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| Jermstuddog United States. May 11 2012 01:26. Posts 2054 | Profile Blog # |
I've been playing with the spanishiwa style again lately anyway and my biggest problem is always extra lings sneaking by my ovies. Even builds like 10 pool are just a non-issue so long as I see them coming.
The only concern on the validity of my claim is whether Ovies really can make it to critical points on the map in time to spot these kinds of attacks. Judging from the fact that I am currently just a few seconds off, the new speedier ovies should definitely meet this requirement.
I stand by my claim and it will come to pass in the next month or two. Even making a handful of lings will set you so far behind, you've already lost. |
| | As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro | |
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| slane04 Canada. May 11 2012 01:27. Posts 23 | Profile # |
I'm confused, is the queen change to address some sort of imbalance at the pro level? I've never really seen a problem. Mass blue flame build? marauder hellion timing? So is it to help lower leagues out? It's what it looks like. I thought it was Blizzard's policy to balance at the highest level. Zergs sure are getting a lot for a 150 mineral unit... It's just frustrating. Other races seem to get buffs for possible slight imbalances, while a generally accepted problem, lategame tvp, is acknowledged, but otherwise ignored.
I understand it's VERY difficult to balance late gale compositions without making huge changes. I doubt anything will happen until HotS.
Overlord buff, check
queen buff, ?
observer buff, ? I guess protoss needs to know what all-in is coming sooner... |
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| Sabu113 United States. May 11 2012 01:27. Posts 6251 | Profile Blog # |
On May 11 2012 01:15 The KY wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:02 Crow! wrote:
I've always thought that scans were the most powerful thing Terran had. Mules are better than normal workers, but not by nearly the wtfhax amount a lot of my non-terran bretheren say. The value of a scan - or even of just having a scan available in case you happen to need it - starts high and continually climbs as the game progresses.
No, scans are not free, and while I'd like to see a smaller radius on them, I'm fine with Terran having access to it.
But yes, Obs are horrendous. I personally don't make them unless there are cloaked units, in favor of adding Phoenixes which cost only 25 more gas and can actually scout. Observers generally can't acutally do their job if the opponent is paying attention, which is just embarassing. Maybe the build time decrease will make creating them less cringe-worthy, but I'm not convinced. They are just not worth 75 gas. Which should be no surprise; the Zerg equivalent (which is less prone to being picked off, and is fast enough to actually get the desired data in time for it to be relevant) was deemed to be worth only 50 gas and no supply.
Wait obs are bad now? Dafuq. You appear assume that their 'job' is to scout the opponent's base and nothing more, I'd vehemently disagree. In BW, where by the way methods of detection were largely identical to SC2, people just made observers and placed them around the map. Imagine if, for example, today in GSL + Show Spoiler +Parting vs MVP Metropolis, if Parting just sits an obs in the air between his base and MVP's he does not die to that doom drop. And if MVP somehow knows there's an obs there he has to make a viking and then scan to kill it. Not worth 75 gas? I'd pay 100.
To be fair, you're not spending gas like Toss do unlock the ability to go out on the map. Also parting saw the drop coming in. He had an obs by the front of his base. He was trying to ambush the drop ratehr than deny it... when there wasn't enough energy to make the feedbacks worthwhile he just died.
That said I'm pretty happy not having to buy a frickin observatory first. If this change can narrow down the 1-1-1 roulette it'll be a welcome one.
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| | "But looking at player’s responses, I think they are correct in calling it “Terrancraft.”- Coach Park |  |
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| bigbadgreen United States. May 11 2012 01:28. Posts 79 | Profile # |
| Could the queen range buff be to help against 2 rax? Queens would be in range faster to help deal damage or repel scvs. I think that 2 rax gives terran such an upper hand when pulled off correctly. With only a small investment in resources you protect your base fully as well as the zerg player having to play perfectly. It also doesn't hurt the economy of terran at all while impacting zerg quite a bit with drone pulls being the only way to defend it. Now i think queens will be able to attack from high ground on some maps and be able to assist in the attack. |
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| Shafanhow United States. May 11 2012 01:28. Posts 47 | Profile # |
On May 11 2012 01:20 lamiller wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:18 Shafanhow wrote:
If someone already mentioned this sorry, but are they gonna have to change the Queen's attack animation? From 3 to 5 is gonna take some really long arms.
They are probably going to detach the queens arms
LOL Boomerang arms!
