On May 10 2012 08:41 Musiq wrote: Pyre_Fly pretty much nailed it, Mech is so much better if you put plenty of pressure on Zerg midgame hence why modern TvZ revolves around either a fast ebay after first rax (turtle early to have a upgrade advantage) or mass rax vs 3 hatch mutalisk to fight on the field and deny the 3rd gas. SKTerran is still very viable, you just have to really abuse drops and have excellent use of mines. @ xxpack09: I feel that ultras are not so hard if you start adding firebats to your M&M army to kill off zerglings
Pros dont actually use 1rax ebay much any more.. its back to the classics these days - 2 rax acad and mnm pre muta to force sunks. 1rax ebay can be countered by zerg getting 0 sunks so its not fool proof.
Ilikestarcraft United States. May 11 2012 08:12. Posts 16577
On May 10 2012 21:49 GTR wrote: at a lower level it is easier to do mech than to do sk terran
I agree with you on full mech but I actually have been trying to practice bio into late game mech switch lately and I find it tricky actually making the full switch. Once you actually make the switch mech is easier, but actually making the switch seems complicated to me. I found transitioning into sk terran when you open with bio a lot easier because you just need to add a second port, take a third and add more raxes. While with the mech switch, have to add facts, armory, know when to stop producing from raxes, lift them, pressure with the remaining rines and vessels you have while using mines for map control. Maybe its because I have been a sk terran style user for a while so its more of trying to break old habits that I'm finding difficult.
Last edit: 2012-05-11 08:12:58
hungry
Mortality United States. May 11 2012 10:42. Posts 4790
Ultimately you have to learn the bio into mech transition. Mech provides the most powerful lategame option.
That said you are D rank and therefore learning. You shouldn't do something because it is the best for progamers, but because it has the highest payout for YOU. That's why I'm going to advocate that you learn SK Terran late game. In the short run it will be much harder and more frustrating and you will take more losses, especially whenever you let the Zerg take too many bases and he starts making a gazillion ultras and it will feel as though you are working twice as hard as he is and yet steadily losing ground.
But you have to look at this as an investment. Learning to control bionic armies and simultaneously maintain production, learning how to minimize Zerg expansion efforts, etc., is not going to be done by studying the mech transition. And this is important because there are many different timings to the mech transition and several different approaches to utilizing mech -- it is not just one build or even just one strategy -- and some of these involve more use of bionic than others. You won't get good at this game without learning mid/late bionic control and proper midgame map control with bionic.
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At your level, you don't necessary need a full mech transition. Two/three factories speed vultures + mines is deadly against zerg's late game composition. Until C- level, players don't mine sweep properly with a good overlord spread + mutas or hydras, and then you can use vultures with no mines to raid expos. Actually even at pro level we often see huge mine daebaks on lurkers/defilers/ultras.
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sluggaslamoo Australia. May 11 2012 14:49. Posts 3486
Go +1 Attack 5 Rax with Vessels, pressure, research mines and drop 2 more facts. Mine out the map, get 3rd, lift raxes and transition to 5 fact mech double armory. That's currently the strongest way to play TvZ.
The hardest part about late mech is doing the transition quick enough that Zerg doesn't end up just mass droning into unlimited ultras it needs to be a very smooth transition. You don't wanna float to 3k because you forgot to pump bio while making vults.
SKTerran simply doesn't have enough muscle late-game against good Zergs. SKTerran is really for very open maps with a flat or open 3rd where Zerg will have to spend more resources trying to protect it, like Eye of the Storm or Odd Eye or possibly reverse ramp maps.
Last edit: 2012-05-11 14:50:07
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FlaShFTW United States. May 12 2012 04:59. Posts 4960
without sufficient apm and unit control, like me, i usually play out into a mech style, because its easy to micro and simple. sk terran requires too much apm for me to deal with, especially with the number of mnm youll have (my hands are small so they wont really reach across the keyborad for the army very well).
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all that answers..... dont listen to anybody saying one is better than the other, even if it is from a pro (sea, hiya, ...). both styles have their pro and con based on your starting build and zerg starting build and the map. both styles are hard because bw is not an easy game. it doesnt matter which one u want to play.
On May 10 2012 15:36 gutshot wrote: as a zerg player, I would say late-mech is wayyyyyyyyyy more harder to deal with than SK-terran but it's also harder for them to execute imo
for me late mech is easier to deal with than sk terran.
I think a thing about is that countering late-game bio mass drops requires really good reaction with scourge. without it bio is extremely powerful just like mech is, as bypasses the swarms
I think it really depends on the situation... I like to stick with sk but have 2 or 3 facts to make tanks/vults for defense. playing vs ultraling can be near impossible with pure sk if the zerg gets to turtle enough.
