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| Matzee Germany. May 07 2012 06:24. Posts 15 | Profile # |
Hello,
today I got proxyreaperrushed. First he came with 3 SCV's and placed his bunkers like this: http://i.imgur.com/z9fLT.jpg?1
I am quite new to Zerg and never saw this bunker placement. Now my question: What would have been the best reaction? I tried to pull like 12 Drones to atack the bunker but it did not work. So I decided to let my expansion die so I lost a lot of miningtime and my expansion.
Should I take a inbasehatch and tech to roaches? I am not sure if I would be behind (and if yes how much) in this case because he invested a lot into this attack.
I would be glad if someone could give me some tips how to handel this situation.
kind regards,
Matze
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| Aero1441 Netherlands. May 07 2012 06:59. Posts 45 | Profile # |
I would just cancel the hatch, get an in-base hatch and a baneling nest and bust that bunker grouping, while maxxing your main with drones  |
| | To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often... |
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| Zheryn Sweden. May 07 2012 07:10. Posts 1089 | Profile # |
| This is getting more popular after Day[9] did a daily on it a week ago. It's pretty lame and I don't really know the best response, but I feel like you get so far behind if your hatch dies/gets cancelled, since the terran is taking an expansion behind it while you make units to break the contain. I really believe you have to do your best to deny bunkers from coming up with drones and then trying to deny units to enter while getting queens and a spine up asap, and then try to kill his ubnkers with double queens/spine/lings before he kills your hatch. |
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| FairForever Canada. May 07 2012 07:15. Posts 2192 | Profile # |
On May 07 2012 06:24 Matzee wrote:Hello, today I got proxyreaperrushed. First he came with 3 SCV's and placed his bunkers like this: http://i.imgur.com/z9fLT.jpg?1I am quite new to Zerg and never saw this bunker placement. Now my question: What would have been the best reaction? I tried to pull like 12 Drones to atack the bunker but it did not work. So I decided to let my expansion die so I lost a lot of miningtime and my expansion. Should I take a inbasehatch and tech to roaches? I am not sure if I would be behind (and if yes how much) in this case because he invested a lot into this attack. I would be glad if someone could give me some tips how to handel this situation. kind regards, Matze
Replay would really help - I know we can see the picture but there might be some things we can help with.
Did you 12 scout? You really ned to 12 scout - seeing that would give you the knowledge that something is fishy. You will be able to see the tech lab go down (reaper opening), and once you take the tower you can see the three SCVs leaving his base.
Once you see that, you should send one or two drones out (yes, you lose two drones of mining time, but he's losing 3 SCVs) - because you want to prevent him from putting bunkers down in ideal locations (I've also seen bunkers placed right outside ramp too, to block it off - this only requires two SCVs).
Should he somehow get all three bunkers down, you're screwed. That's why you need to scout in every ZvT. |
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| Cejotas Spain. May 07 2012 07:15. Posts 88 | Profile # |
| Spinecrawlers maybe? Your hatch is nearly finished and the bunkers are starting. If not tech to roaches and destroy the bunkers or attack the terran base. Always is better to save the hatch if you can. And with the replay I could analyse it better. Last edit: 2012-05-07 07:16:27 |
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| kiklion May 07 2012 07:17. Posts 97 | Profile # |
| Best thing I could think of, having not seen it, is as soon as you see more than 1 scout scv with your scouting drone or ovi, pull a lot of drones and prevent the bunkers from being placed. |
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| Grohg United States. May 07 2012 07:20. Posts 243 | Profile # |
Get a spine up in your main, drone up and tech to roaches against repears (if he switches to marauders, make more lings). You can break those bunkers with a few roaches/lings easily if he doesn't salvage them. An in base hatch is iffy...I would just produce another queen and get a lot of drones and zerglings. Anytime you get proxied, try to run lings out to see if he was careless and left his front door open. 8 lings can cripple him...with a spine, 2 queens and lings/roaches popping out at home you should be fine. If you survive and break out, you are in an ok position...re-expand immediately send units over to put pressure back on. A proxy opening is often followed up by greedy teching or economy. Putting pressure back on your opponent has a chance to deny his expansion while securing your own. Sometimes this pressure can even kill him if he played risky.
