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| Dark.EX United States. May 08 2012 08:59. Posts 1504 | Profile Blog # |
I feel like this is turning into another Destiny thread.
OP, maybe you should make the words "This is not meant to be a Destiny thread" Capitalized and Red. |
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| Tyrellius May 08 2012 09:00. Posts 35 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 08:43 oBlade wrote:
You are just making things up when you say the entire community has a clear-cut opinion about this, or that the vast majority of the community even cares.
Enough cared which caused enough drama with Razer and Quantic to cause the split. Enough cared to stop the flow of cash into their pockets. That is more than enough in anyones mind.
I missed the MLG that Destiny showed up to wearing a KKK uniform. He's been completely amenable as a player
Dude, I like Destiny. I think he can be incredibly intelligent and really funny at times. He should use some of that intelligence to to BM in other ways than resorting to being a bigoted prick. Destiny without BM wouldnt really be Destiny, but words are not just wind.
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| iloveAthene May 08 2012 09:00. Posts 186 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 08:54 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:49 iloveAthene wrote:
Does Dr. Pepper sponsor Quantic? If not, then they have no say in what he says or does on ladder
I don't get your retort. My point is that Razer is a fine company, but it's hardly the biggest name. Destiny definitely didn't depend on them hardly at all. And if Destiny says gook on the ladder, it's not going to jeopardize the ESPORTS DR. PEPPER relationship with MLG. So I'm not sure whether you have a point about big-name companies.
I wasn't sure about your point bringing up Dr Pepper and MLG either. My only point about big name companies is that their sponsorship helps prove that esports exists in the real world. The guy I quoted said we're not in the real world.
edit: and when I was thinking about big name companies it was more like Intel sponsoring events
Last edit: 2012-05-08 09:03:24 |
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| windsupernova Mexico. May 08 2012 09:03. Posts 5272 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 08:59 gayfius173 wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:55 windsupernova wrote:
On May 08 2012 08:43 gayfius173 wrote:
On May 08 2012 08:39 hmmm... wrote:
yall need to realize that this so-called "witch-hunting" only started b/c the players were making racists comments.
and yall also need to realize that some people are (*gasp) offended by racist comments.
whether or not you are offended by it is insignificant. the fact is, there's always going to be a subset of people who are offended by it and obviously, these people aren't just going to lay low and let some progamer continue uttering racist comments. it may seem like witch hunting but it only seems that way b/c of the large number of people who are offended by such racists comments.
and quite frankly, as long as foreign progamers act so immaturely, the negative stereotype of gamers in the US esp. will never go away, which means progamers acting in such a manner are the ones hurting the growth of esports, not the consumers.
95% of the people spamming sponsors use racist/offensive language on a regular basis, guaranteed, then claim they were 'offended' while they're just trolling. The funny part is that people take this shit seriously. To the person talking about 'ambitions for esports' pipe down lol. You're a nobody who's never going to be a pro in gaming and the only thing you and people like you crying about one offensive word accomplish is hurting the scene by taking another pro/person who is actually doing something in the scene away from it. But like I said in my earlier post, you people also happen to be BRAIN DEAD so I know you can't comprehend this.
Source: Your ass? I love how you try to marginalize the people who don't agree with you. Should look for a job in EA
Did you go on dictionary.com to find the word marginalize because I know for a fact you definitely don't have the IQ to use that word without help. It's like you are trying to pretend this is the real world and not the internet? People offended? Seriously?
Lol.
Try harder next time. |
| | "Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games |  |
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| oBlade Korea (South). May 08 2012 09:09. Posts 2158 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2012 09:00 Tyrellius wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:43 oBlade wrote:
You are just making things up when you say the entire community has a clear-cut opinion about this, or that the vast majority of the community even cares.
Enough cared which caused enough drama with Razer and Quantic to cause the split. Enough cared to stop the flow of cash into their pockets. That is more than enough in anyones mind.
