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| Acritter May 08 2012 11:57. Posts 1560 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 11:51 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
Supporters and haters could have sent mail. Supporters didn't despite knowing haters were sending mail. Conclusion--supporters don't actually care and are just whining on TL to cause drama. Rebuttal?
Rebuttal: it is nigh-impossible to undo the effects of a successful smear campaign. Look at American politics for details. |
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| revel8 United Kingdom. May 08 2012 12:00. Posts 2703 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
Show nested quote + So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
Show nested quote +
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
Show nested quote + What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
Show nested quote +If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
Must suck for all those racists who can no longer be themselves without being controlled by other people. A society where racism is tolerated is always going to be one that is fair and people are never going to be made to sit on the back of a bus or only apply to work in certain jobs because of their skin colour. History has taught us that of course.
Meanwhile in the real world sponsors run away from racism and so racist behaviour drives them away. The kkk demographic is not a big enough commercial sector these days. You sound a bit frustrated by this. Nostalgia can make the old ways idyllic to some, I guess.
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| Chocobo United States. May 08 2012 12:01. Posts 1093 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 11:20 Fubi wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
The difference is, the TV show Glee promoting acceptance of gay people isn't doing anything wrong by our social standard; there is nothing wrong with promoting acceptance of homosexual. Therefore, the Christian group complaining about it are in the wrong, because they are complaining about something that there is nothing wrong with it from a logical or social standpoint.
So the religious group would be in the right, if the same situation took place in the year 1950? Or in present-day Afghanistan?
On the other hand, there IS something wrong with racial slurs. Therefore, people complaining about racial slurs are complaining about something that is wrong.
Or are you suggesting that there is ok for someone to keep a racist mindset? And that people that are trying to eliminate racism overall by in your words "demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else" is wrong?
I agree that racism is wrong and that racial slurs are not a good thing. I understand that many people are offended by them. However, I do not agree that the the correct course of action when encountering a racial slur is to form an angry mob and demand the person who used it be fired from their job.
Also, context is important. Destiny is not a racist... he has the anger management skills of a 4 year old who throws temper tantrums, and when offended he will lash out with the most hurtful words he can come up with. He actually can censor himself, but chose not to because some of his audience finds the tantrums entertaining... sort of like watching Cartman from South Park.
But people were reacting to his language as if he was a true southern redneck expressing an heartfelt opinion that black people are inferior, and that just wasn't the case.
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| LimeNade United States. May 08 2012 12:02. Posts 1515 | Profile Blog # |
| huh? if anything witch hunting has brought way more interaction among the community and attention to the scene lol. Good or bad publicity is still publicity. Has destiny or quantic been talked about this much this often lately before this? O_O if anything as long as no one is being burnt at the stake then let the witch hunting continue. Its just your prerogative whether you want to join in or not |
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| Chocobo United States. May 08 2012 12:03. Posts 1093 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 11:28 HansK wrote:I think the solution is rather simple that we need teams and leagues to set out very clear-cut standards for their players and when players violate the standards set forth by the team and it's sponsors there needs to be a punishment. Every other professional league and teams have something like this set forward, and this is the reason you don't see NBA players on professional teams acting how ever they want when they want. Look at some of the players banned/suspended by the NBA and their reasoning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_players_banned_or_suspended_by_the_NBAu There has been plenty of other team-imposed punishments from violating the teams standards, including missing a lot of practice, racism, etc. Basically all pro teams and leagues need to have a set of standards and punish for not following those standards. It might even be helpful for leagues to cooperate with each other and when a player is banned he is banned from several leagues/tournaments.
This would be an excellent idea. Consistent, fixed, agreed-upon rules... not angry mobs targetting whoever they happen to dislike. |
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| rfoster United States. May 08 2012 12:03. Posts 984 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 11:56 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 11:49 Noobity wrote:
On May 08 2012 11:29 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 11:11 oBlade wrote:
On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It's not your place to dictate to me what my job is either thank you very much. You are an apologist for racist insults. Well done, you must be proud. It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. There are people in this thread who are pretending that Destiny calling someone a Gook was not an incidence of using a racist slur. Destiny's behaviour was brought to the attention of his sponsors. They looked at his behaviour and judged it inappropriate. Go and cry to them about how you support racist behaviour and think it should continue. Don't bleat to me because the real commercial world in the 21st Century does not tolerate racial abuse. My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours. Thankfully the kkk demographic is now on the fringes of society. If you find that frustrating then too bad.
