doc are more usful later in the game when we can use the role for towns advatage.
* choseing a RBer denys' the role for scum.
* Double picking will lead to VTowns, but not VScums.
On May 15 2012 06:16 deconduo wrote:
If we do decide to go with set picks, we need to have a solid decision before the draft order goes through. Mafia will change their preferences based on what positions they get so we can't have any more discussion once the order is revealed.
100% agree. We make a plan, and there is no changing it after the draft phase.
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| | "I guess if you climb enough off-widths, one of these days, your gonna get your knee stuck and shit your pants. Its just an odds thing really" -Jason Kruk |
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| slOosh May 15 2012 07:19. Posts 1921 | Profile # |
| What's to say #2 won't lie about 'picking' CPR and getting vanilla and choose a low priority role? |
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| Toadesstern Germany. May 15 2012 07:22. Posts 6103 | Profile # |
On May 15 2012 06:42 hiro protagonist wrote:EBWOP: Basicly, I think that using roles to control the top spots picks is superior to using double picks because: *power roles that can cotrol the cpr doc are more usful later in the game when we can use the role for towns advatage. * choseing a RBer denys' the role for scum. * Double picking will lead to VTowns, but not VScums.
Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 06:16 deconduo wrote:
If we do decide to go with set picks, we need to have a solid decision before the draft order goes through. Mafia will change their preferences based on what positions they get so we can't have any more discussion once the order is revealed.
100% agree. We make a plan, and there is no changing it after the draft phase.
well we're only talking about one guy who is supposed to doublepick and I think we can deal with a single VT on top of what we're going to get anyways if that helps us with keeping KP low.
Also it's nice information for the guy who ends up being a VT. |
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| slOosh May 15 2012 07:32. Posts 1921 | Profile # |
| Also I want to discuss the Copy Cat further - it says that it copies the first power role, and with the possibility that scum will take something like angry vig and shoot whoever to copy cat the janitor/cpr? Shouldn't it be a role up for denial solely because it has the capability to copy roles that are up for denial? (Unless I'm misunderstanding something here). |
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| hiro protagonist May 15 2012 07:37. Posts 1029 | Profile # |
On May 15 2012 07:32 slOosh wrote:
Also I want to discuss the Copy Cat further - it says that it copies the first power role, and with the possibility that scum will take something like angry vig and shoot whoever to copy cat the janitor/cpr? Shouldn't it be a role up for denial solely because it has the capability to copy roles that are up for denial? (Unless I'm misunderstanding something here).
This is only a problem if the first lynch is vanilla. If thats the case, we simply have the med/jailkeeper protect the cpr/janitor overnight. copycat should not be a problem.
Im off to work, should be back later tonight. |
| | "I guess if you climb enough off-widths, one of these days, your gonna get your knee stuck and shit your pants. Its just an odds thing really" -Jason Kruk |
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| Misder United States. May 15 2012 07:39. Posts 1018 | Profile # |
I would rather have RB be used for a more useful purpose than just defending him(her)self. RB differs from CPR and Janitor in that those two roles cannot be used as town whereas RB can be.
Also, with your plan, we still cannot guarantee that the first person has CPR, which means that mafia can easily transfer it down to a scumbuddy without us knowing, which is extremely dangerous.
I would rather have vanilla townies than risk having mafia have 2 KP. |
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| slOosh May 15 2012 07:44. Posts 1921 | Profile # |
On May 15 2012 07:37 hiro protagonist wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 07:32 slOosh wrote:
Also I want to discuss the Copy Cat further - it says that it copies the first power role, and with the possibility that scum will take something like angry vig and shoot whoever to copy cat the janitor/cpr? Shouldn't it be a role up for denial solely because it has the capability to copy roles that are up for denial? (Unless I'm misunderstanding something here).
This is only a problem if the first lynch is vanilla. If thats the case, we simply have the med/jailkeeper protect the cpr/janitor overnight. copycat should not be a problem. Im off to work, should be back later tonight.
