Pick Your Power: Redux - Page 23

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On May 16 2012 03:22 Qatol wrote:
Ugh, you people post too much.

Toadesstern, I'm sorry you feel like I'm stealing your thunder. It wasn't intentional. Like PaqMan said, your posts definitely aren't being ignored. Nobody is calling your ideas retarded. In fact, most of us agree with them! I'm willing to talk to you more in depth about your posting, but I don't think mid-game is the right context for that. Shoot me a PM after the game ends/ after we both die and we can talk. Also, I think I have you beat by a few years on the idea of assigning specific roles to specific draft slots.

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Sandroba, there is also a reason that a lot of games involving a lot of town KP end in disaster if the KP is used early (see Responsibility Mafia for example). Assigning the role does accomplish what we want to accomplish. It puts the role at a known spot in the queue, which allows the role to be roleblocked by a Roleblocker or Jailkeeper later in the queue if they wish. It also forces the mafia to take the role with the first pick if they want it. Meanwhile, if a townie gets the role, then we have effectively taken one of the most dangerous roles out of play for the mafia. Assigning the 50/50 pick for the 3rd player isn't just about denying CPR, it's also about denying Janitor. The point is we don't want to see the role used at all, it isn't just that we are worried about finding scum after the role is used (although that is a perk).

Regarding the Godfather, the point everyone else has is that the Godfather role simply isn't that strong a selection for the mafia. There are far more concerning selections anyways. Plus, if you're worried about the role, just consider taking it (if you don't have a top 3 pick). This advice applies to everyone and every role. The point is that we don't want the mafia to feel safe taking anything (other than Tracker). Also, could you re-post the Carolus Magnus post on your Sandroba account? You're messing up your filter for later if you don't.

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Barundar/Bluelightz, the problem with denying more roles than just 2 is you wind up in a situation where the mafia has a very good idea of what each player is going to be selecting. This is problematic for a few reasons.

First, the mafia/SK can simply take roles they want before they are assigned and feel relatively comfortable that they will get their role. We don't want them to feel comfortable selecting anything, especially not the roles they specifically want. We want them to have to weigh the danger that a role will be selected against the value that role brings to their team. We want to force them to select roles they don't want as much because they're worried that selecting the roles they do want will be too dangerous. Alternatively, we want them to try to select a role they really want, but miss and wind up with vanilla members. Both situations are a huge win for the town.

Second, we don't want the mafia/SK to know where to shoot to hit the roles they are concerned about. The problem with assigning too many roles is the mafia/SK know where those roles are, so if we want to commit to keeping them alive, we have to use our protections on them, which gives the mafia/SK more confidence when shooting other players. We want them to spend their time shooting into players with defensive roles and/or players who have defensively selected a role but don't intend to use it. The odds that they will do such a thing go up significantly if we assign fewer roles.

Barundar, the problem with your role cop plan (as mentioned by zelblade and Bluelightz) is that there aren't enough roles which can confirm role selection. Because of this, it is not worth the drawbacks (mentioned above) of assigning every role in exchange for allowing 1 role + 1 JOAT check (note: it is a role check only) + sometimes a Bullet Bill check the ability to check if people followed the plan. For all you know, the mafia may even want the role they are assigned, which causes even more problems.

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Regarding roles, I'm surprised people are pointing out the danger of Angry Vigilante when I find Vigilante to be far scarier. Sure Angry Vigilante bypasses the first protection. But how often do we get medic protections anyways? And what are the odds that the player shot will be protected by a medic. It allows the mafia to beat a medic and kill an experienced player night 1 if they want, but it's a one-shot ability and the mafia are still gambling that the player didn't pick something like Hider or Veteran + attracted protection or happens to be the SK. Meanwhile, Vigilante allows the mafia to take out 2 players and speed up the game that much more - a far more dangerous ability.

SK Politician is a powerful selection. However, it only assists the SK in the lategame. It is the town + the mafia's job to make sure that the SK doesn't make it to the lategame. Besides, the selection isn't without its dangers - if a role check is used on the SK, it's going to be pretty obvious what his alignment is if he has Politician and hasn't claimed it.

Pardoner doesn't scare me - it slows down the game and I'm more worried about the mafia speeding the game up. While it can be used to confuse the town, it isn't as devastating as other selections they could make. Remember, the mafia have to use one of their 4 role selections on this role. I think they have more value elsewhere.

Misder, please read my earlier posts on the copycat. Mafia only have 1 KP, so they can't stack on anyone. SK shoots before any roles get their shots, so Mafia would lose the ability to control the copycatted role.

Deconduo, I disagree with using a tiering system (labeling specific roles as picks people high in the list should consider). And I definitely disagree with you that Witch, Jailkeeper, and Hider are bad roles. Hider is probably the best defensive role out there because you are completely immune to night kills as long as you are hiding behind a low priority kill target. Personally, I think it is much stronger than Veteran. Witch and Jailkeeper are 2 of our 4 protection roles (along with Doctor and JOAT). Why on earth are you trying to take them out of play? Both of them are better selections for most town players than something like Roleblocker for example.

I only partially disagree that Framers should be lynched if checked. I think Framer is a decent denial selection for a townie. However, I think this role has to come with a caveat: if you get it, you have to claim it.

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