This is full of strawmen and just misunderstandings. The reaction of sponsors is basically "we don't want emails sent to us and causing a shitstorm" so Destiny left. The people like me who are trying to spread awareness not by ignoring a problem and blanket blacklisting certain words are not necessarily the people who argue it's childish to write to sponsors before writing to the team and to email the sponsors just because it's the bandwagon thing that the internet is doing. I think you're trying desperately too hard to appear not to be a racist, which is one symptom of P.C. that I thought we were over by now.
No the reaction of the sponsors was concern about racial slurs by someone associated with them. No company can afford the negative PR of being associated with racism. Go write to the sponsors and tell them you support racist behaviour and see how far that gets you. How about you condemn people making racist comments instead of jumping through hoops criticising those who oppose it? The sponsors agree with my stance on racist comments and not yours. Deal with it. Welcome to the 21 st century where people of all races have to use the same entrances to buildings. You may find this an unwelcome development but you'll survive.
Was that really their stance though? I mean, without a press release stating "Oh hey, we don't like people saying gook, we needed destiny gone!" I kinda get the feeling a lot of the opinions on just what went down and why are a little off. I mean in fairness I only read like 27 of the pages of this thread, I could have missed something. Did razer come in here and say they don't like players on teams they sponser using slurs? I don't honestly think Razer would even threaten to create an opinion and stance on this kind of thing at all. I think they may not like the usage of the words, but until it's brought to their attention they're happy to live and let live. They're sent a lot of mail talking about potential customers no longer being customers because of one player on one team and they're going to try and have their underlings fix it. They don't care why they're losing people, they just want it to stop. I guarantee you, if you have 1000 people write to Razer saying you'll no longer be their customer because you don't like their color scheme someone's shit is going to hit the fan. It's not a matter of morality, it's a matter of return on investment. "Oh hey, the customers hate green! Design team! We need something new! Chop-chop!" We need to stop assuming that because we feel something is right, it is the universal correct stance. Until proven otherwise, business is business, and if you don't understand business don't assume you know why something happened.
That's awesome man! Let's look at what happened. People who disliked Destiny's racism sent mail to the sponsors that they didn't like Destiny for being a bigot. A short time later Destiny is let go from Quantic. Now, I know the correlation does not equate to causation, so let's go further. Destiny makes a non-apology specifically related to the mail sent to Razer. Quantic whines that fans shouldn't send mail to Razer. Conclusion? Mail was sent in that either caused razer to get upset or cause quantic to get worried that Razer would be upset. Either Razer hates bigots, or Quantic hates bigots. Conclusion? Destiny supporters should be upset at Razer and Quantic for hating Bigots instead of whining about it on TL. Just send mail folks, do the direct thing and talk to the person in charge, not fanboys on a forum website.
How the hell do you draw/ think that those are the only two conclusions. Razer does not care about bigots or racism they are a big company all they care about their profit margin. Once the sponsors are getting negetive feedback on something it really outweighs the posotive e-mails. If you asked a higher up in the community member they would tell you that negative emails have a higher weight with sponsors. Quite simply 1 good email /=/ 1 bad email
Destiny is not a racist, he is just someone using vulgar language Quantic had no reason morally to let him go, but due to the fear of losing sponsors they had to. |
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| Chocobo United States. May 08 2012 12:08. Posts 1093 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 11:47 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 11:34 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 10:49 DarkInfinity wrote:
On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
This is my last comment on this post. There are some things that are certainly wrong. Murder is wrong. If there was a known murderer on an SCII team, and they lived in a place where it was legal, I hope we all would demand that he is removed from that team. I'm not saying that many other things have an absolute right/wrong to them, but we get to choose the people who represent this community, and we can only do that based on our own morals, which are all based on the absolute truth of equality by way of birth.
