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| Chef May 09 2012 09:16. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
Preamble
The hydra zvz guide was a fun strategy that I think is practical to a certain point, but obviously if you're interested in understanding the standard strategies used by top koreans and amateurs, you might not want to spend your time on it.
Outline
The purpose of this thread is to give very specific scenarios that will occur in normal games, and what you are supposed to do immediately after scouting them. The scenario should be described fully and the reaction will need sufficient detail to help new players.
Rules
It is likely that there will be people in this thread who don't know what they're talking about and will give bad advice. To keep this thread civil but accessible and active, I will say that you do NOT need to have a VOD / high level replay example when describing a scenario and reaction, but you DO need a VOD / high level replay example when challenging or offering a better reaction to a described scenario.
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+ Show Spoiler [ZvT Action Reactions] +
Scenario ZvT. You've built 12 hatch, 11 pool. You spot Terran making a bunker at your natural.
Reaction Pull 4-6 drones. Keep at least a few mining. Use these drones to try to kill the SCV making the bunker. If the bunker completes, or the SCV runs away, use your drones (you will probably need at least 6) to attack and interrupt the marines movement toward the bunker. It is critical that you prevent as many marines from getting to the bunker as possible. If you fail to keep marines from getting to the bunker, continue to block the path of incoming marines away from the bunker with your drones, and build up 8-12 zerglings (depending on how many marines got to the bunker... If only 1 did you might only need 6 lings), and when have have those zerglings, attack simultaneously with your drones and your zerglings while droning from your hatches to make up for lost economy.
Considerations I usually send my second overlord to my natural to check for funny business (both bunkers and cannons) and it seems to discourage players from doing it when they know you can see it. The vision of your morphing hatchery is not longer than the range of a completed bunker, so be wary of that. If you are scouting with your drone and you don't see any barracks building marines, considering pulling back your drones and making just 4 lings, since it could easily be a fake. You have to deal with the bunker, don't meta game your way out of it, but keep an eye out for a fast CC which could indicate a fake.
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+ Show Spoiler [PvT Action Reactions] +
Scenario PvT. You are making an expansion after 1 gate and range. You saw a 2nd factory and wanted to wait for him at his choke to start microing from that location so that you could delay and reduce the amount of units that reach your natural. But it wasnt a 3 tank rush, joyo or something, it was only vulture with speed and minues rush. They are faster and reach your nat while your goons are half way. He put some mines in your choke and nat and starts killing your probes.
Reaction Pull back all the probes at nat to the main and wall off the ramp with pylons (some maps like Tau Cross only 1 is needed) and make obs asap. If a dragoon is almost done building, use it to clog up ramp too (but keep the pylon wall because vultures with mines can kill one goon easily. Build Robo and add 2nd gate and observatory asap, then 3rd gate. Wait for observer and don't lose goons carelessly to mines he obviously planted on the way to your nat.
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+ Show Spoiler [TvZ Action Reactions] +
Scenario TvZ. You are scouting after starting your barracks which has not finished yet. You either see Zerglings with your SCV or scout the 4pool.
Reaction Build a bunker immediately beside your command center (to reduce the surround zerglings can get) in a way that hopefully also covered the first supply depot you made. Rally your marine to your bunker, and after one builds if you don't think you will get another one in time, lift the barrack to the protection of your bunker. Be ready to have scvs repair your bunker and get in the way of zerglings (should be easy since the bunker is beside your command centre).
If you were already making a zergling tight wall, then finish it off and bring 4 or 5 scvs to repair the wall. This will not work if your marine pops out on the vulnerable side of the wall, so consider that too.
Last edit: 2012-05-13 03:19:15 |
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| xxpack09 United States. May 09 2012 11:13. Posts 1795 | Profile Blog # |
| So is this like, a collective [G] thread, or more of a "question and answer" type thing? |
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| ArcTimes Peru. May 09 2012 11:33. Posts 164 | Profile # |
Yes, it's like qusetion and answer? Cause a i have an scenario right now, but don't know a good reaction for it
Scenario PvT. You are making and expansion after 1 gate and range. You saw a 2nd factory and wanted to wait him in his choke to start microing from that location and reduce the amount of units until he reaches your nat. But it wasnt a 3 tank rush, joyo or something, it was only vulture with speed and minues rush. They are faster and reach your nat while your goons are half way. He put some mines in your choke and nat and star raping your probes.