It's a little bit analogous to Congressmen. Most of the time they don't get mail for shit, but when they do they assume it's what their constituents actually think. In reality, it's just that the people who are really fired up are the only ones writing, and they all have the same opinion. Furthermore, in the Destiny thread, people were posting shortcuts to Razer's PR to make it really easy for someone to jump on the bandwagon and complain. I could probably scrounge a big enough group of angry people to lose anyone in the world their job with enough emails to their managers. That wouldn't per se mean I did anything moral.
Show nested quote +
I missed the MLG that Destiny showed up to wearing a KKK uniform. He's been completely amenable as a player
Dude, I like Destiny. I think he can be incredibly intelligent and really funny at times. He should use some of that intelligence to to BM in other ways than resorting to being a bigoted prick. Destiny without BM wouldnt really be Destiny, but words are not just wind.
Yes, that's one opinion on the subject. I don't think it's one worth writing to sponsors for.Last edit: 2012-05-08 09:09:33 |
| | "I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne |  |
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| HorsemasterK United States. May 08 2012 09:12. Posts 231 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 08:46 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:11 iloveAthene wrote:
On May 08 2012 07:32 QuanticCinergy wrote:
OK, you guys win!
Take all our players, take all our funding, we'll just go away and do something else, alright?
Are we happy now?
Good.
Yeah this really doesn't make sense. So the consumers took Destiny from you? When you say things like that it makes it seem as though you wouldn't have punished him at all. That's the exact reason people contacted sponsors in the first place.
No, no, no, no.... Good lord, you guys are so hung up on Destiny, you can't see the larger issue I entered this thread discussing in the first place. I'm not really sure my continued contribution here is needed, you all seem to have this debate in good hands. The moment you go to sponsors directly, you not only place the ENTIRE TEAM at risk, but you pretty much eliminate the jurisdiction and judgement of the team and it's management, and now you have the sponsor staff dealing with an issue that is overwhelming them, putting their career at risk as well, and pretty much, team management just gets to sit on the sideline and try to decipher if we are going to lose a player, funding we need for the entire team, our brand, our reputation (with player, fans, other teams, etc) Even just in this thread alone, people think I'm defending Steven, which I haven't, that I should have made announcements when the message and the entire dialog, hell even the outcome, wasn't really even manageable by the team at that moment anyhow, and of course, we get what we deserve for even picking up this player in the first place. I should listen to my PR folks and stay off the forums, lol. You guys just do whatever you feel is best, because from all the productive dialong we have exchanged here today, you are going to do what you want anyhow, regardless of if a single player can bring an entire team down, if it becomes possible to orchestrate attacks on another teams key players, or if sponsors simply withdraw from the space entirely because of the actions of a few who become so magnified as to poorly represent the many. We are a staff of people who do this because we love the fans, the players, and want to see eSports grow. You should pause to consider that perhaps the top teams are run by people who both know what something about how to manage these sorts of events as well as care a great deal about the views of our fans, the image of our partners, and the well being of the players too. I participated in this thread to share that perspective with you, not because I feel a need to justify my management decisions or provide explanation as to why things are the way they are or are not, or simply suggest that any player out there is so far a lost cause, that even engaging them with the right and proper motivations isn't worth the risk. I posted here so that you might understand how carefully we try to manage things like this, how we are not simply passively checked out on a beach somewhere hoping the shit goes away, but that we take these outcomes very seriously, and while everything may not always end in happiness and roses for everyone, if you insist on venting to sponsors you are engaging in one activity above any cause of justification you may have, and that is the tearing down of the trust bonds and relationship equity that people like myself invest months, sometimes years, developing.
Really do appreciate the clarification. |
| | "Thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." - Revelations 18:23 |  |
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 lorkac United States. May 08 2012 09:15. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
Players words should not be policed.
People's letters should not be policed.
There was not a horde of fanmail sent to destiny asking him to stop talking--it was mail sent to a sponsor about disliking a product. Destiny fanboys should stop being upset that letters were not sent to destiny. It wouldnt have mattered if he did or did not say racist things--people were unhappy with the product and so they sent in their complaints. No different from a defective mouse or a dead monitor pixel.
