Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Chat
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web ClientTeamSpeak 3 (101 users) | |
|
| EvilZergling United States. May 11 2012 08:15. Posts 133 | Profile # |
Hi TL,
I'm having some serious problems against protoss players lately. My W:L ratio is still higher than 50% right now but for the life of me I cannot beat a protoss who goes heavy into splash damage.
I understand to counter this type of style I really need to be getting ghost(s) out in considerable numbers but storm is feeling really overpowered to me.
Please don't get me wrong I did not come here to whine about storm and cry op but I'm feeling really discouraged by what I have been seeing lately.
Can anyone please review my replay and help provide some advice or benchmarks on when I need X generally? X being ghosts or a specific upgrade or something? After reviewing the replay myself several times, I feel as though I was ahead most of the game until I forgot to research 3/3; Yet, the protoss was sitting at 0/0 while I was at 2/2.
Anyway, there are several reasons as so why I think I should have won this game but I came here for an outside opinion and different perspectives.
Please let me know what you think, I really appreciate it, thank you.
http://drop.sc/176257
For reference, I am currently around 15th Diamond, demoted recently from lack of play while my opponent is 20th master.
-Thank you again |
|
|
| zmansman17 United States. May 11 2012 08:49. Posts 2181 | Profile # |
A good way to improve is to look at the latest GSL videos for IMMVP v. Parting. The build he used is a varation of MKP's 1 rax FE, and is generally provides a strong timing that will deal with AoE, or splash damage.
But one big tip is that if you are able to scout or scan a robo and a robotics bay is to only produce 2 medivacs (to use for your first +1 stim push) and then to produce exclusively vikings unless you have reason to believe the Protoss has stopped Collosi production and is going for HT tech.
This is very important because fast Collosi builds are very strong if you are not prepared for them. In this case, you will need vikings in order to keep a strong army that can compete with the Protoss army.
If the Protoss goes for HT, and you do not scout or scan robotics bay, of course there is no need to produce vikings. Indeed, you will need more medivacs. However, this first +1 stim push should be especially effective if you micro properly. Try to move in and prompt storms, or use the usual tactic to lift 8 marines in 1 medivac in the fog of war on the fringes of the Protoss base and move command to their main mineral line.
Shortly after the moment where your units first fire on your opponent's workers, stim your army up the ramp (as soon as he has divided his army to deal with the drop) and pick off or trade evenly for sentries, HT, collosi, whatever remains. This is a great way to reduce or eliminate those high gas or AoE units. And if you can, save your medivac from the main.
The other option if they go for an HT opener instead of a traditional collosi opener is to feign pressure, but drop a 3rd base and a ghost academy. In the meantime, pick off pylons on the side of their base via vision of medivac. If you can drop, do so, but don't expect much damage. The threat of dropping in this instance is stronger than the actual act. In the meantime, get your 3rd base relatively saturated, but don't over produce workers if you are certain that you have contained Protoss on 2 base, then you most likely want to cap workers at at most 16 on your 3rd.
Again, these are some general and some specific tips for TvP, which is very hard at the current moment. Good luck! |
| | ♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞ |
|
|
| kuroshiroi May 11 2012 09:03. Posts 3149 | Profile # |
I watched the replay. I don't have any fresh perspectives for you for TvP but I have a noticed quite a few odd decisions from you.
Anyway, your P opponent told you the main reason for why you lost, you finished 3-3 at 30 mins. P had 2-2 before you had 2-2, so I'm not sure what you mean by "Yet, the protoss was sitting at 0/0 while I was at 2/2." You had 1-1 earlier but the P got 2-2 a good 2 minutes before you did.
In addition to that, you made around 7 tanks during the game, lost them all and then got siege. You severely overmade marauders for the entire game, (marauders have around the same DPS against zealots and archons as a marine at twice the cost), I'm guessing you were trying to "hard counter" the HT?
You didn't use your mules for long periods of time and you had 80! SCVs at one point. You need maybe 60 SCVs, max, otherwise your army will be too small. Your midgame macro had small issues too, you should have made more rax sooner and (this is just a personal preference) you should have gotten two reactors and 1 tech lab for your first 3 rax. You also had 4 marines in a bunker during your first engagement, no clue why you left them behind 
Your initial engagement at the Ps third went extremely well with some nice positional micro but you should have killed the nexus instead of the colossus. You had 48 SCVs at 10 mins, which means you probably didn't miss any, so your early game macro is pretty much perfect. Maybe you should try being a little greedier though, make 3 rax before bunker, CC before second depot, that sort of stuff |
| |
|
| EvilZergling United States. May 11 2012 09:12. Posts 133 | Profile # |
Thank you for the responses. I was mixing in tanks mainly for added dps and didn't plan on ever getting seige until I figured what the heck, I feel ahead, let's get this.
There were a few micro situations in which I feel I really messed up and I'm glad you pointed one out. When I had the chance to kill the 3rd base I shifted focus to the colossus once I saw it and that was probably a mistake.
Another situation is when I happened to emp his large ht ball and he immediately morphed them all into archons with very little support behind it. The upgrades in combination with having never seen that before really threw me for a loop and I could not decide whether to focus the archons morphing or to focus the stalker and immortal behind them so I wasted a bunch of time and then it was too late.