And here is my "Reaction" If you saw the 2nd factory, yopu can start the robo earlier to make a shuttle, but because it's full vultures, make an observatory. When the vultures reach your main, send all probes, YES ALL to mine other base away from your main-nat, because his main goal is to kill your probes. Be patient and wait for the observer. You have to restart the mining asap. Be careful with the mines because one mine is able to make you cry all day. And now you are in an advantageous position. Attack with the goons you have. He may or may not have siege research, but definetly, he is not going to have a lot of tanks (of course you have to make more dragoons while scaping from vultures).
Again, be careful, he is going to try to use more vultures to attack you, the rest is not difficult.
Someone has a better reaction? Someone did this to me once, and i tried to kill the vultures using the probes, and you can be sure that doesn't work. Oh, other thing that could work, is make an obs or some observers, while you are attacking his base. At the start you have to kill minse without observers. And if you can make a good work, he is definetly screwed.
If someone has something better, i would be happy to read it.
Regards. |
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| Chef May 09 2012 12:18. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
| There's a quick questions thread. Ideally this thread would be about describing things you already are confident you know how to react to, so we avoid pages of discussion between people who just want to answer for the sake of answering. That way you get a lot of content that should be of fairly high quality, rather than a lot of low quality / repetitive answers. |
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| Skeggaba Korea (South). May 11 2012 06:34. Posts 1509 | Profile Blog # |
| I thought this was going to be about KT action, but i guess its alright. Will get back with specific questions soon. Nice initiative! |
| | Bisu[about JD]=I was scared (laughs). The force emanating from his facial expression was so manly that I was even a little jealous. | |
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| Chef May 11 2012 11:04. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
| No, you need to have the answers too or this won't work haha... This is basically a share your knowledge kind of thing, without spending the time to write a really detailed guide. |
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| [Cute]Pjnkje Vietnam. May 12 2012 10:44. Posts 48 | Profile # |
On May 09 2012 11:33 ArcTimes wrote:
Yes, it's like qusetion and answer? Cause a i have an scenario right now, but don't know a good reaction for it
Scenario PvT. You are making and expansion after 1 gate and range. You saw a 2nd factory and wanted to wait him in his choke to start microing from that location and reduce the amount of units until he reaches your nat. But it wasnt a 3 tank rush, joyo or something, it was only vulture with speed and minues rush. They are faster and reach your nat while your goons are half way. He put some mines in your choke and nat and star raping your probes.
And here is my "Reaction" If you saw the 2nd factory, yopu can start the robo earlier to make a shuttle, but because it's full vultures, make an observatory. When the vultures reach your main, send all probes, YES ALL to mine other base away from your main-nat, because his main goal is to kill your probes. Be patient and wait for the observer. You have to restart the mining asap. Be careful with the mines because one mine is able to make you cry all day. And now you are in an advantageous position. Attack with the goons you have. He may or may not have siege research, but definetly, he is not going to have a lot of tanks (of course you have to make more dragoons while scaping from vultures).
Again, be careful, he is going to try to use more vultures to attack you, the rest is not difficult.
Someone has a better reaction? Someone did this to me once, and i tried to kill the vultures using the probes, and you can be sure that doesn't work. Oh, other thing that could work, is make an obs or some observers, while you are attacking his base. At the start you have to kill minse without observers. And if you can make a good work, he is definetly screwed.
If someone has something better, i would be happy to read it.
Regards.
My reaction: Pull back all the probes at nat to the main and wall off the ramp with pylons (some maps like Tau Cross only 1 is needed) and make obs asap.
Sorry for the lack of rep/vod, just my experience |
| | High APM is when you press the "gg + ctrl + Q + Q" combination before your opponent has chance to reply "gg" |
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| Zariel Australia. May 12 2012 12:49. Posts 958 | Profile Blog # |
My reaction:
1) Pull nat-probes to main.
2) Use 1-2 goons to block ramp
3) Build Robo and add 2nd gate and observatory asap, then 3rd gate
4) Kill stray vultures in your base, use goons in pairs to defuse mines unless you know there are none in your main
5) Retake natural once you have obs |
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| shucklesors Singapore. May 12 2012 12:51. Posts 1136 | Profile # |
This is a pretty creative initiative  |
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| Chef May 13 2012 00:06. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
We're getting into a problem here with lots of responses to one question which makes it difficult for someone who wants to find the answer.
