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| Synk United States. May 10 2012 03:15. Posts 293 | Profile # |
Ok so, I've held 3 rax allins before, 2 rax bunker rushes all this sort of thing but this guy did a really all in 3 rax off only 12 workers, pulled all the workers and just steamrolled me. It wasn't even close, he bum rushed right into my main before I couldn't even finish any spines up there ( which normally works fine while they are killing the nat if your fast ). Does this build just break 15 hatching here? I know I could have canceled my ling speed and my natural queen and built maybe 2 .. 3 more spines but none would have finished. I looked at the rep and my first set of lings went straight out to scout, spotted his all in at 4:40, and he is in my main by 5:20. More over the way he builds his rax at the base of the ramp makes scouting pretty much impossible on this map, even with a drone scout. I like to always figure out what I need to change after I lose like this but this is the first time in awhile in ZvT I feel like the only solution is just not going 15h at all, which is a really big can of worms to me. Last I checked going 14p 14g is even weaker against this kind of thing most of the time.
Do you just have to get lucky with an OL to not die to this going 15h?
Thanks for any input
Edit, rofl forgot to add the rep link
http://drop.sc/175583
(this was a Mid masters game, were both ranked in the 40s in our divisions .. but really anyone could execute the all in he did in the same fashion, or my defense)
Last edit: 2012-05-10 03:23:20 |
| | Don't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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| WarSame Canada. May 10 2012 03:27. Posts 847 | Profile Blog # |
One possibility if you scouted it 100% and were sure what was coming is to wall off your own ramp and put as many spines down as you can. That way he can't run by your spines and you can finish some of them by pulling all drones and making pure ling. As long as you can keep 4 drones or more you will be fine, especially with 2 hatches.
As for this game, you went 15 hatch, scouted on 26 supply, didn't see the attack until it was on the front door, and reacted slowly. If you were able to win vs that it would be a miracle. You need to scout more/earlier. The depot barracks wall on the bottom of the ramp is a massive tell, and the supply call down guarantees a 3 rax about 40-50 seconds before it hits, allowing you time to complete your crawlers. You should have scouted the bottom of the ramp walloff with a drone and brought your first lings to check whether he was calling down or not. |
| | My failures are my fault. My successes are my fault. To think otherwise is to throw away responsibility for my self. | |
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| Th1rdEye United States. May 10 2012 03:33. Posts 809 | Profile Blog # |
It's all about scouting...this isn't a new build, and is holdable with 15 hatch if you make lings in time and get gas at 17 or 18ish and get speed as soon as possible.. of course, spines etc.
You are right, 14 gas 14 pool is usually weaker against this because of the amount of larva you have to spend on zerglings to defend and later spine crawlers.
It's possible to hold with proper surround on marines. I didn't watch the replay because I know the build and you're basically asking about it's viability to killing 15 hatch and whether or not to do so.
Drone scouting can easily scout this a mile a way. A wall on the bottom of the ramp is a huge tell for this exact build, especially if they drop a supply calldown to afford the third rax sooner. |
| | high masters (NA,EU,KR) zerg stream: http://www.twitch.tv/galaxyzerg ! |
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| piiiT May 10 2012 03:40. Posts 43 | Profile # |
| if u go 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool your speed will finish right when they arrive at your base. Ofc you have to micro your lings and drones so they attack the marines and dont waste precious time on the scvs. U have to pull all your drones and both queens to be able this all in and even then and can be really close |
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| Cyro United Kingdom. May 10 2012 03:41. Posts 5720 | Profile Blog # |
| This is far from new, there was a TL thread on it. I believe some plat guy got to high masters/gm by using it. Low ground wall off (1 depot + 1 rax) and 2 extra rax with supply drop, scv pull. Deadly to all 3 races, IIRC killing several pros |
| | Defender of Esports # "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88 # "there really isn’t any actual need to have the minerals and gas constantly displayed" - Blizzard |
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| usNEUX United States. May 10 2012 03:44. Posts 75 | Profile # |
I used this build briefly a couple seasons ago to just troll people on the ladder. Zerg probably has the easiest time holding it off if you just do a standard scout on 10 and drop a couple spines. The only way I could get the all-in to work against z was to push earlier than the build's normal timing.