I swear, sometimes it feels I'm arguing politics with Fox News Republicans who are intentionally trying to misinterpret words or twist situations in order to make it appear to support their viewpoint. Comparing offensive language to murder is ridiculous. 1) For offensive language, you can choose how to feel about it, and you can also choose to avoid the person using it. Murder does not work that way. 2) Murder is universally considered to be an extreme offense that must be answered with a heavy punishment. Should a murderer go free, an angry mob demanding punishment is justified. Acting like a dick in an poor attempt to be entertaining during an internet show is a relatively small offense, and to many people is not even an offense at all. An angry mob in this situation is uncalled for. Finally, you say "we get to choose the people who represent this community". Who exactly is getting to choose, here? Only the vocal complaining minority got to have any input in these situations, and they got to choose to try to have someone removed. The many thousands of people who are entertained by and support players like Destiny didn't get to have any input. We should let the most skilled and most entertaining people rise to the the top, being "chosen" by their popularity and support, instead of creating a system to tear down those players who don't fit in with the standards of vocal minorities. Or do you think it would be OK for a vocal religious group of players to mass-complain to sponsors and have a player like Scarlett fired from her team for not fitting in with what they see as acceptable?
If only Razer was getting a tidal wave of customer praise for how awesome Destiny's use of gook was in order to drown out the complaints. Oh wait--only people against Destiny are allowed to send emails to sponsors correct? Razer rips up and doesn't listen to any supportive emails right?
I actually did email Razer and Quantic expressing my support of the idea that people should be able to express themselves freely, especially when it's in the name of entertaining on an internet show, without fear of losing their jobs... and that I stand against the idea of people on the internet using complaints to control the actions of others.
Unfortunately, negative publicity speaks is much louder and scarier than messages of support, and as a business they cannot afford to be seen in a negative light. So they did what they had to do.
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| revel8 United Kingdom. May 08 2012 12:08. Posts 2703 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 12:01 Chocobo wrote:
I agree that racism is wrong and that racial slurs are not a good thing. I understand that many people are offended by them
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Stop the press. Chocobo says racism is wrong! Hallelujah! Now maybe he will acknowledge that those who agree with him that racism is wrong are not bigots for thinking that people should be treating with equal respect no matter their race.
Maybe he will even stick his neck out and criticise those who make racial slurs.
User was warned for this postLast edit: 2012-05-08 12:09:00 |
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| Chocobo United States. May 08 2012 12:10. Posts 1093 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 11:56 lorkac wrote:
Destiny supporters should be upset at Razer and Quantic for hating Bigots instead of whining about it on TL.
Just send mail folks, do the direct thing and talk to the person in charge, not fanboys on a forum website.
Absolutely no one here has any problem with Razer or Quantic, I fully support both of them. |
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| Acritter May 08 2012 12:14. Posts 1560 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 12:08 revel8 wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 12:01 Chocobo wrote:
I agree that racism is wrong and that racial slurs are not a good thing. I understand that many people are offended by them
. Stop the press. Chocobo says racism is wrong! Hallelujah! Now maybe he will acknowledge that those who agree with him that racism is wrong are not bigots for thinking that people should be treating with equal respect no matter their race. Maybe he will even stick his neck out and criticise those who make racial slurs.
But should someone have their career destroyed over racial slurs? That's what you have to prove, not that racial slurs are undesirable. Speeding is undesirable. Jaywalking is undesirable. Spitting your gum out onto the sidewalk is undesirable. Do people deserve to have their careers ruined for these? Hell no! The issue here is that the response from the mob is completely disproportionate and punishes individuals FAR more than they deserve to be punished. They deserve a slap on the wrist, a public apology, shit like that. They don't deserve to be removed from the scene. |
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| oBlade Korea (South). May 08 2012 12:20. Posts 2157 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2012 11:50 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 11:32 oBlade wrote:
On May 08 2012 11:29 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 11:11 oBlade wrote:
On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It's not your place to dictate to me what my job is either thank you very much. You are an apologist for racist insults. Well done, you must be proud. It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. There are people in this thread who are pretending that Destiny calling someone a Gook was not an incidence of using a racist slur. Destiny's behaviour was brought to the attention of his sponsors. They looked at his behaviour and judged it inappropriate. Go and cry to them about how you support racist behaviour and think it should continue. Don't bleat to me because the real commercial world in the 21st Century does not tolerate racial abuse. My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours. Thankfully the kkk demographic is now on the fringes of society. If you find that frustrating then too bad.