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| Ansinjunger United States. May 11 2012 01:28. Posts 1901 | Profile # |
All these changes say to me is that terrans can just micro their units to death in order to hope to stay on even terms with units that require 1/10th of the micro. No, banshee openings don't rely on there not being a robo, per se. If there is a robo, they force extra observers and can usually get a few kills before obs are out. Obs already build in 30 seconds with chronoboost.
It seems to me the obs change will help PvT early/mid game. I'd be more okay with it if late game heavily favoring Protoss wasn't completely ignored. Why are they claiming that the balance is fine because of T's early game advantage, but then nerfing T's early game advantage without buffing T's late game? My best guess is that they can't figure out what to do, and the blame unfortunately lies with warp gate, imo. I thought they wanted to let things sit for a long time before changing them, but they nerfed Thors after ThorZaIN beat MC--terrible inconsistency but not on the level of Bioware's madness...yet.
And it may kill ling/bling zvz, which is actually quite interesting compared to mass roach/infestor or roach/hydra.
I'm all for giving Z and P better units that make micro more appreciable, however, the phoenix change, for example, certainly didn't do that. It made phoenix vs muta micro relatively easy. Currently, most Z and P units make terran micro more impressive than their own races'. |
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| sLBoGoRoH Netherlands. May 11 2012 01:29. Posts 124 | Profile # |
| is it updated allready cause i still see o.47 but it looks like it movesw faster |
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| FabledIntegral United States. May 11 2012 01:37. Posts 8377 | Profile Blog # |
On May 10 2012 19:28 StarBrift wrote:
Any terran that thinks it was fair when they could park 2-4 helions outside creep and completely stop creep spread until they were chased away by units needs a wake up call. Now you will need to commit to atleast 6 helinons and you will actually have to have multitasking to deny creep tumors. 6 helions will still be able to dive into queen attack range and pick up building tumors easily. The only trade off is that you actually have to lose like 20% hp on one of your helions to do it and the fact that you can't spend 200 minerals to nullify creep spread until 8 minutes into the game.
Except you can't stop creep with 2-4 hellions, you can only contain it, temporarily at that. You can still spread creep on almost all maps via putting tumors on the higher ground, such as Antiga, Cloud Kingdom, Shakuras, Ohana, and actually I'm pretty sure almost every map out there. And if you have ling speed, hellions aren't going to do shit.
Have you ever seen what it's like for a Terran who tries a runby and loses their first 4 hellions, even if they get say 5-6 drones? You have creep spread at their natural like 4 minutes later. |
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| Font May 11 2012 01:39. Posts 97 | Profile # |
I dont know where there is such a huge discussion about this. I dont even play starcraft 2 and I can see exacly why they did this. Think of a 2 rax opening/bunker rush
This costs nothing to terran, they will bring back the racks and salvage the bunker. Terrran is guaranteed to do damage to zerg`s economy with that opening wether its the zerg pulling drones or you getting the hatchery. By making the range bigger for queens it makes it easier for them to stop that bunker from getting up or those marines just killing you straight up.
Starcraft isnt a game meant to end in 5 mins but mid to late game. |
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| mahO France. May 11 2012 01:40. Posts 268 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 17:15 Femari wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 17:14 Corgi Apocalypse wrote:
On May 10 2012 17:07 HamachiGO wrote:
more balanced : Add colosus make in warpgate in 1 second , utralisk in min 3 , and terran sure first marine min 30 :-) Blizzard don't like terran
Which is why nerfs to Terran have been needed to be made. Terran will still be the best race overall, even after this patch. Don't worry.
But they're not the best race overall
There is no best race overall, there is only different difficulty level to each race, which makes some race way better at say platinum level than they are at GSL level.
This game is balanced around the pro scene, get over it, we still see terrans advancing in major tournaments but yeah, terran is hard to play with 60 apm, switch or get better, but SC2 wont ever be a noob friendly game, hell, even at my mmr (mid master EU), I recognize that terran in many cases require more skill and multitasking than Z or P, but if changing that would mean killing the esport scene, fuck no. Plus, like I said earlier to a T whining on ladder, you still got easy as fuck strategies that are effective and unexplored (mech requires half a brain to play...), terrans just got the habit of sticking to one major build per match up, while P or Z spent the 2 years of SC2 changing metagame, your turn now.
