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| nucLeaRTV Romania. May 06 2012 21:55. Posts 709 | Profile # |
Apparently most of the players (even pro gamers) have trouble with PvT late game. So do I, unfortunately. From the moment they get +3 +1/2 +3, chargelots, 5-8 colossi, 5-8 archons, some HT and some Stalkers I consider myself dead. I mean, I try to micro, stutter step, EMP the HTs and Archons, focus the colossi with vikings, fight near my buildings so zealots don't get a surround, but I still lose quite bad.
I understand I need to make damage in mid-game, but if I try and I don't, does that mean I should gg without a fight? Here's a replay of a game I played today. Perhaps somebody can tell me where I screwed up and so on.
The game:
+ Show Spoiler +
I opened with a 1 rax into double expand on Antiga. I proceeded to get fast 3 rax, 2 bunkers (for any kind of push) and then went to medivacs. I pushed out at about 2 medivacs and when I had 4 I tried a double prong attack (2 medivacs for drop in main, 2 for push in natural). He defended quite well, none of us lost too much in the fights, just traded some units (equal in units lost). I took my 3rd quite hidden, then I took a fast 4th on the normal 3rd. I proceeded to get my upgrades/ghost academy/more rax. At a point i had about 50 more supply, but that was caused because of the fact that I had too many SCVs as well. When he got maxed out, he pushed my, I defended acceptably, we both traded quite equally, but then he made 2 more warps of units and pushed again, moment where I wasn't maxed again. My units died quite fast because I was just rebuilding stuff (medivacs, ghosts, MM).
PS: I know at a point I lost 2 medivacs, but as you can see I tied the units lost tab pretty fast. Then late game came.
http://drop.sc/173478Last edit: 2012-05-06 23:18:25 |
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| fastr France. May 06 2012 22:09. Posts 230 | Profile # |
I'll watch the replay. What league are you in?
edit: I'm only mid-diamond myself since i recently switched from zerg to terran, so take my advices with a grain of salt.
So you did a 1rax expend into fast third cc, which I think is a good build as long as you can get away with it. You scouted his fast nexus which was a good thing, but no scouting after that. I like to scan the main at 6:30 to see if there is a robo or other tech route. If you don't wanna scan, i would at least sac an scv at the front and try to count how many sentries he has.
The second thing i noted is you're not constantly producing scv. You're at 42 scv at the 10 minutes mark, when with a build like this you should be around 55. You have good apm but I think it's ok to always queue up 2 scv at diamond level so you don't miss any. Just my personal opinion though.
Also, with a macro oriented build like that, I think it would be a good idea to throw down double engineering bay since you're aiming for the mid/late game. As a rule of thumb, I'd say always pair macro oriented build orders with fast upgrades.
At 12:00 you attempt to drop him with 2 medivacs, but he sees you with his obs and is prepared for it. When i push the map like this, i always try to spot the observer by zooming/unzooming (a trick i learnd on BoxeR's stream) before I drop. When your 2 medivacs get killed, you should probably back away, your second drop only did damages because the opponent reacter poorly imo. You had the advantage on income and I think it wasn't necessary, but i could be wrong.
At 16:00 I think you end up with 88 scv. This is way too much and it's cutting on your army size. 3 bases with optimal saturation is 66 scv (16 on mineral and 6 on gaz per base), try not to go over 70.
You never researched concussive shell and +3 armor. It can happen, but upgrades are important.
Your macro and multitask was better than your opponent, but the errors mentioned below costs you the game. If you can correct them, your winrate vs protoss will improve a lot, you have the skill to pull it off, tvp is just an unforgiving match-up atm. Good luck on ladder.Last edit: 2012-05-06 22:37:04 |
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| nucLeaRTV Romania. May 06 2012 22:09. Posts 709 | Profile # |
| Top Plat and low Dia on other acc. (you can see my rank via drop.sc, as well) Last edit: 2012-05-06 22:10:11 |
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 Josh_rakoons United Kingdom. May 06 2012 22:16. Posts 1157 | Profile # |
| Well first of all, don't build 87 scvs, that's the major reason why you lost. Last edit: 2012-05-06 22:17:32 |
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| nucLeaRTV Romania. May 06 2012 22:17. Posts 709 | Profile # |
| At a point before one major fight I killed about 10 of them because I realized I had a few too many. Then again, how do I know when to stop making scvs? |
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| Josh_rakoons United Kingdom. May 06 2012 22:18. Posts 1157 | Profile # |
| When your fully saturated on 3 base + 4th gases are saturated. |
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| Josh_rakoons United Kingdom. May 06 2012 22:21. Posts 1157 | Profile # |
| Also, trying to fight up that ramp on antiga is really stupid and nearly impossible to be cost effective. Try doing 2/3 medivac drops round the side when he is just camping the watchtower. |
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| nucLeaRTV Romania. May 06 2012 22:28. Posts 709 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 22:21 Josh_rakoons wrote:
Also, trying to fight up that ramp on antiga is really stupid and nearly impossible to be cost effective. Try doing 2/3 medivac drops round the side when he is just camping the watchtower.
But if I do that and they push wouldn't that be even worse? I mean you just told me 15 less army supply killed me (scvs). Wouldn't the same happen if I have about 30 less army supply ? |
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| Josh_rakoons United Kingdom. May 06 2012 22:31. Posts 1157 | Profile # |
| Just don't engage and go for a base trade. |
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| nucLeaRTV Romania. May 06 2012 22:34. Posts 709 | Profile # |
| Considering this game, If he attacked and i did a 3 medivac drop, how could I escape from my part of map without engaging him ? |
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| qapuk United States. May 06 2012 22:36. Posts 68 | Profile # |
Hey, I am a master protoss, and here's what I thought of the game.