Customers are allowed to have opinions much like destiny is allowed to be racist. Destiny fanboys takes things so personal, they should learn not to be so easily insulted on the Internet. |
| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |  |
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| Bulldog654 United States. May 08 2012 09:16. Posts 78 | Profile # |
Well, hopefully sponsors will wise up and realize the way this community acts and just stop giving a shit about these emails. They need to realize that the people that wrote those emails lack enough maturity to have reached a point in their lives to have any purchasing power.
In the future, those of us that are clear thinking and don't generally feel the need to attack people's livelihood to force them to adhere to our own personal beliefs need to organize a counter e-mail campaign to put a stop to this nonsense. When the children whine and get their way it just shows them that whining will get them their way in the future so they have no incentive to stop.
Since these people are essentially bullys, we can rest assured that if someone stands up to them they'll back down. |
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| Tyrellius May 08 2012 09:18. Posts 35 | Profile # |
oBlade:
Do you think what has happened will cause other streaming players to moderate their tone and behaviour in public or during steaming?
If the answer is yes then the whole "witchhunt" was a success. Hopefully it will just stick around in peoples minds unlike Orbs.
I'm in no way against BM, some of it is highly entertaining, I just have a serious problem with bigotry in any form - as most people should. |
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| askTeivospy May 08 2012 09:20. Posts 1495 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2012 09:15 lorkac wrote:
Players words should not be policed.
People's letters should not be policed.
There was not a horde of fanmail sent to destiny asking him to stop talking--it was mail sent to a sponsor about disliking a product. Destiny fanboys should stop being upset that letters were not sent to destiny. It wouldnt have mattered if he did or did not say racist things--people were unhappy with the product and so they sent in their complaints. No different from a defective mouse or a dead monitor pixel.
Customers are allowed to have opinions much like destiny is allowed to be racist. Destiny fanboys takes things so personal, they should learn not to be so easily insulted on the Internet.
people on both sides of the issue are easily insulted FYI |
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| Reithan United States. May 08 2012 09:24. Posts 351 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2012 09:12 HorsemasterK wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:46 QuanticCinergy wrote:
On May 08 2012 08:11 iloveAthene wrote:
On May 08 2012 07:32 QuanticCinergy wrote:
OK, you guys win!
Take all our players, take all our funding, we'll just go away and do something else, alright?
Are we happy now?
Good.
Yeah this really doesn't make sense. So the consumers took Destiny from you? When you say things like that it makes it seem as though you wouldn't have punished him at all. That's the exact reason people contacted sponsors in the first place.
No, no, no, no.... Good lord, you guys are so hung up on Destiny, you can't see the larger issue I entered this thread discussing in the first place. I'm not really sure my continued contribution here is needed, you all seem to have this debate in good hands. The moment you go to sponsors directly, you not only place the ENTIRE TEAM at risk, but you pretty much eliminate the jurisdiction and judgement of the team and it's management, and now you have the sponsor staff dealing with an issue that is overwhelming them, putting their career at risk as well, and pretty much, team management just gets to sit on the sideline and try to decipher if we are going to lose a player, funding we need for the entire team, our brand, our reputation (with player, fans, other teams, etc) Even just in this thread alone, people think I'm defending Steven, which I haven't, that I should have made announcements when the message and the entire dialog, hell even the outcome, wasn't really even manageable by the team at that moment anyhow, and of course, we get what we deserve for even picking up this player in the first place. I should listen to my PR folks and stay off the forums, lol. You guys just do whatever you feel is best, because from all the productive dialong we have exchanged here today, you are going to do what you want anyhow, regardless of if a single player can bring an entire team down, if it becomes possible to orchestrate attacks on another teams key players, or if sponsors simply withdraw from the space entirely because of the actions of a few who become so magnified as to poorly represent the many. We are a staff of people who do this because we love the fans, the players, and want to see eSports grow. You should pause to consider that perhaps the top teams are run by people who both know what something about how to manage these sorts of events as well as care a great deal about the views of our fans, the image of our partners, and the well being of the players too. I participated in this thread to share that perspective with you, not because I feel a need to justify my management decisions or provide explanation as to why things are the way they are or are not, or simply suggest that any player out there is so far a lost cause, that even engaging them with the right and proper motivations isn't worth the risk. I posted here so that you might understand how carefully we try to manage things like this, how we are not simply passively checked out on a beach somewhere hoping the shit goes away, but that we take these outcomes very seriously, and while everything may not always end in happiness and roses for everyone, if you insist on venting to sponsors you are engaging in one activity above any cause of justification you may have, and that is the tearing down of the trust bonds and relationship equity that people like myself invest months, sometimes years, developing.