Don't meds and jailors only have 1 KP protect each? As in, if mafia stack their mafia shot and use say a vig shot it will kill the person unless they have multiple protective roles on them. Or the angry vig who will blast through anything.
I guess witch could be a decent counter measure but I feel like it is a waste of its potential role power, which is getting a list of who is dying and being able to save one of them (higher chance of save because smaller pool of people to save from).
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| Misder United States. May 15 2012 07:47. Posts 1018 | Profile # |
| Also, thought about the second person choosing CPR lying about checking if the CPR doctor, but that would only happen if that person was scum as that information is crucial for town to have. But scum have to at least try for CPR imo just in case someone defects the plan anyways, so then it would not matter. |
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| slOosh May 15 2012 07:49. Posts 1921 | Profile # |
On May 15 2012 07:39 Misder wrote:
I would rather have RB be used for a more useful purpose than just defending him(her)self. RB differs from CPR and Janitor in that those two roles cannot be used as town whereas RB can be.
Also, with your plan, we still cannot guarantee that the first person has CPR, which means that mafia can easily transfer it down to a scumbuddy without us knowing, which is extremely dangerous.
I would rather have vanilla townies than risk having mafia have 2 KP.
So say we guarantee that the roles are limited to the top 4 picks. I still don't see how it prevents mafia from blatantly using CPR - how will we be able to attribute night kills to specific roles? |
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| Qatol United States. May 15 2012 07:52. Posts 3010 | Profile Blog # |
On May 15 2012 06:42 hiro protagonist wrote:EBWOP: Basicly, I think that using roles to control the top spots picks is superior to using double picks because: *power roles that can cotrol the cpr doc are more usful later in the game when we can use the role for towns advatage. * choseing a RBer denys' the role for scum. * Double picking will lead to VTowns, but not VScums.
Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 06:16 deconduo wrote:
If we do decide to go with set picks, we need to have a solid decision before the draft order goes through. Mafia will change their preferences based on what positions they get so we can't have any more discussion once the order is revealed.
100% agree. We make a plan, and there is no changing it after the draft phase.
I also agree that the assigned picks shouldn't be changed after the draft order is announced.
I offer an alternative to double picking both Janitor and CPR: have the 3rd player randomly pick one of the two roles and select it. I'm okay with a 50/50 gamble to discourage the mafia from allowing the role to fall down. If they are wrong, they lose a member (the player who didn't select the role) AND the role. I think that's enough to discourage such a gambit.
You could try to control the pick with the roleblocker instead, but then you risk having the mafia allow a role like CPR to fall and you wind up roleblocking the wrong player for a while until you figure out there's an extra KP. I still don't think roleblocker is a high priority scum pick, so the denial value is limited. And I think the town benefits a lot more from having the location of the roleblocker remain hidden.
As far as the traitor goes, we can't control when or if it will be picked. But neither can the mafia. I think the best policy regarding that role is to remind everyone that whenever it is picked, it has been picked twice, usually within the top 10, so you don't tend to last long with that pick. And the player doesn't even get to join the mafia chat or anything this time. Our best policy for the time being is just to ignore the role and worry about it once the picks are in.
On May 15 2012 07:32 slOosh wrote:
Also I want to discuss the Copy Cat further - it says that it copies the first power role, and with the possibility that scum will take something like angry vig and shoot whoever to copy cat the janitor/cpr? Shouldn't it be a role up for denial solely because it has the capability to copy roles that are up for denial? (Unless I'm misunderstanding something here).
The SK shot is resolved before the Angry Vigi's shot. So is the day 1 lynch. While the mafia shot comes first at night, there is obviously a high incentive to protect one of the first 2 players on night 1. Plus there's always the witch protection (witch is better when used night 1-2ish anyways to keep more potential blues in the game longer, slow the game down more, and reduce the risk that the witch will get shot before using the protection). I don't think the copycat is a particularly appealing role for the mafia in this kind of setup. |
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| Misder United States. May 15 2012 08:06. Posts 1018 | Profile # |
On May 15 2012 07:49 slOosh wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 07:39 Misder wrote:
I would rather have RB be used for a more useful purpose than just defending him(her)self. RB differs from CPR and Janitor in that those two roles cannot be used as town whereas RB can be.