If you scout depot/rax wall at the bottom of the ramp, stick around and watch if does a supply drop on the depot. As soon as you see that you can be 100% sure what's going on. |
| | Unter allem Diebesgesindel sind die Narren die schlimmsten. Sie rauben euch beides, Zeit und Stimmung. - Goethe. NEVER GIVE UP NEVER SURRENDER. |
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| -KarakStarcraft- United States. May 10 2012 03:49. Posts 258 | Profile # |
Low ground wall off is a huge tell. You don't need to see the supply drop, but it's helpful. Produce nothing except lings and spines (and a queen, I guess) as soon as your pool finishes. Pull all of your drones when he attacks. Preemptively set up a flank with some of your lings so you can avoid the SCV meat wall. Remember, as long as you survive with like 3 drones mining when it's all said and done, you've got the game.
I have never scouted this and lost to it. Only if I don't scout it, which is pretty hard to do considering the low ground wall off spews it.Last edit: 2012-05-10 03:53:03 |
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| Synk United States. May 10 2012 03:58. Posts 293 | Profile # |
I didn't realize the supply depot drop was part of the build, but he keeps 2 marines in front of the ramp here so I couldn't have seen that in time. I built 2 sets of lings the moment my pool finished and sent 1 set to scout, he was already on the way ... my first set of lings literally didn't stop moving from the egg to the rally I had to go scout his base so ling scouting anything. I guess I'm just going to have to assume this is coming if I see a wall at the base of the ramp, at least until I can get enough lings to force his forward rines back behind the wall ( if he is trying to fake this build while expanding ). I really don't see how I would ever actually see the supply drop though with a drone, like this guy did in this game with his 2 rines in front of the wall .. pretty easy to deny that scout.
So if I see a low ramp wall by a terran, just assume its a 3 rax all in until I can get 8-10 lings to go push him behind his wall off so I can actually see his depot ( granted by then it's obviously not this build if he isn't moving out I guess ). So maybe don't even make the lings and just drop 3 or 4 spines and assume it isnt this build after 2 minutes or something? |
| | Don't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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| Zheryn Sweden. May 10 2012 04:19. Posts 864 | Profile # |
Mistake 1: No scouting - can't really expect to win vs early all ins if you don't scout them. Send a drone at 13 supply
Mistake 2: Taking gas before knowing if opponent is doing a gasless all-in.
If you had scouted him you would have had 2 completed spines when he attacks you and all your drones at your natural + 1-2 queens there and a bunch of lings. |
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| Synk United States. May 10 2012 04:24. Posts 293 | Profile # |
So if you see a wall off at the base of the ramp you just blindly go into this kind of defense? Seems like T could punish that kind of reaction by just doing that kind of wall every game now to me and then just go a standard hellion expo. Just seems weird to me to assume it can only be this one build when all your seeing is a bunker and a depot at the bottom of the ramp, it could in fact be any build still couldn't it? Like I said above my drone isn't going to scout the supply drop on the depot since this terran ( and I would think any other doing this wall off ) puts 2 marines out in front of the wall.
I could see just blindly going into a baneling bust maybe to punish that kind of wall, that's something that could payoff regardless of what he is actually doing behind it, but blindly making a ton of defense seems like it would get you way behind if he turns out to just be meta gaming.
edit- took at look at the rep again as well just to double check, no way I could have gotten a drone inside his base either before the rax went up in order to check his geysers. Even if I sent my 10th drone directly to his ramp ( which would be rather lucky ) it still wouldn't get inside. So I can't really know if he is doing a gas-less all in in this case. The only thing a drone scout would tell me is that he built 1 depot, and 1 rax at the bottom of his ramp, and then he made 2 marines out of the rax, at that point my drone would be pushed back past vision of the bottom of the ramp.Last edit: 2012-05-10 04:31:01 |
| | Don't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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| Zheryn Sweden. May 10 2012 04:32. Posts 864 | Profile # |
| Your scout will arrive before he has any marines out. |
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| Synk United States. May 10 2012 04:35. Posts 293 | Profile # |
Your scout will arrive before he has any marines out.