Really do appreciate the clarification.
While I respect QuanticCinergy coming on here and TRYING to explain things. I'm going to put this as bluntly as I can:
Over-reactive, irrational trolls that blow up with the slightly provocation and spam the crap out of anyone/thing that will listen...on my interwebs??
IT'S MORE LIKELY THAN YOU THINK.
Signing players that had bad histories with faux pas? Dangerous.
Not being able to keep those same players in check once you have them? Understandable.
Having the army of internet baddasses fully mobilize as soon as they smell any chance to cause a commotion? Any single DROPLET of blood in the water? Predictable.
Having sponsors that don't understand the difference between internet outrage and REAL outrage? Depressing.
Expecting to be able to change anything about the trollish flashmob mentality of the internet in general, or TeamLiquid community in specific with a thoughtful and well-written post? Laughable.
If you stay in this business, this will happen again. With full and unrelenting certainty. Either teams and sponsors understand that and gird themselves against it, either by avoiding controversial players, or by understanding that internet ragestorms happen, and if you just weather them for a little while, seldom does anything come of them, or by getting the f**k out of eSports.
I'd prefer if the 3rd option there isn't exercised, but I'd understand if it was.
This post isn't an ultimatum, advice, or commentary: merely a prediction. |
| | http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan |  |
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| windsupernova Mexico. May 08 2012 09:24. Posts 5272 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 09:16 Bulldog654 wrote:
Well, hopefully sponsors will wise up and realize the way this community acts and just stop giving a shit about these emails. They need to realize that the people that wrote those emails lack enough maturity to have reached a point in their lives to have any purchasing power.
In the future, those of us that are clear thinking and don't generally feel the need to attack people's livelihood to force them to adhere to our own personal beliefs need to organize a counter e-mail campaign to put a stop to this nonsense. When the children whine and get their way it just shows them that whining will get them their way in the future so they have no incentive to stop.
Since these people are essentially bullys, we can rest assured that if someone stands up to them they'll back down.
Yeah companies not caring about what their customers think is an awesome thing |
| | "Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games | |
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| Bulldog654 United States. May 08 2012 09:26. Posts 78 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 09:24 windsupernova wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 09:16 Bulldog654 wrote:
Well, hopefully sponsors will wise up and realize the way this community acts and just stop giving a shit about these emails. They need to realize that the people that wrote those emails lack enough maturity to have reached a point in their lives to have any purchasing power.
In the future, those of us that are clear thinking and don't generally feel the need to attack people's livelihood to force them to adhere to our own personal beliefs need to organize a counter e-mail campaign to put a stop to this nonsense. When the children whine and get their way it just shows them that whining will get them their way in the future so they have no incentive to stop.
Since these people are essentially bullys, we can rest assured that if someone stands up to them they'll back down.
Yeah companies not caring about what their customers think is an awesome thing
Lol, reading comprehension is awesome! I clearly said that these "customers" as you call them, lack the maturity to have reached a point in their lives to have purchasing power. Companies care about customers that can buy their products.