Also, to be honest, I dont find the helion opening good compared to 1 raxx expand TvZ, map control was good when zergs didnt know how to adapt, but now that every single zerg played around 200 games vs helion opening, it's not as essential as it was before.Last edit: 2012-05-11 01:41:04 |
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 treekiller United States. May 11 2012 01:40. Posts 236 | Profile # |
| I have not noticed any difference so far and I play terran. My helions are just as strong, you just have to elevator them.. It kindof sucks that i cant go cloak shees any more, but it wasnt that good anyways. |
| | All good things must come to an end. Therefore, SC2 will last forever |
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| virpi Germany. May 11 2012 01:41. Posts 1516 | Profile Blog # |
bahahaha....bunker not changed.
nice one! |
| | first we make expand, then we defense it. |  |
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| Lovely_US United States. May 11 2012 01:42. Posts 93 | Profile # |
On May 11 2012 01:37 FabledIntegral wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 19:28 StarBrift wrote:
Any terran that thinks it was fair when they could park 2-4 helions outside creep and completely stop creep spread until they were chased away by units needs a wake up call. Now you will need to commit to atleast 6 helinons and you will actually have to have multitasking to deny creep tumors. 6 helions will still be able to dive into queen attack range and pick up building tumors easily. The only trade off is that you actually have to lose like 20% hp on one of your helions to do it and the fact that you can't spend 200 minerals to nullify creep spread until 8 minutes into the game.
Except you can't stop creep with 2-4 hellions, you can only contain it, temporarily at that. You can still spread creep on almost all maps via putting tumors on the higher ground, such as Antiga, Cloud Kingdom, Shakuras, Ohana, and actually I'm pretty sure almost every map out there. And if you have ling speed, hellions aren't going to do shit. Have you ever seen what it's like for a Terran who tries a runby and loses their first 4 hellions, even if they get say 5-6 drones? You have creep spread at their natural like 4 minutes later.
Well Terrans who try a runby with 4 hellions made a very bad decision, thats all. There have been many times where the first 4 hellions kill more drones but the creep spread is still very far. The second you lose those 4 hellions you lose map control: thats just that. |
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| FairForever Canada. May 11 2012 01:42. Posts 2186 | Profile # |
On May 11 2012 01:26 Jermstuddog wrote:
I've been playing with the spanishiwa style again lately anyway and my biggest problem is always extra lings sneaking by my ovies. Even builds like 10 pool are just a non-issue so long as I see them coming.
The only concern on the validity of my claim is whether Ovies really can make it to critical points on the map in time to spot these kinds of attacks. Judging from the fact that I am currently just a few seconds off, the new speedier ovies should definitely meet this requirement.
I stand by my claim and it will come to pass in the next month or two. Even making a handful of lings will set you so far behind, you've already lost.
I'll believe it when I see it. I call BS on this. All-in builds in ZvZ are uncommon at high levels anyway because they're not that bad to scout. It's really a tug of war game, trying to drone up while forcing lings out of your opponent, before the tech switches. Banelings are still definitely usable in ZvZ, I don't like them that much but I don't expect to see them less... |
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| FATJESUSONABIKE May 11 2012 01:43. Posts 184 | Profile # |
thank yu blizzard for balancing the game by making it less diverse.
good way to go, dumbf*cks :-)
User was warned for this post |
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| scypio Poland. May 11 2012 01:43. Posts 868 | Profile # |
On May 11 2012 01:28 bigbadgreen wrote:
Could the queen range buff be to help against 2 rax? Queens would be in range faster to help deal damage or repel scvs. I think that 2 rax gives terran such an upper hand when pulled off correctly. With only a small investment in resources you protect your base fully as well as the zerg player having to play perfectly. It also doesn't hurt the economy of terran at all while impacting zerg quite a bit with drone pulls being the only way to defend it. Now i think queens will be able to attack from high ground on some maps and be able to assist in the attack.
I feel that almost every plat+ (and a good bunch of gold too) zerg on EU server knows how to handle 2rax. Overlord at the nat, pull 4-6 drones if scouted, attack the scv and the marine, build 1 spine ASAP if it's 11/11. Problem solved.