Also, with your plan, we still cannot guarantee that the first person has CPR, which means that mafia can easily transfer it down to a scumbuddy without us knowing, which is extremely dangerous.
I would rather have vanilla townies than risk having mafia have 2 KP.
So say we guarantee that the roles are limited to the top 4 picks. I still don't see how it prevents mafia from blatantly using CPR - how will we be able to attribute night kills to specific roles?
Well, first, the mafia has to be the first CPR from them to use the role. We won't be able to attribute night kills to roles anyways (unless tracker). The difference is that we know where the CPR is, and we will know when someone is abusing the power when there is consistently 2 Mafia KP. |
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| Toadesstern Germany. May 15 2012 08:06. Posts 6103 | Profile # |
On May 15 2012 07:39 Misder wrote:
I would rather have RB be used for a more useful purpose than just defending him(her)self. RB differs from CPR and Janitor in that those two roles cannot be used as town whereas RB can be.
Also, with your plan, we still cannot guarantee that the first person has CPR, which means that mafia can easily transfer it down to a scumbuddy without us knowing, which is extremely dangerous.
I would rather have vanilla townies than risk having mafia have 2 KP.
Imo Town RB is about the hardest role you can play. I think it's way easier to play a nice town-CPR even on day than it is to play a nice Town-RB. I say that although I totally agree with Qatol saying that the CPR is incredible hard to play the first 1 or even 2 days and totally agree with him saying that it's at least a coinflip considering wether a townie or a mafia get's hit.
So no, I don't actually think you can put good use to a town-RB, especially not early on as in n1 and n2. |
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| Toadesstern Germany. May 15 2012 08:12. Posts 6103 | Profile # |
Also someone (I think Qatol?) said something about the Tracker being a horrible choice for town. I actually like it way more than the two DT's and think it's the best information role together with gun-bob for town.
What's the reasoning behind saying the Tracker is a horrible choice for town? |
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| Qatol United States. May 15 2012 08:16. Posts 3010 | Profile Blog # |
On May 15 2012 08:12 Toadesstern wrote:
Also someone (I think Qatol?) said something about the Tracker being a horrible choice for town. I actually like it way more than the two DT's and think it's the best information role together with gun-bob for town.
What's the reasoning behind saying the Tracker is a horrible choice for town?
Tracker only follows mafia/SK to the kill if they used their role to make the kill or they are vanilla. For example, a serial killer veteran would never seem to go anywhere if tracked. Similarly, a doctor mafia member protecting a teammate would be tracked to the teammate, not the mafia kill. |
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| Toadesstern Germany. May 15 2012 08:30. Posts 6103 | Profile # |
On May 15 2012 08:16 Qatol wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 08:12 Toadesstern wrote:
Also someone (I think Qatol?) said something about the Tracker being a horrible choice for town. I actually like it way more than the two DT's and think it's the best information role together with gun-bob for town.
What's the reasoning behind saying the Tracker is a horrible choice for town?
Tracker only follows mafia/SK to the kill if they used their role to make the kill or they are vanilla. For example, a serial killer veteran would never seem to go anywhere if tracked. Similarly, a doctor mafia member protecting a teammate would be tracked to the teammate, not the mafia kill.
that seems stupid. Why include a tracker when mafia / SK don't have to deliver the killing blow oO
Do we have that stated by GM somewhere?
Can the Tracker find out about a Goon mafia or a Goon SK killing someone when following them?
If that's the case, yeah Tracker is really stupid for town but I can't think of GM including a Tracker if he can't track normal mafia / SK kills. |
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| PaqMan United States. May 15 2012 08:46. Posts 1403 | Profile Blog # |
| So all these plans that've popped up revolve around a mass roleclaim? Or is it just intended for the CPR and Janitor? |
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| Misder United States. May 15 2012 08:52. Posts 1018 | Profile # |
No, they revolve around denying mafia roles for an instawin (okay, maybe a bit exaggerated but not really).