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| oBlade Korea (South). May 08 2012 09:27. Posts 2158 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2012 09:18 Tyrellius wrote:
oBlade:
Do you think what has happened will cause other streaming players to moderate their tone and behaviour in public or during steaming?
If the answer is yes then the whole "witchhunt" was a success. Hopefully it will just stick around in peoples minds unlike Orbs.
I'm in no way against BM, some of it is highly entertaining, I just have a serious problem with bigotry in any form - as most people should.
Why is... someone else's language your business, even if they actually bigots, which the people in question aren't? This doesn't stop Joe Battlenet user from possibly being an actual bigot. This doesn't stop some random guy who is streaming and has no sponsors from using the same language. I don't think this even changes Destiny's behavior. The email campaign was clearly a great success. All emailing Razer did was take a sponsor away from someone who will continue to be true to himself. We managed to narrowly avoid causing the entire team to lose a sponsor. That would have really sent Destiny a message, though, right? Maybe next time?
There are many communities on the internet I specifically go to use any words I feel like, and be among likeminded people. I understand streams are such a place. I don't know why anyone would volunteer for this crusade of taking language off the internet, particularly when nobody asked for volunteers.
So the short answer to your questions is no, and even if the answer were yes, it would be a bad thing.
On May 08 2012 09:24 Reithan wrote:
If you stay in this business, this will happen again. With full and unrelenting certainty. Either teams and sponsors understand that and gird themselves against it, either by avoiding controversial players, or by understanding that internet ragestorms happen, and if you just weather them for a little while, seldom does anything come of them, or by getting the f**k out of eSports.
I think this is pretty wise. It doesn't seem obvious to me how to weather it besides whitewashing with "We are looking into this" and then giving no further updates.
On May 08 2012 09:29 aintz wrote:
do people in real sport act racist or demeaning to others without getting punished? no. so why should we make an exception for esports?
This was not on the main stage of MLG, as Destiny has repeatedly stated, and should be obvious, how he acts on the ladder isn't the way he acts at events. An analogy might be would you kick someone out of the NBA because he flipped the chess table over in his opponent's face?Last edit: 2012-05-08 09:32:09 |
| | "I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne | |
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 aintz Canada. May 08 2012 09:29. Posts 2909 | Profile # |
| do people in real sport act racist or demeaning to others without getting punished? no. so why should we make an exception for esports? |
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| acie United States. May 08 2012 09:31. Posts 184 | Profile Blog # |
| they probably do in practice when the general public isn't watching |
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| lorkac United States. May 08 2012 09:32. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2012 09:20 askTeivospy wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 09:15 lorkac wrote:
Players words should not be policed.
People's letters should not be policed.
There was not a horde of fanmail sent to destiny asking him to stop talking--it was mail sent to a sponsor about disliking a product. Destiny fanboys should stop being upset that letters were not sent to destiny. It wouldnt have mattered if he did or did not say racist things--people were unhappy with the product and so they sent in their complaints. No different from a defective mouse or a dead monitor pixel.
Customers are allowed to have opinions much like destiny is allowed to be racist. Destiny fanboys takes things so personal, they should learn not to be so easily insulted on the Internet.
people on both sides of the issue are easily insulted FYI
Really now?
One side saw someone who was being bigoted and asked for him to be removed--for bigotry.
The other side saw that actions on the internet had repercussions and whined on TL.
Hmm.... who was more mature? |
| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography | |
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| lorkac United States. May 08 2012 09:34. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2012 09:27 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 09:18 Tyrellius wrote:
oBlade:
Do you think what has happened will cause other streaming players to moderate their tone and behaviour in public or during steaming?
If the answer is yes then the whole "witchhunt" was a success. Hopefully it will just stick around in peoples minds unlike Orbs.
I'm in no way against BM, some of it is highly entertaining, I just have a serious problem with bigotry in any form - as most people should.