This is full of strawmen and just misunderstandings. The reaction of sponsors is basically "we don't want emails sent to us and causing a shitstorm" so Destiny left. The people like me who are trying to spread awareness not by ignoring a problem and blanket blacklisting certain words are not necessarily the people who argue it's childish to write to sponsors before writing to the team and to email the sponsors just because it's the bandwagon thing that the internet is doing. I think you're trying desperately too hard to appear not to be a racist, which is one symptom of P.C. that I thought we were over by now.
No the reaction of the sponsors was concern about racial slurs by someone associated with them. Go write to the sponsors and tell them you support racist behaviour and see how far that gets you. How about you condemn people making racist comments instead of jumping through hoops criticising those who oppose it? The sponsors agree with my stance on racist comments and not yours. Deal with it. Welcome to the 21 st century where people of all races have to use the same entrances to buildings. You may find this an unwelcome development but you'll survive.
I don't support racist behavior, nor am I racist. Your mob mentality is stopping you from seeing that there are possible solutions to this situation besides 1) Do nothing and 2) Cut Destiny/the entire Quantic team. Those were the only options left when this was made Razer's problem. There are solutions that Quantic management could have at least explored if they had been contacted before everyone spammed Razer and made it their problem.
Yeah man, it's not like Destiny knew about the whole ordeal--otherwise he would have been able to properly explain to Quantic that him calling people Gook was actually good for Quantic and for Razer. He's smart--I'm sure he can convince them that it benefits everyone if he kept using the word Gook.
It... doesn't have to do with Quantic because Razer was contacted too fast. You are specifically supporting that everyone email Razer, why did you suddenly forget that's exactly what happened? |
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| Chocobo United States. May 08 2012 12:22. Posts 1093 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case.
You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism.
Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them?
I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material unpleasant should simply stop watching it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply avoiding it.
Last edit: 2012-05-08 12:24:52 |
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| TOloseGT United States. May 08 2012 12:23. Posts 1135 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2012 12:14 Acritter wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 12:08 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 12:01 Chocobo wrote:
I agree that racism is wrong and that racial slurs are not a good thing. I understand that many people are offended by them
. Stop the press. Chocobo says racism is wrong! Hallelujah! Now maybe he will acknowledge that those who agree with him that racism is wrong are not bigots for thinking that people should be treating with equal respect no matter their race. Maybe he will even stick his neck out and criticise those who make racial slurs.
But should someone have their career destroyed over racial slurs? That's what you have to prove, not that racial slurs are undesirable. Speeding is undesirable. Jaywalking is undesirable. Spitting your gum out onto the sidewalk is undesirable. Do people deserve to have their careers ruined for these? Hell no! The issue here is that the response from the mob is completely disproportionate and punishes individuals FAR more than they deserve to be punished. They deserve a slap on the wrist, a public apology, shit like that. They don't deserve to be removed from the scene.
We don't really have a an association that deals with players other than the individual teams, and I think if a player signed up with a team, then that team has every right to dismiss that player for what they perceive to be un-sportsmanlike conduct. Actions from the "mob" aside, the decision ultimately falls on team management. Plenty of organizations go against the grain of public opinion and dismiss their reactionary calls, it just didn't happen in this instance.
As for what people deserve, that's too subjective to make any sort of point. |
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| Supamang United States. May 08 2012 12:29. Posts 2084 | Profile # |
As much as I hate the idea of that WardenSC guy bitching and moaning to an audience rather than discussing this with Destiny man-to-man, I think people arguing for the use of those slurs are being disingenuous.