The bunker placement usually doesn't matter in the end if they get them up. Your response should be the same...your extra queen can push creep out and allow you to get your spine closer to the ramp. This is important...if you can keep your opponent from coming into you base while you get the required tech to break out, you aren't in a terrible position. Most of all, be patient...rushing only hurts you in these positions. |
| | You can't spell slaughter without laughter. |
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| Pwere Canada. May 07 2012 09:19. Posts 952 | Profile # |
Ideally, it should go like this:
12 Scout, nothing in his base:
- Bring back the scouting drone
- Cancel extractor/stop mining gas
- Pull 5+ drones to natural immediately, have them mine and then rally to hatchery
- Have 2 scout around for what he is proxying exactly/harass the building scvs
- As soon as you see a single SCV/marine near your natural, attack it with all the drones you brought out
- He'll have trouble placing bunkers with drones attacking, or you get to kill some workers
- Build a spine crawler as soon as your hatch finishes (some prefer to start it in main and move it down)
- Build queens/zerglings
On some maps, you'll want to protect the area close to the ramp to make sure marines can't wall themselves off behind bunkers there. Usually if he gets up a single bunker, you're way behind already, or simply dead if it was abusively placed.
Losing your expansion isn't really an option, although Leenock used to do that pretty effectively and still win some games.Last edit: 2012-05-07 09:20:54 |
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| phzbox Cape Verde. May 07 2012 09:39. Posts 38 | Profile # |
It's hard to beat that if you don't scout it. But the best bet is usually to cancel the hatch and either go for an all-in with ling/bane or macro up.
And, my personal take on this is that players who do that kind of cheese usually aren't very good later on. So, I'd just cancel hatch and rebuild it inside, get ling speed + spine and mass drones. And then, the more the game goes on, the more you have chances to macro better, create flanks, harass him and win. You'd be surprised the number of games I won where I was in that kind of position and just played my best. Obviously, if your opponent is as good as you or better, he'll be way ahead and will probably win.. Thus, the best counter is really to scout and see it coming.
Note that even the best players, such as Stephano, loses to cheese like this. Stephano usually says something like (With his cute french accent) : "That game was useless. I don't ladder to win points, I ladder to practice and get better".. and then he leaves. So, don't be too sad about that  A safe bet is to always scout 10-12.. at your level (and mine.. which is less than GM), that drone won't make a huge difference as we'll both make hundreds of mistakes worst than that.. but that could help you not lose to this kind of cheese. |
| | Rhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaoooooouwuz (Overlord spawning) |
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| phzbox Cape Verde. May 07 2012 09:42. Posts 38 | Profile # |
| Oh, I should add, when I smell a big cheese coming from terran, I usually go 14g 14p. I'd suggest watching Apollo's videos.. as he simply go 14g14p every game vs T and easily manage to win. I.e. Unless you play at the highest level, that won't make a huge difference but will help you avoid losing to cheeses like that. However, when I scout fast hellion, I simply put down the hatch and go very greedy xD |
| | Rhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaoooooouwuz (Overlord spawning) |
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| FairForever Canada. May 07 2012 09:47. Posts 2192 | Profile # |
On May 07 2012 09:42 phzbox wrote:
Oh, I should add, when I smell a big cheese coming from terran, I usually go 14g 14p. I'd suggest watching Apollo's videos.. as he simply go 14g14p every game vs T and easily manage to win. I.e. Unless you play at the highest level, that won't make a huge difference but will help you avoid losing to cheeses like that. However, when I scout fast hellion, I simply put down the hatch and go very greedy xD
This is the worst advice. 14g/14p is significantly slower than 15h - yes your opponent tends to play a bit more carefully vs 14g/14p but there's a reason it's not used at the highest level at all, and it's because its SLOW. A lot of zergs used 14g/14p in some matchups (eg. Nestea vs Inca in the GSL finals every set) before they realized how slow it is. There is NO need for you to have speed that early against terran, unless you plan to cheese. You should learn to hatch first because barring some significant nerf to zerg it's the optimal opening anyway, so may as well get a lot of practice now (no such thing as "smelling cheese" - what he said was complete crap, unless you know you're playing a cheeser over and over again, which is super rare in diamond).