Why is... someone else's language your business, even if they actually bigots, which the people in question aren't? This doesn't stop Joe Battlenet user from possibly being an actual bigot. This doesn't stop some random guy who is streaming and has no sponsors from using the same language. I don't think this even changes Destiny's behavior. The email campaign was clearly a great success. All emailing Razer did was take a sponsor away from someone who will continue to be true to himself. We managed to narrowly avoid causing the entire team to lose a sponsor. That would have really sent Destiny a message, though, right? Maybe next time? There are many communities on the internet I specifically go to use any words I feel like, and be among likeminded people. I understand streams are such a place. I don't know why anyone would volunteer for this crusade of taking language off the internet, particularly when nobody asked for volunteers. So the short answer to your questions is no, and even if the answer were yes, it would be a bad thing.
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 09:24 Reithan wrote:
If you stay in this business, this will happen again. With full and unrelenting certainty. Either teams and sponsors understand that and gird themselves against it, either by avoiding controversial players, or by understanding that internet ragestorms happen, and if you just weather them for a little while, seldom does anything come of them, or by getting the f**k out of eSports.
I think this is pretty wise. It doesn't seem obvious to me how to weather it besides whitewashing with "We are looking into this" and then giving no further updates.
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 09:29 aintz wrote:
do people in real sport act racist or demeaning to others without getting punished? no. so why should we make an exception for esports?
This was not on the main stage of MLG, as Destiny has repeatedly stated, and should be obvious, how he acts on the ladder isn't the way he acts at events. An analogy might be would you kick someone out of the NBA because he flipped the chess table over in his opponent's face?
Why is it your business that people write letters to companies about products those companies are accountable for? People are allowed to write whatever letter they damn please--they should not be policed. |
| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography | |
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| oBlade Korea (South). May 08 2012 09:35. Posts 2158 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2012 09:32 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 09:20 askTeivospy wrote:
On May 08 2012 09:15 lorkac wrote:
Players words should not be policed.
People's letters should not be policed.
There was not a horde of fanmail sent to destiny asking him to stop talking--it was mail sent to a sponsor about disliking a product. Destiny fanboys should stop being upset that letters were not sent to destiny. It wouldnt have mattered if he did or did not say racist things--people were unhappy with the product and so they sent in their complaints. No different from a defective mouse or a dead monitor pixel.
Customers are allowed to have opinions much like destiny is allowed to be racist. Destiny fanboys takes things so personal, they should learn not to be so easily insulted on the Internet.
people on both sides of the issue are easily insulted FYI
One side saw someone who was being bigoted and asked for him to be removed--for bigotry.
Calling BM bigotry belittles actual injustice in the world. I won't go into how loaded the rest of your post is, as many people have already posted about why hair-trigger emailing a team's sponsors just because some player has a thread on the top of Reddit or TL is not the way to approach a situation rationally. |
| | "I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne | |
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| Bulldog654 United States. May 08 2012 09:36. Posts 78 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 09:32 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 09:20 askTeivospy wrote:
On May 08 2012 09:15 lorkac wrote:
Players words should not be policed.
People's letters should not be policed.
There was not a horde of fanmail sent to destiny asking him to stop talking--it was mail sent to a sponsor about disliking a product. Destiny fanboys should stop being upset that letters were not sent to destiny. It wouldnt have mattered if he did or did not say racist things--people were unhappy with the product and so they sent in their complaints. No different from a defective mouse or a dead monitor pixel.
Customers are allowed to have opinions much like destiny is allowed to be racist. Destiny fanboys takes things so personal, they should learn not to be so easily insulted on the Internet.
people on both sides of the issue are easily insulted FYI
Really now? One side saw someone who was being bigoted and asked for him to be removed--for bigotry. The other side saw that actions on the internet had repercussions and whined on TL. Hmm.... who was more mature?
No, one side saw someone say a mean word that didn't hurt anyone (you know, because its a word typed on a screen,) and attacked that persons ability to make money, heedless of the possible collateral damage.
The other side saw bigots (look up the word) attempting to force someone to adhere to their own personal beliefs and protested this on TL
I think it should be pretty clear who was more mature. |
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