You can use a bunch of pseudo logic to say things like "Language is malleable and meanings aren't set in stone" or "People can use slurs endearingly," but the fact of the matter is those slurs were created and were used to be hurtful towards a particular race. Yes oBlade, people could possibly use the word "Gook" endearingly...when's the last time you've heard someone use it that way? Personally, the only time Ive heard people use it, it was meant as an insult. I never hear Asians use it like black people use the word "nigga".
Wait a sec, this is all besides the point anyway...The point is, Destiny used a racial slur to insult his opponent. Personally, I'd say who gives a fuck if it was targeted at me. I get raged at all the time, this would be no different. But if we're arguing about whether or not Destiny's use of the word was racist, then answer me this. Why didn't he use another word? Warden types in Korean, why didn't Destiny call him a "nigger" or a "spic" or a "wetback" or whatever? Warden made himself out to be Asian so Destiny targeted his ethnicity and used it as an insult. If he just wanted to call the guy a name, why doesn't he just say "asshole" or "motherfucker" or something? How is using a word to insult a guy just because he is a certain race NOT racist?
I've watched Destiny's stream enough to be relatively certain that he isn't super racist. The problem I have is that there's gonna be some dumb ass bigots who do watch his stream and use it as justification to express their own hateful views. I see it all the time on his chat, people talking about small Asian dicks and whatnot just because Destiny mentioned it earlier. Being a relatively influential guy, he should have more responsibility when it comes to what he says because even if he himself doesn't mean any harm by what he says, he could be giving more confidence to others who actually do have malice in their words and beliefs. |
| | "I wish nothing but TheBestfOu" - Adele |
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| sc14s United States. May 08 2012 12:30. Posts 3108 | Profile # |
"Simon Skinner: You see, much as I enjoyed your wild theories Sergeant, the truth is far less complex. Blower's fate was simply the result of his being... an appalling actor.
NWA Members: [echoing in agreement] Appalling.
Nicholas Angel: You murdered him for that?
Simon Skinner: He murdered Bill Shakespeare.
Nicholas Angel: What? Oh.
Annette Roper: Martin Blower was less concerned with the reputation of the village than he was with his sordid affair with Eve Draper!
Nicholas Angel: So Eve deserved to die too?
Dr. Robin Hatcher: Well, she did have a very annoying laugh.
NWA Members: [echoing in agreement] Annoying.
Nicholas Angel: George Merchant?
Simon Skinner: He had in awful house.
NWA Members: [echoing in agreement] Awful. "
reminds me of this from the hot fuzz xD
for the greater good! asdfgLast edit: 2012-05-08 12:30:54 |
| | Jaedong, Drg, Parting, Moon <3 |  |
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| hasuterrans United States. May 08 2012 12:36. Posts 600 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it.
This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. |
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| Velocirapture United States. May 08 2012 12:37. Posts 614 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 12:14 Acritter wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 12:08 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 12:01 Chocobo wrote:
I agree that racism is wrong and that racial slurs are not a good thing. I understand that many people are offended by them
. Stop the press. Chocobo says racism is wrong! Hallelujah! Now maybe he will acknowledge that those who agree with him that racism is wrong are not bigots for thinking that people should be treating with equal respect no matter their race. Maybe he will even stick his neck out and criticise those who make racial slurs.
But should someone have their career destroyed over racial slurs? That's what you have to prove, not that racial slurs are undesirable. Speeding is undesirable. Jaywalking is undesirable. Spitting your gum out onto the sidewalk is undesirable. Do people deserve to have their careers ruined for these? Hell no! The issue here is that the response from the mob is completely disproportionate and punishes individuals FAR more than they deserve to be punished. They deserve a slap on the wrist, a public apology, shit like that. They don't deserve to be removed from the scene.
Opinions vary on this based on how we each see the role of Destiny in the scene. Basically every employer in America holds their employees to a standard of decorum well above the gaming community. If I, as a professional worker, was heard by my boss saying racial slurs at work and in front of customers then I would expect not only to lose my job but to be blacklisted in the community. This is accepted because while I am working, I am a representative of my company and its interests.