First of all, you had a major supply difference in the midgame, I personally think it is better to max out more slowly while getting all of your tech faster. It is normally better to have alot of medivac vs double forge colossus, and heavy bio less medivac vs double forge ht. So you ended up being max waaaaaaay faster than the protoss but you cant really do much w/o good tech.
I'd say spot the colossus tech faster and hold onto the 5-6 rax a LITTLE bit longer for stronger mid game drop. Move out to middle of map first then add 4-6 rax, 3 base, more tech etc, protoss can't attack you during this time, you'll win every base trade during this stage of the game. Also as protoss it isn't easy to defend 3 base against heavy medivac play when I go double forge colossus.
Next, The max vs max engagement looked really good for you actually, but i thought you were caught unprepared cause you were on move command. I liked your composition however, you should make more ghost, like alot, Idk how much, but some player I play against make 12 ghosts. And constantly scanning + emp, especially when the protoss is in your face like that, even if you dont plan to be the one attacking him, you want to emp him before they come and attack you. Hit those zealots before they spread out. Also, fight behind/next to the buildings, not in front of it.
Probably the last advice I have is, you made too many scvs, when you are max out like that with that many orbital, i'd say at least sack 20 scvs and make more medivacs/ghost.
I don't think that was as one sided as you think it was, It was pretty close, you just starting losing on remax because you didnt have proper tech to defend go against his remax tech.Last edit: 2012-05-06 22:40:06 |
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| fastr France. May 06 2012 22:42. Posts 230 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 22:17 nucLeaRTV wrote:
At a point before one major fight I killed about 10 of them because I realized I had a few too many. Then again, how do I know when to stop making scvs?
ctrl + click on one of your scv, or double click one. Optimal saturation with 2 gas taken should be 2 rows and a half of selected scv (22 minus the 2 on gaz you can't see). When your base is saturated, rally to the next expend. When you're saturated on 3 bases, stop making scv. Transfer to your 4th when you start to mine-out your main, etc. |
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| nucLeaRTV Romania. May 06 2012 22:50. Posts 709 | Profile # |
| Okay, let's say those are the basic mistaskes. What about the 200/200 engagement (when and if it happens). What can I do to prevent this: http://i.imgur.com/RaEwi.jpg |
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| qapuk United States. May 06 2012 22:54. Posts 68 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 22:50 nucLeaRTV wrote:Okay, let's say those are the basic mistaskes. What about the 200/200 engagement (when and if it happens). What can I do to prevent this: http://i.imgur.com/RaEwi.jpg
No? you stood even with him till about 1400..... Then you probably messed up somewhere and trade ineffectively then you can't keep up in supply. You lost cause you didn't have proper tech. He can switch back and forth between HT and Colossus, and YOU need to respond to that. You cant just make bio + medivac, you'll lose. |
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| Josh_rakoons United Kingdom. May 06 2012 22:56. Posts 1157 | Profile # |
They're not "basic" mistakes, they are major mistakes which are game losing.
Instead of trying to find every tiny mistake you make, focus on the bigger ones and try to improve on them. Last edit: 2012-05-06 23:01:11 |
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| zezamer Finland. May 06 2012 23:00. Posts 1805 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 22:50 nucLeaRTV wrote:Okay, let's say those are the basic mistaskes. What about the 200/200 engagement (when and if it happens). What can I do to prevent this: http://i.imgur.com/RaEwi.jpg
You are way too marauder heavy in the late game. You need a lot of marines and ghost to burn down his archons and zealots.
You need to keep upgrading air attack.Last edit: 2012-05-06 23:07:00 |
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| fastr France. May 06 2012 23:01. Posts 230 | Profile # |
| The late-game is always a consequence of what happens earlier in the game. If you apply the advices that has been given to you so far, you will enter the 200/200 engagements with much better preparation, in this case a stronger army due to less scv, a better comp and better upgrades. |
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| nucLeaRTV Romania. May 06 2012 23:07. Posts 709 | Profile # |
| Though I'm afraid to build a more marine heavy army late game due to the fact that they die to archons, colossus and storms much faster. I was asking in the case of a late game normal situtation (full upgardes on both sides, perfect army comp). What can I do that after a even trade I don't die to the first cycle of warps. Shall I make more PFs in the middle of map ? Or bunkers? That's kind of my problem. |
| | "Having your own haters means you are famous" |
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| Thylacine Sweden. May 06 2012 23:08. Posts 882 | Profile # |
| Please put more effort into your OP, gives me the impression you're just a whiner wanting to vent your rage here. |
| | What you're looking at could be the end of a particularly terrifying nightmare. It isn't. It's the beginning. Introducing Mr. John Valentine, air traveler. His destination: the Twilight Zone... | |
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| fastr France. May 06 2012 23:13. Posts 230 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 23:07 nucLeaRTV wrote:
Though I'm afraid to build a more marine heavy army late game due to the fact that they die to archons, colossus and storms much faster. I was asking in the case of a late game normal situtation (full upgardes on both sides, perfect army comp). What can I do that after a even trade I don't die to the first cycle of warps. Shall I make more PFs in the middle of map ? Or bunkers? That's kind of my problem.
Protoss will always have better production in the late game due to warp-in + pylon mechanism, see qxc's blog about that : http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/entry.php?b=2019
This is why in late-game situation you need to mass orbitals and sac scv in order to get a bigger army. |
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