Last edit: 2012-05-30 05:32:47
sluggaslamoo Australia. May 30 2012 09:59. Posts 3486
On May 29 2012 13:53 jpak wrote: Go SKTerran. You will learn to multitask and at that level, most zergs ill not be able to keep up, especially if you start dropping marines too.
I found SKTerran much much easier than late mech, the multitasking is even easier. You definitely need more apm with SKTerran but less multitasking if that makes any sense. The hardest part about late-mech is the multitasking required during the transition, making facts, lifting raxes, mining the map, 3rd base, while still microing/macroing a paltry 5-rax bio army and not forgetting to pump vessels from 1 starport. Most often I die there or lose to the mass ultra followup because I stopped being aggressive during that time. Building up rax count and maintaining a large vessel/bio count from 2 Starports/8 Raxes is pretty easy, I used to rarely go above 500 minerals while staying aggressive and irradiating everything.
Problem is you will hit a brick wall where you will have to learn late mech anyway because just like pure mech, SKTerran is really only viable on certain maps after a certain level of skill. At low levels of skill, players don't create scourge or plague your vessels so its pretty easy to just irradiate 20 ultras and eraser his bases and win the game, but after a certain point they will start plaguing your vessels and scourging them, making it really difficult because you don't have enough muscle to push through endless darkswarms and actually kill his bases while holding more than 2-3 bases.
Late game Terran vs Zerg is HARD. It's probably the most APM-demanding of any matchup, regardless of whether you go bio (i.e. skterran) or mech.
So, let's talk about late game. Meaning zerg has >=5 bases, and has good enough macro to pretty much constantly pump lurkers, lings, and defilers, and they have the money to push ultras. This is when things get difficult for SKTerran. You're moving around the map with 3-4 groups of medice/marines and about 12 vessels, irradiating everything in sight, stimming nonstop. But you can't get into those bases fast enough--there's always swarm defending, lurkers, etc. Zerg's pushes become more deadly as ultras get speed on top of swarm.
This is where Terran mech comes in: it allows map control against swarm, which otherwise is something that's only obtained by pure aggression. A zerg fighting against bio that wants to push can do easily with swarm. Terran must always retreat. Instead, going mech gives you a line of tanks that let more or less nothing across. It also gives Terran the ability to harass in ways they couldn't otherwise--with speed vultures. Flash is exceptionally good at this, sending groups of vultures to various expos and killing all of the drones. And mines are great for absorbing big groups of lings that otherwise could do huge amounts of damage.
But maintaining map control as mech against a Z is REALLY apm-demanding, because zerg is so damn mobile. You need turrents, mine fields, and lots and lots of tanks. Knowing when to push is something that's really difficult.
On May 31 2012 21:39 XenOsky- wrote: winning with SK terran vs defiler/ultra/crakling is one of the best feelings in the world... if you are manly enough try SK...
Starship Troopers mass marines style for the motha fucking win.
Last edit: 2012-06-02 01:38:27
Poetic[AoV] United Kingdom. June 02 2012 02:00. Posts 97
Just because most pros go mech in the lategame now, sk terran is still very good. It transitions better from a standard opening, and zergs below korean a+ level have not become too good at turtling on 4 base defilers. SK terran is more fun as well!
On May 10 2012 08:41 Musiq wrote: Pyre_Fly pretty much nailed it, Mech is so much better if you put plenty of pressure on Zerg midgame hence why modern TvZ revolves around either a fast ebay after first rax (turtle early to have a upgrade advantage) or mass rax vs 3 hatch mutalisk to fight on the field and deny the 3rd gas. SKTerran is still very viable, you just have to really abuse drops and have excellent use of mines. @ xxpack09: I feel that ultras are not so hard if you start adding firebats to your M&M army to kill off zerglings
Pros dont actually use 1rax ebay much any more.. its back to the classics these days - 2 rax acad and mnm pre muta to force sunks. 1rax ebay can be countered by zerg getting 0 sunks so its not fool proof.
then they lose their natural once you get 2 groups of mm
On May 10 2012 08:41 Musiq wrote: Pyre_Fly pretty much nailed it, Mech is so much better if you put plenty of pressure on Zerg midgame hence why modern TvZ revolves around either a fast ebay after first rax (turtle early to have a upgrade advantage) or mass rax vs 3 hatch mutalisk to fight on the field and deny the 3rd gas. SKTerran is still very viable, you just have to really abuse drops and have excellent use of mines. @ xxpack09: I feel that ultras are not so hard if you start adding firebats to your M&M army to kill off zerglings
Pros dont actually use 1rax ebay much any more.. its back to the classics these days - 2 rax acad and mnm pre muta to force sunks. 1rax ebay can be countered by zerg getting 0 sunks so its not fool proof.
i personally don't think that this is quite right? in the previous proleague season, i recall seeing 1 rax ebay the staple build in tvz because the +1 attack s simply way too good against the mutas.
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