However, I agree mostly with [Cute]Pjnkje's response, so that's the one I'll add to op. Or maybe I'll make some Frankenstein of the responses. edit: ok I added the PvT scenario. I can't say if the response is totally right or not... Someone feel free to write a better response and link a VOD if they think it is wrong or lacking. Pylon wall sounds like a good idea... and also maybe something you'd want to have started at your nat already? I'm not sure how many pylons you have by that point in the game.Last edit: 2012-05-13 00:20:26 |
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| CaffeineFree-_- United States. May 13 2012 06:26. Posts 641 | Profile Blog # |
| Lot of TvT scenarios I'd like to put here but it's too many "you scout A go B but if you see Ac go Bd" so they'd be so long lol. |
| | We say we love flowers, yet we pluck them. We say we love trees, yet we cut them down. And people still wonder why some are afraid when told they are loved |
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| Chef May 13 2012 06:35. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
| Just do one for each. Someone can even write one for each of the responses to Zerg openings when FEing as Protoss if they want. I am reasonably confident I know what they are, but not exactly... nexus before canon vs 12 hatch, two cannons before nexus vs 9pool, 1 cannon before nexus vs 11pool before hatch, and pylon then cannon in main vs 5pool? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. |
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| CaffeineFree-_- United States. May 13 2012 06:39. Posts 641 | Profile Blog # |
| Ok later I'll do a TvT scenario where you scout 3 scvs on gas, and there will be maybe 3 different followup routes |
| | We say we love flowers, yet we pluck them. We say we love trees, yet we cut them down. And people still wonder why some are afraid when told they are loved |
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| EsX_Raptor United States. May 13 2012 07:07. Posts 2682 | Profile Blog # |
Scenario: ZvP
You're going for the standard 3 hat spire into 5 hat hydras. You reach your opponent's base and see two (perhaps three) gateways with no gas. What do you do?
What if you had already taken your third before you scouted this?
On the other hand, what if you see one gate gas and suspect insanely fast corsairs? |
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| asiantraceur United States. May 13 2012 14:02. Posts 93 | Profile # |
If its two gate and no gas most likely hes doing a 2 gate rush so you need to cut drones and spam lings and try to throw down a sunken or two or three...
If you suspect fast sair proceed as normal and get scourge... |
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| 3FFA United States. May 13 2012 18:32. Posts 2651 | Profile Blog # |
| To add on to the above. DO NOT overreact. If you build too many lings/sunkens then you're playing right into the 2 gater's plan. Usually 2 gaters only do the build to gain an advantage in economy by expanding while you're contained and fearful of whats out there. The 2 gater hopes that you will overdo the lings and sunkens to improve this advantage of his. |
| | I no longer expect the best in people. Sadly, I am beginning to expect much worse. |
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| [Cute]Pjnkje Vietnam. May 13 2012 19:16. Posts 48 | Profile # |
On May 13 2012 07:07 EsX_Raptor wrote:
Scenario: ZvP
You're going for the standard 3 hat spire into 5 hat hydras. You reach your opponent's base and see two (perhaps three) gateways with no gas. What do you do?
What if you had already taken your third before you scouted this?
On the other hand, what if you see one gate gas and suspect insanely fast corsairs?
1. I dont understand the scenario u described. Is it 1 base 2 gate or forge FE => fast 2nd gate then attack with slow zeals?
2. Liquipedia has a pretty detail guide
 Zerg counter to 1 Gate tech
PS: sorry for my bad English, if it is |
| | High APM is when you press the "gg + ctrl + Q + Q" combination before your opponent has chance to reply "gg" |
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| Dead9 United States. May 13 2012 22:17. Posts 2325 | Profile Blog # | |
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| Chef May 13 2012 23:06. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
ok guys... the thread won't work if it goes like this. The issue with presenting a vague scenario and asking for a solution is that everyone will chime in and theorycraft even if they haven't really experienced the situation that much. The idea is to write about a part of starcraft you're very familiar with and quicken the process by which another player can learn what they have to do in that situation. It's like... a really precise answer, the perfect solution to a situation like my bunker rush example which is precisely the way pros deal with it every time it happens.
Like you don't have to be an amazing player or anything, because you only have to know one situation well and everyone has something like that, but do you get what I'm saying. Present the scenario AND the reaction, if you are experienced and confident you know the answer. Otherwise just use the quick question and answer thread. |
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