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| Mjolnir May 27 2012 23:54. Posts 813 | Profile # |
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Last edit: 2012-05-27 23:55:36 |
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| weiliem Malaysia. May 28 2012 00:03. Posts 1081 | Profile # |
| How i hope the ghost emp area nerf to be reverted..... perhaps it could produce btr TvP late game than just 1 sided protoss rape.... |
| | NaDa is the best |  |
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| david0925 May 28 2012 00:15. Posts 190 | Profile # |
I'm actually grateful they removed the Tempest and Replicant (assuming this is true).
Those 2 are really, really gimmicky units that serve very, very niche roles. This is not healthy for any RTS, even for ones as diverse as Starcraft.
And yes, as with many other Protoss Players, I am more than willing to sacrifice some kind of late game advantage for early units that I can micromanage against other races before the deathball comes out. I also think they need to review movement-impairing effects such as Force Field, Fungal Growth, and Concussive Shell. |
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| s3rp Germany. May 28 2012 00:22. Posts 2767 | Profile # |
On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky .
Last edit: 2012-05-28 00:24:48 |
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| [UoN]Sentinel United States. May 28 2012 00:22. Posts 2463 | Profile Blog # |
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
From what I remember, in BW they were absolute shit vs. Protoss or Terran. In BW mech owned bio no competition. The lack of marauders helped too (all other infantry did concussive damage) but vultures and tanks were both amazingly cost-effective against them. So Barracks units are out, what's that leave for the midgame? Factory units. Bleh.
And I see no problems with marines, at least in PvT. Protoss has so many ways to deal with them at any time in the game. You could make the same argument for blink stalkers since they seem to be expensive armored marines. Anything they can't counter (like immortals) they can just outrun and be happy. |
| | One day I'll get around to writing my 17-minute epic. Also, exploring heavy metal. || Seize the day! |  |
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| JustPassingBy May 28 2012 00:23. Posts 6243 | Profile Blog # |
On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
Sorry, but if a marine terran can defeat a bane/infestor zerg, then it's not because the marine is imbalanced, but it's because the terran just outplayed the zerg hard! Microing perfectly, you might pull something as you described, but do you know how incredibly hard it is to do that? If the terran can do that while macroing toe-on-toe with the zerg, then the zerg is simply being outplayed.Last edit: 2012-05-28 00:24:41 |
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| RedMosquito United States. May 28 2012 00:25. Posts 277 | Profile # |
On May 27 2012 23:31 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 23:25 RedMosquito wrote:
i think the problem is the medivac. If you think about it the medivac coupled with bio and stim is what makes terran so strong in midgame and early game. This is why blizzard made t3 weak for terran.They designed t v x for terran to be aggressive and for x to turtle until late game. The problem is that now people are so good at turtling that midgame terran isn't so scary any more and people can just win once they get 3 bases up.
I rather see a game where no race has a clear advantage at any point. It would be nice to see other races play aggressive cuz theyre afraid of t late game for once.
You can think that, but that doesn't account for the PURE MARINE builds that also work. The problem is, has, and according to blizzard, always will be the Marine.
Yeah the marine is probably too strong but speedlings off of mass larva inject in one control group are too. I think in general t1 units are just maybe too strong in this game. I was watching some broodwar in pro league the other day and i was noticing how so few t1 units were made. It was very exciting watching two base carrier against 3 base mech. Powerful uber units with micro potential are the shit.
The thing is i dont think anything can be changed at this point. Blizzard isn't going to just remove the medivac or nerf the marine. I think a better solution would too just buff t3 units that need buffing like the bc. Have every race be close to balanced at every stage of the game. That way a player regardless of his race might think about being aggressive rather than just turtle to late game and make 20 broodlords ect.
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| StarBrift Sweden. May 28 2012 00:27. Posts 1668 | Profile # |
On May 28 2012 00:23 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
Sorry, but if a marine terran can defeat a bane/infestor zerg, then it's not because the marine is imbalanced, but it's because the terran just outplayed the zerg hard! Microing perfectly, you might pull something as you described, but do you know how incredibly hard it is to do that? If the terran can do that while macroing toe-on-toe with the zerg, then the zerg is simply being outplayed.