2rax has been dead for quite a while. The queen buff will help to deal with it, but it's like digging a body out of its grave just to punch it in the face  |
| | TLception: balance-whining-whining... and don't comment football games unless your in Champions League! |
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| The KY United Kingdom. May 11 2012 01:44. Posts 6235 | Profile Blog # |
On May 11 2012 01:27 Sabu113 wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:15 The KY wrote:
On May 11 2012 01:02 Crow! wrote:
I've always thought that scans were the most powerful thing Terran had. Mules are better than normal workers, but not by nearly the wtfhax amount a lot of my non-terran bretheren say. The value of a scan - or even of just having a scan available in case you happen to need it - starts high and continually climbs as the game progresses.
No, scans are not free, and while I'd like to see a smaller radius on them, I'm fine with Terran having access to it.
But yes, Obs are horrendous. I personally don't make them unless there are cloaked units, in favor of adding Phoenixes which cost only 25 more gas and can actually scout. Observers generally can't acutally do their job if the opponent is paying attention, which is just embarassing. Maybe the build time decrease will make creating them less cringe-worthy, but I'm not convinced. They are just not worth 75 gas. Which should be no surprise; the Zerg equivalent (which is less prone to being picked off, and is fast enough to actually get the desired data in time for it to be relevant) was deemed to be worth only 50 gas and no supply.
Wait obs are bad now? Dafuq. You appear assume that their 'job' is to scout the opponent's base and nothing more, I'd vehemently disagree. In BW, where by the way methods of detection were largely identical to SC2, people just made observers and placed them around the map. Imagine if, for example, today in GSL + Show Spoiler +Parting vs MVP Metropolis, if Parting just sits an obs in the air between his base and MVP's he does not die to that doom drop. And if MVP somehow knows there's an obs there he has to make a viking and then scan to kill it. Not worth 75 gas? I'd pay 100.
To be fair, you're not spending gas like Toss do unlock the ability to go out on the map. Also parting saw the drop coming in. He had an obs by the front of his base. He was trying to ambush the drop ratehr than deny it... when there wasn't enough energy to make the feedbacks worthwhile he just died. That said I'm pretty happy not having to buy a frickin observatory first. If this change can narrow down the 1-1-1 roulette it'll be a welcome one.
He saw it coming, then leave, and when it came back his stalkers were way out of position again and every single unit gets out of the medivacs. It's only one example, but I guarantee you if Parting had an obs out there that simply does not happen and he's still in that game.
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| weedhydra May 11 2012 01:45. Posts 28 | Profile # |
| I like the observer and the overlord changes. I'm not really sure about the queen change, have to see how it plays out. |
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| Amaterasu1234 United States. May 11 2012 01:49. Posts 317 | Profile # |
| Did the US server just go down? |
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| mahO France. May 11 2012 01:50. Posts 268 | Profile # |
On May 11 2012 01:37 FabledIntegral wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 19:28 StarBrift wrote:
Any terran that thinks it was fair when they could park 2-4 helions outside creep and completely stop creep spread until they were chased away by units needs a wake up call. Now you will need to commit to atleast 6 helinons and you will actually have to have multitasking to deny creep tumors. 6 helions will still be able to dive into queen attack range and pick up building tumors easily. The only trade off is that you actually have to lose like 20% hp on one of your helions to do it and the fact that you can't spend 200 minerals to nullify creep spread until 8 minutes into the game.
Except you can't stop creep with 2-4 hellions, you can only contain it, temporarily at that. You can still spread creep on almost all maps via putting tumors on the higher ground, such as Antiga, Cloud Kingdom, Shakuras, Ohana, and actually I'm pretty sure almost every map out there. And if you have ling speed, hellions aren't going to do shit. Have you ever seen what it's like for a Terran who tries a runby and loses their first 4 hellions, even if they get say 5-6 drones? You have creep spread at their natural like 4 minutes later.
Ahah, gotta love the idiotic statements, yes, mass speedling can chase and kill 4 hellions, but guess what, thats why it's called MASS, because it's uneffective, and you need to devote 12 larvae and 600 minerals to chase 400 minerals of units, and you're not even sure to loose them without killing more than 1 if the terran micros well, and about creep spread, if the zerg invests 300 in creep queens and spend a major amount of apm to this spread (yes it does, people tend to think it's automatic) he should be rewarded, also, nobody prevents terran from getting one raven for PDD (it's actually really good vs corruptors when broodlords are out) and detection. Oh, and scans.
Not so long ago hellions dealt way more damage, and I didnt see you complain about it, even if it was unbalanced, same thing when speed reapers, bunkers quicker, tanks 50 damage on bio (lol) etc. The game is evolving, get over it
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