I would also say no mass roleclaim cause that gives mafia way too much information. |
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| Qatol United States. May 15 2012 08:52. Posts 3010 | Profile Blog # |
On May 15 2012 08:30 Toadesstern wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 08:16 Qatol wrote:
On May 15 2012 08:12 Toadesstern wrote:
Also someone (I think Qatol?) said something about the Tracker being a horrible choice for town. I actually like it way more than the two DT's and think it's the best information role together with gun-bob for town.
What's the reasoning behind saying the Tracker is a horrible choice for town?
Tracker only follows mafia/SK to the kill if they used their role to make the kill or they are vanilla. For example, a serial killer veteran would never seem to go anywhere if tracked. Similarly, a doctor mafia member protecting a teammate would be tracked to the teammate, not the mafia kill.
that seems stupid. Why include a tracker when mafia / SK don't have to deliver the killing blow oO Do we have that stated by GM somewhere? Can the Tracker find out about a Goon mafia or a Goon SK killing someone when following them?If that's the case, yeah Tracker is really stupid for town but I can't think of GM including a Tracker if he can't track normal mafia / SK kills.
It's in the role description.
On May 06 2012 03:06 GMarshal wrote:
Tracker Follow someone and find out the first person they visited that night. (role abilities supersede alignment based abilities for the purpose of tracking. E.G if you were to track a scum roleblocker, you would see who he roleblocked, not who he killed. If you tracked a scum Veteran, you'd see him stay home, even if he carried out a kill, as his role ability (Veteran) is what you track, not his factional kill)
This is also how it worked in previous PYPs (PYP2 for example). |
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| Toadesstern Germany. May 15 2012 09:08. Posts 6103 | Profile # |
On May 15 2012 08:52 Qatol wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 08:30 Toadesstern wrote:
On May 15 2012 08:16 Qatol wrote:
On May 15 2012 08:12 Toadesstern wrote:
Also someone (I think Qatol?) said something about the Tracker being a horrible choice for town. I actually like it way more than the two DT's and think it's the best information role together with gun-bob for town.
What's the reasoning behind saying the Tracker is a horrible choice for town?
Tracker only follows mafia/SK to the kill if they used their role to make the kill or they are vanilla. For example, a serial killer veteran would never seem to go anywhere if tracked. Similarly, a doctor mafia member protecting a teammate would be tracked to the teammate, not the mafia kill.
that seems stupid. Why include a tracker when mafia / SK don't have to deliver the killing blow oO Do we have that stated by GM somewhere? Can the Tracker find out about a Goon mafia or a Goon SK killing someone when following them?If that's the case, yeah Tracker is really stupid for town but I can't think of GM including a Tracker if he can't track normal mafia / SK kills.
It's in the role description.
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 03:06 GMarshal wrote:
Tracker Follow someone and find out the first person they visited that night. (role abilities supersede alignment based abilities for the purpose of tracking. E.G if you were to track a scum roleblocker, you would see who he roleblocked, not who he killed. If you tracked a scum Veteran, you'd see him stay home, even if he carried out a kill, as his role ability (Veteran) is what you track, not his factional kill)
This is also how it worked in previous PYPs (PYP2 for example).
well that is stupid. In that case I agree, the Tracker is retarded for town. |
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| PaqMan United States. May 15 2012 09:20. Posts 1403 | Profile Blog # |
On May 15 2012 08:52 Misder wrote:
No, they revolve around denying mafia roles for an instawin (okay, maybe a bit exaggerated but not really).
I would also say no mass roleclaim cause that gives mafia way too much information.
I agree with that, but would we want whoever obtains CPR to claim? I can see the pros and cons of the CPR claiming but that's the only thing that's confused me regarding all these different plans. |
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