No micro in this game can be considered "incredibly hard". Incredibly hard is stuff like multitasking at a top pro level. All types of micro can be learned in a micro trainer in under a day. That's not what I call incredibly hard. |
| | Jaedong asks you 'how do you practice and what mentality do you keep during your games?' Flash: Well, I just practice really hard. And during games I think "LOL U CANT BEAT ME" keke | |
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| s3rp Germany. May 28 2012 00:29. Posts 2767 | Profile # |
On May 28 2012 00:27 StarBrift wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:23 JustPassingBy wrote:
On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
Sorry, but if a marine terran can defeat a bane/infestor zerg, then it's not because the marine is imbalanced, but it's because the terran just outplayed the zerg hard! Microing perfectly, you might pull something as you described, but do you know how incredibly hard it is to do that? If the terran can do that while macroing toe-on-toe with the zerg, then the zerg is simply being outplayed.
No micro in this game can be considered "incredibly hard". Incredibly hard is stuff like multitasking at a top pro level. All types of micro can be learned in a micro trainer in under a day. That's not what I call incredibly hard.
Microing perfectly while at least kind of keeping up with your macro cannot be learned easily not even close. |
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| ACrow Germany. May 28 2012 00:35. Posts 3157 | Profile # |
On May 28 2012 00:27 StarBrift wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:23 JustPassingBy wrote:
On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
Sorry, but if a marine terran can defeat a bane/infestor zerg, then it's not because the marine is imbalanced, but it's because the terran just outplayed the zerg hard! Microing perfectly, you might pull something as you described, but do you know how incredibly hard it is to do that? If the terran can do that while macroing toe-on-toe with the zerg, then the zerg is simply being outplayed.
No micro in this game can be considered "incredibly hard". Incredibly hard is stuff like multitasking at a top pro level. All types of micro can be learned in a micro trainer in under a day. That's not what I call incredibly hard.
I don't believe you played/watched much SC2. |
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| Shiori May 28 2012 00:40. Posts 2815 | Profile Blog # |
On May 28 2012 00:27 StarBrift wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:23 JustPassingBy wrote:
On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
Sorry, but if a marine terran can defeat a bane/infestor zerg, then it's not because the marine is imbalanced, but it's because the terran just outplayed the zerg hard! Microing perfectly, you might pull something as you described, but do you know how incredibly hard it is to do that? If the terran can do that while macroing toe-on-toe with the zerg, then the zerg is simply being outplayed.
No micro in this game can be considered "incredibly hard". Incredibly hard is stuff like multitasking at a top pro level. All types of micro can be learned in a micro trainer in under a day. That's not what I call incredibly hard.
Beating a decent Zerg player who's on Baneling/Infestor/Ling with pure Marines is next to impossible. |
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| SKYFISH_ Bulgaria. May 28 2012 00:46. Posts 611 | Profile # |
On May 28 2012 00:27 StarBrift wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:23 JustPassingBy wrote:
On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
Sorry, but if a marine terran can defeat a bane/infestor zerg, then it's not because the marine is imbalanced, but it's because the terran just outplayed the zerg hard! Microing perfectly, you might pull something as you described, but do you know how incredibly hard it is to do that? If the terran can do that while macroing toe-on-toe with the zerg, then the zerg is simply being outplayed.
No micro in this game can be considered "incredibly hard". Incredibly hard is stuff like multitasking at a top pro level. All types of micro can be learned in a micro trainer in under a day. That's not what I call incredibly hard.
i would say that splitting your marines against fungal/blings is incredibly hard when compared to splitting your banes and moving them into the marines, but hey man, if it aint BW IT AINT HARD RIGHT?
cant wait to laugh at your elitist BW asses once your demi-god players switch out completely only to get dismantled in regular SC2 tournes
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| | In Soviet Terranistan you rush the Zerg |  |
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| StarBrift Sweden. May 28 2012 00:47. Posts 1668 | Profile # |
On May 28 2012 00:35 ACrow wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:27 StarBrift wrote:
On May 28 2012 00:23 JustPassingBy wrote:
On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
Sorry, but if a marine terran can defeat a bane/infestor zerg, then it's not because the marine is imbalanced, but it's because the terran just outplayed the zerg hard! Microing perfectly, you might pull something as you described, but do you know how incredibly hard it is to do that? If the terran can do that while macroing toe-on-toe with the zerg, then the zerg is simply being outplayed.
No micro in this game can be considered "incredibly hard". Incredibly hard is stuff like multitasking at a top pro level. All types of micro can be learned in a micro trainer in under a day. That's not what I call incredibly hard.
I don't believe you played/watched much SC2.
I'm top masters on europe and I've played maybe 5k+ games in sc2 so far. If you truly think micro in itself is impressive then you are some kind of gold level fanboy that doesn't realise how incredibly easy it is to learn if you just have proper mouse speeds and such.