E-sports is in the middle of a transition towards being a real business. Now that we are catching a glimpse of what this means some people in the community are doubting if it is what they really want.
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| FakeDeath Malaysia. May 08 2012 12:41. Posts 3900 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 12:14 Acritter wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 12:08 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 12:01 Chocobo wrote:
I agree that racism is wrong and that racial slurs are not a good thing. I understand that many people are offended by them
. Stop the press. Chocobo says racism is wrong! Hallelujah! Now maybe he will acknowledge that those who agree with him that racism is wrong are not bigots for thinking that people should be treating with equal respect no matter their race. Maybe he will even stick his neck out and criticise those who make racial slurs.
But should someone have their career destroyed over racial slurs? That's what you have to prove, not that racial slurs are undesirable. Speeding is undesirable. Jaywalking is undesirable. Spitting your gum out onto the sidewalk is undesirable. Do people deserve to have their careers ruined for these? Hell no! The issue here is that the response from the mob is completely disproportionate and punishes individuals FAR more than they deserve to be punished. They deserve a slap on the wrist, a public apology, shit like that. They don't deserve to be removed from the scene.
Different country has different rules. In Singapore where my aunts and uncles leave, spitting gum onto a sidewalk will instantly get you into jail and this is no joke.
Destiny career is not destroyed. He just "'left" QuanticGaming. He will have his stream featured again after some time.
This is true somewhat. But how much Destiny does deserved to be punished based on racial slurs? Who knows?
Usually though, it will not bring out a pretty outcome if you use racial slurs.
So in order to avoid this scenario is to not use racial slurs. It's simple.
There are people who are offended by racial slurs and there are people who just brushed it off like nothing.
Personally, i find racial slurs disgusting. At best, they should just give Destiny a penalty fine or temporarily banned from playing in tournaments like how they give penalty fines to players who uses racial slur in soccer and basketball.
Example(Kobe fined for using racial slurs and Suarez banned for a few games). Removing them from the teams seems a bit
drastic.
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| TyrionSC2 United States. May 08 2012 12:41. Posts 253 | Profile # |
People flaming for the sake of flaming....
Really sad what lurks in the depths of this community..
As Day9 said once, the community doesn't forget anything, and everything you say will come back to haunt you, so you need to be proud of what you say and just accept it.
1) Destiny was wrong
Nobody is denying that. Racism is dumb.
2) Posting threads for the sole reason to create drama is stupid. Flaming because somebody disagrees is immature.
3) Everybody needs to stop the whole "omg u touched me in my no no i go tell the world on uuuuuuuuu" attitude. Drama is drama. Doesn't need to be spread even worse. It makes me think of girls gossiping when I was back in high school, except now the girls are these angry sc2 players that are more than likely not good at this game.
Moral of the story:
Everybody is wrong. |
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| revel8 United Kingdom. May 08 2012 12:43. Posts 2703 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 12:14 Acritter wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 12:08 revel8 wrote:
On May 08 2012 12:01 Chocobo wrote:
I agree that racism is wrong and that racial slurs are not a good thing. I understand that many people are offended by them
. Stop the press. Chocobo says racism is wrong! Hallelujah! Now maybe he will acknowledge that those who agree with him that racism is wrong are not bigots for thinking that people should be treating with equal respect no matter their race. Maybe he will even stick his neck out and criticise those who make racial slurs.
But should someone have their career destroyed over racial slurs? That's what you have to prove, not that racial slurs are undesirable. Speeding is undesirable. Jaywalking is undesirable. Spitting your gum out onto the sidewalk is undesirable. Do people deserve to have their careers ruined for these? Hell no! The issue here is that the response from the mob is completely disproportionate and punishes individuals FAR more than they deserve to be punished. They deserve a slap on the wrist, a public apology, shit like that. They don't deserve to be removed from the scene.
Personally, I feel Destiny could have stayed with Quantic if he had apologised and pledged not to racially abuse anyone online in future. It appears Destiny was not willing to take such steps and so his position became untenable.
People can make mis-steps of judgement and recover if they show remorse. Destiny was unwilling to do so. He can continue racially abusing people but his association with Quantic has been terminated. |
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