I didn't say it wouldn't. Like I said above, my scout will arrive to see 1 depot, 1 rax, and then probably get to see the 1rst and 2nd marine made and that is all. What does this tell me besides that he walled the bottom of the ramp? I get that everyone is saying it's a big tell for this build, but it could actually be any build still. 1 depot and 1 rax is just a normal opening for every terran build except CC first, building them at the bottom of the ramp doesn't somehow commit you to doing a 3 rax all in. It just say's you wanted to deny the drone scout which really I don't know why every Terran doesn't do it besides being a little bit more vulnerable to a baneling bust. |
| | Don't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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| Synk United States. May 10 2012 04:37. Posts 293 | Profile # |
| I guess from now on if I see a wall at the bottom of the ramp I will just plan to baneling bust it, I don't see any other option. To me blindly setting up to defend a 3 rax all in from seeing 1 depot and 1 rax at the bottom of a ramp is going to lead to a lot of meta game loses to guys who are actually doing a hellion expo in their base. The baneling bust will allow me to either defend the 3rax all in, or punish the more vulnerable wall off a little later on. Last edit: 2012-05-10 04:38:55 |
| | Don't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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| LovE- United States. May 10 2012 04:44. Posts 1927 | Profile Blog # |
On May 10 2012 04:37 Synk wrote:
I guess from now on if I see a wall at the bottom of the ramp I will just plan to baneling bust it, I don't see any other option. To me blindly setting up to defend a 3 rax all in from seeing 1 depot and 1 rax at the bottom of a ramp is going to lead to a lot of meta game loses to guys who are actually doing a hellion expo in their base. The baneling bust will allow me to either defend the 3rax all in, or punish the more vulnerable wall off a little later on.
Really the only thing you should need to beat this build is a second (or third, depends on how many lings you want to make) spine at your natural.
That along with drone pull queen + some lings usually stops this build easily. So you don't have to build a blind baneling nest, just get a second spine and a few more lings and you will hold this ezpz. The terran build should only really work vs toss, because a 2nd spine from zerg or a bunker from terran is all it takes to stop the build.Last edit: 2012-05-10 04:45:11 |
| | LovE.311 (NA) || @LovE_Sc2 |
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| FairForever Canada. May 10 2012 04:46. Posts 2186 | Profile # |
1) There's really no need to go gas before pool v T. There's almost no situation where you need the gas that early - it does have a significant negative effect to your econ at the benefit of faster ling speed (which I always feel is overrated).
2) You're right - if they use the lowground walloff and just 1rax expand or something you are behind. But most terrans thankfully don't do that because it is very cheesy and not allowed in tournament play - if a terran player does it regularly he'll probably overachieve on ladder but probably be less skilled than you so you can hopefully catch up later in the match. Typically I look for other signs when 12/13 scouting.
a) Move your drone around - see if another marine fires from above. That's a dead giveaway (it's only happened to me once).
b) Rax timing. Inexplicably, some people don't build the lowground rax as the first one, which gives the timings away.
c) Try and keep your drone alive for the supply drop. If you don't see it then typically you don't have to worry about the all-in coming.
When I see this play usually I just build one spine right away, and use my main-base queen for tumor (instead of double larva inject). If then I see the attack coming (try and keep drone at tower anyway, since you want to be scouting for 2rax bunker rushes) I try to put up as many spines as possible at my main, and move my other spine up the ramp. I haven't had exceptional success against this build but really it's impossible to scout - thankfully OL speed getting buffed. |
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| Synk United States. May 10 2012 04:53. Posts 293 | Profile # |
2) You're right - if they use the lowground walloff and just 1rax expand or something you are behind. But most terrans thankfully don't do that because it is very cheesy and not allowed in tournament play
That's a good point, I hadn't considered it. I guess you can't wall down there on the tournie maps due to the neutral depot, something as small as that kinda breaks the build doesn't it.