Also cancelling the hatch is a bad idea, you've lost 96% of the time. If you're going to cancel the hatch I'd just leave the game.
Just send a 12 scout, count workers, and if it's obvious workers are lacking, you need to have drones at your expansion ready to block any potential bunkers.
When you get more advanced you also realize the typical bunker locations for marines and reapers differ so you'll watch out for different spots depending on what you see with the 12 scout as well. But don't worry about that for now. |
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| Clarity_nl Netherlands. May 07 2012 10:15. Posts 3283 | Profile # |
15 hatch can hold anything that terran can throw at it.
Do not 14/14.
Apollo shows 14/14 because it's a build that works well enough in all three matchups and is very flexible.
He shows it for people extremely new to the game.
Replay would help but once those three bunkers all go down you lose your expo and will lose unless your opponent messed up. Try to keep a scouting drone alive and if you see three scvs coming you should pre-emptively pull a ton of drones from your main.Last edit: 2012-05-07 10:17:02 |
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| Northern_iight Canada. May 07 2012 10:38. Posts 344 | Profile # |
if that goes up, it is GG. your hatch is almost completed so if you cancel the hatch. terran will cancel all his bunkers (his bunkers were just started). The only to counter this to scout early and over react.
After you 9 or 10 scout, bring that drone to the watch tower near your base.
You more than 1 scv headed towards you, you must pull drones to defend. How many drones? I would say 3 per SCV and 2 per marine.
If it's a reaper, it would be delayed a bit so you will just have to prevent the bunkers from going up. if he is building 3 bunkers would you see the 3 scvs and would be attacking atleast two of the bunkers. The last one should be taken care of by the spine + 2 queens. I wouldn't build more than 6 lings in this situation vs reaper because lings melt to them, but instead drone after to compensate the slower econ. |
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| tuestresfat May 07 2012 14:26. Posts 2484 | Profile # |
for this game in particular it might not have been a bad idea to cancel the hatch and just baneling bust O___o
to stop this rush though i agree with what some others have already said.
1. pull plenty of drones, at least deny the two outer bunkers from completing if you can't stop all 3.
2. start a spine asap on the other side of the hatch, in range of the bunkers but out of range of a reaper within said bunker.
3. if the bunker completes with the reaper avoid losing drones and let the spine do its job. if he's outrepairing / out dps-ing, wait to the last moment and box all your units and kill that bunker with everything you have. if you fail it's gg.
edit: don't 14/14 thats the dumbest thing you could do because of this.Last edit: 2012-05-07 14:27:08 |
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| Matzee Germany. May 07 2012 18:55. Posts 15 | Profile # |
On May 07 2012 09:39 phzbox wrote:Note that even the best players, such as Stephano, loses to cheese like this. Stephano usually says something like (With his cute french accent) : "That game was useless. I don't ladder to win points, I ladder to practice and get better".. and then he leaves. So, don't be too sad about that A safe bet is to always scout 10-12.. at your level (and mine.. which is less than GM), that drone won't make a huge difference as we'll both make hundreds of mistakes worst than that.. but that could help you not lose to this kind of cheese.
Oh I am not mad because I get cheesed. Actually I am quite happy if I get cheesed because I need practice against it (I play Zerg since 4 days). In this game I did not even lose to this cheese. I let my hatch die and made roaches. Then I made enough dmg to make the game even (maybe I was a bit ahead). Then I still lost after 30 minutes because I played very very bad. The thing is that I dont think my reaction was not the right one. He could just have made 1 Marauder and 1 bunker and would be save.
I did not scout this game because I am still testing stuff a lot (for example I saw a few games from Stephano where he did not scout).
If I dont scout a rax in his base it could be just hidden next to his base to force me to overreact. So that should not be the point which brings me to pull many drones off mining.
I think the key point in holding this cheese is scouting the other 2 workers going out of his base. If I also scouted Gas it means that it is no 2 rax. Dont you think you need gas against reapers?
sorry for my bad English :/
Last edit: 2012-05-07 18:59:34 |
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 p4NDemik United States. May 07 2012 19:42. Posts 13832 | Profile Blog # | |
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