My point was about micro in itself being incredibly easy to learn. Ther fact that you have to go back to your base to make stuff doesn't make the actual micro harder. Micro is super easy. Multitasking is hard. |
| | Jaedong asks you 'how do you practice and what mentality do you keep during your games?' Flash: Well, I just practice really hard. And during games I think "LOL U CANT BEAT ME" keke | |
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 XxJuicexX United States. May 28 2012 00:52. Posts 48 | Profile # |
| I think you guys need to stop bitching and wait for the expansions before crying. |
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| StarBrift Sweden. May 28 2012 00:53. Posts 1668 | Profile # |
On May 28 2012 00:46 SKYFISH_ wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:27 StarBrift wrote:
On May 28 2012 00:23 JustPassingBy wrote:
On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
Sorry, but if a marine terran can defeat a bane/infestor zerg, then it's not because the marine is imbalanced, but it's because the terran just outplayed the zerg hard! Microing perfectly, you might pull something as you described, but do you know how incredibly hard it is to do that? If the terran can do that while macroing toe-on-toe with the zerg, then the zerg is simply being outplayed.
No micro in this game can be considered "incredibly hard". Incredibly hard is stuff like multitasking at a top pro level. All types of micro can be learned in a micro trainer in under a day. That's not what I call incredibly hard.
i would say that splitting your marines against fungal/blings is incredibly hard when compared to splitting your banes and moving them into the marines, but hey man, if it aint BW IT AINT HARD RIGHT? cant wait to laugh at your elitist BW asses once your demi-god players switch out completely only to get dismantled in regular SC2 tournes
Haven't mentioned BW in any capacity. You really have some hate for other games. Please try to keep the discussion to sc2 if you want it to be relevant. My statement is that anything that can be learned in a day or two can not be considered hard. Micro is the flashy stuff that is the only thing low level players understand so they equate it with skill. In fact it's just another part of mechanics and not by far the hardest one. |
| | Jaedong asks you 'how do you practice and what mentality do you keep during your games?' Flash: Well, I just practice really hard. And during games I think "LOL U CANT BEAT ME" keke | |
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| Affluenza United Kingdom. May 28 2012 00:55. Posts 213 | Profile # |
I remember when Blizzard was playing around with a marine 10% dps nerf...
I wonder if they will consider it in future... |
| | My children, the hour of our victory is at hand. For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect. |  |
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| SKYFISH_ Bulgaria. May 28 2012 00:57. Posts 611 | Profile # |
then you have successfully baited me, i congratulate you.
because it is only at the highest level where you see marines countering banelings successfully, and only by a handful of terrans, which means you're contradicting yourself in your original post, i.e. intentional logical fallacy
well done
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| | In Soviet Terranistan you rush the Zerg | |
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| Reval United Kingdom. May 28 2012 00:59. Posts 163 | Profile # |
On May 28 2012 00:15 david0925 wrote:
I'm actually grateful they removed the Tempest and Replicant (assuming this is true).
Those 2 are really, really gimmicky units that serve very, very niche roles. This is not healthy for any RTS, even for ones as diverse as Starcraft.
And yes, as with many other Protoss Players, I am more than willing to sacrifice some kind of late game advantage for early units that I can micromanage against other races before the deathball comes out. I also think they need to review movement-impairing effects such as Force Field, Fungal Growth, and Concussive Shell.
I was always undecided about the tempest but i'm really glad the replicant is gone. It just didn't feel like a protoss unit at all. You could literally change the aesthetics of the unit and it could be either of the other 2 race's unit |
| | Nevuh sin a wurg jun snuh? |
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| s3rp Germany. May 28 2012 01:00. Posts 2767 | Profile # |
On May 28 2012 00:55 Affluenza wrote:
I remember when Blizzard was playing around with a marine 10% dps nerf...
I wonder if they will consider it in future...
I hope not if the solution is buffing the tank because that would make TvT once a again a giant pain in the ass. Its annoying as is right now once one or both side have 10+ tanks but if they makee tanks as strong as they had been in beta and the beginning of the game TvT will once against be tank/viking only and suck as hell.Last edit: 2012-05-28 01:01:17 |
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| dgwow Canada. May 28 2012 01:05. Posts 762 | Profile # |
On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
I don't want to bring up a BW vs SC2 debate but honestly in BW every race had units like this, this was part of the fact that BW was so exciting to watch. Hopefully Blizzard will get more units that do crazy damage when managed properly =)
Last edit: 2012-05-28 01:06:21 |
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