Really the only thing you should need to beat this build is a second (or third, depends on how many lings you want to make) spine at your natural.
I think your probably right about that, still might come down to some good ( better ) micro to avoid losing too many drones so I don't just get steamrolled by the mule econ after I hold the first push though. I'll give it a try though.
I kinda wish I had asked this guy for a few regames or something, I see the build so rarely it's hard to really flesh out the proper reaction to it. I think I have some good(or at least workable) options now though, thanks. |
| | Don't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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| MstrJinbo United States. May 10 2012 05:14. Posts 778 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 04:37 Synk wrote:
I guess from now on if I see a wall at the bottom of the ramp I will just plan to baneling bust it, I don't see any other option. To me blindly setting up to defend a 3 rax all in from seeing 1 depot and 1 rax at the bottom of a ramp is going to lead to a lot of meta game loses to guys who are actually doing a hellion expo in their base. The baneling bust will allow me to either defend the 3rax all in, or punish the more vulnerable wall off a little later on.
It's probably not a fast reactor hellion expand. With the low ground Rax and the long build time of reactors the Terran has to either build the reactor on the factory which slows down the hellions a lot or build the reactor in a vulnerable spot with only one or two marines guarding it. It's either going to be a 1 Rax expand, a 2 Rax, or the 3 Rax allin. Over preparing doesn't hurt you against the 2 or 3 Rax. You are a little behind for a 1 Rax expo but nothing you can't overcome. |
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| Synk United States. May 10 2012 05:32. Posts 293 | Profile # |
It's probably not a fast reactor hellion expand. With the low ground Rax and the long build time of reactors the Terran has to either build the reactor on the factory which slows down the hellions a lot or build the reactor in a vulnerable spot with only one or two marines guarding it. It's either going to be a 1 Rax expand, a 2 Rax, or the 3 Rax allin. Over preparing doesn't hurt you against the 2 or 3 Rax. You are a little behind for a 1 Rax expo but nothing you can't overcome.
Oh yea, that's another good point. Man I really had a mental block on this thing, thanks. |
| | Don't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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| -KarakStarcraft- United States. May 10 2012 09:31. Posts 258 | Profile # |
Also consider the timing of the rax finishing relative to your scout arriving + the marine count. By the time you are mid-masters you should have a feel of when a marine count seems too high.
And if he does 1 rax expand, he's going to be stuck in his base for a while and that low ground wall off is REALLY vulnerable to roach/ling or ling/bling all-ins. Hell it's vulnerable to speedling all-ins since he has very low surface area to repair on and you have a larger surface area to attack. No one is going to open this and then macro safely. If they do, you can just take a quick 3rd as they are going to feel exposed.
Just prepare accordingly if you see the low ground wall off and you'll be fine.Last edit: 2012-05-10 09:31:46 |
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| lhr0909 United States. May 10 2012 10:49. Posts 531 | Profile Blog # |
Umm, if you have trouble facing this style, you can always try to go gasless ZvT
Build order as follows:
+ Show Spoiler +
15 hatch
16 pool
18 overlord
@100% pool, 2 queens, 2 sets of lings, 1 spine
27 overlord
@100% queen 2 more queens
@44 supply, 3 extractors + roach warren
This build is very nice for early game, of course you "give up" map control for the first eight minutes in the game, but you will take it back with your roaches, and after that you can take a fast third before lair tech.
To hold off a 3 rax scv all in:
Remember the all in comes in at about 4:30. so you should be able to scout with your first 4 lings (2 for towers, one for his third, one for the front door checking on things. If you smell anything fishy, put down a second spine, and get ready to pump lings and move your queens down for the engagement. If he is pulling SCV's, make sure you pull drones too (you can pull as many as you need to, because it is all in by him, you have to have to hold it to win the game) |
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