I guess I'll just have to keep working on it but, at the point in which I lost something like 100-150 supply worth of army due to getting cornered and storms raining down on me was really a hard blow to deal with.
As for zmansman17, I really appreciate your response and although some of it is helpful none of it related to my replay and I am assuming you didn't even look at it. I don't fault you as you have nothing to gain by watching it but I'm looking for advice specific to the situation in which I was in. Regardless, thank you for taking the time to respond. |
|
|
| kuroshiroi May 11 2012 09:41. Posts 3149 | Profile # |
Siege tanks have 14.42 DPS against zealots, stim marines have 10.53. So, 2 marines are way better than 1 siege tank against zealots. If he had made any stalkers, the siege tanks would have been a decent choice, they're comparable to marauders. Almost. Anyway, a good rule of thumb is a ratio of 2:1 for marines:marauders.
If you had more marines when he made all those archons, you might have cleaned them up. 3-3 would have helped too.
And yeah, that last part of the replay was hard to watch for me too, storm OP, yo. |
| |
|
| naastyOne May 12 2012 14:42. Posts 444 | Profile # |
On May 11 2012 09:41 kuroshiroi wrote:
Siege tanks have 14.42 DPS against zealots, stim marines have 10.53. So, 2 marines are way better than 1 siege tank against zealots.
Factor in splash and inability to storm tanks as easy as marines.. |
|
|
| yep Canada. May 12 2012 15:49. Posts 7 | Profile # |
I watched the replay and I think the main issue was your ghosts. The P at a specific moment in the game had like 12 HT and 6 archons. If he has that many HT/archon get a ton of ghosts cloak them, snipe every HT and emp all his archons and his army will just melt. I have no idea how many you need, but you can easily get around 12 ghosts or even more in this situation. During a lot of fights thoughout the game you mostly 1a stim your whole army and got nailed by storms because your whole army was clumped. I think that if you would have split your whole army while you 1a stim you could have had some units left in some of the battles.
You dropped him only once during the game and if you would have dropped like 2 or 3 medivacs full of marines in his main, I think it would have done a lot of damage because his army was mostly in the center of the map way out of position during the whole game and he didn't even had a HT ready to feedback medivacs. For more advice on when to drop in TvP I suggess you look at Day[9] dSelect vs Vile_State loooong TvP in which he explains quite well when to drop.
I think you moved your vikings pretty damn well when he had colossus and did a good job of killing them before the battles occured. You should see your ghosts vs HT the same way you see your vikings vs colossus. So you should be cloaking them and sniping HT because as you saw, if you emp them all, they just morph into archon and you still die if you don't have enough emp left to emp the morphed archons.
Another thing I would like to point out is when you are just sitting back in your base waiting to get maxed again and attack him don't just clump them all at your rally set point, go to the tower (on this map) and make a good arc in case he comes and attack you. This is specially good when P has a lot of HT. It will just be a little easier when he attacks you cause you'll have less micro to do since your army will already be spreed.
Last thing is if you see he isn't getting anymore colossus, make use of your vikings and try to land them in his main to kill anything. Or you could land them at his 3rd while you drop his main and then attack while he is out of position and then position your army in front of his base with a good concave and ready to snipe/emp his army. |
| | Un pour tous et tous pour un |
|
|
| EvilZergling United States. May 14 2012 04:17. Posts 133 | Profile # |
@Yep, very awesome response man thank you so much for the feedback. I'll have to be more proactive about dropping. I'm normally afraid to drop sometimes because I don't want to make my main army that much weaker from the missing units but that's a wrong way of thinking about it.
-Thank you |
|
|
 superbarnie United States. May 14 2012 10:47. Posts 280 | Profile # |
On May 12 2012 14:42 naastyOne wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 09:41 kuroshiroi wrote:
Siege tanks have 14.42 DPS against zealots, stim marines have 10.53. So, 2 marines are way better than 1 siege tank against zealots.
Factor in splash and inability to storm tanks as easy as marines..
The 14.4 dps is seige tanks in mobile mode. Tanks are actually really good to storm when they are in seige mode because they cant move. |
| | Zerg OP | CreansRNub | k-Poop | Zerg OP | Sea lions | \\m// |
|
|
| yoona2012 Denmark. May 14 2012 11:25. Posts 196 | Profile # |
On May 11 2012 08:49 zmansman17 wrote:
But one big tip is that if you are able to scout or scan a robo and a robotics bay is to only produce 2 medivacs (to use for your first +1 stim push) and then to produce exclusively vikings unless you have reason to believe the Protoss has stopped Collosi production and is going for HT tech.
This is not true. A single colossi can very easily be dealt with by a nice spread, same goes for a small number of ht´s that arent full energy yet.
When you initially scout robotics bay or colossi, then you should throw down a 2nd starport rather than just make vikings nonstop till you dont see any more colossi. You should only start viking production after at least 2 colossi is spotted and not make more than 5-6 vikings MAX unless you know/sense more than 2 colossi will come out on the field. When the 2nd starport finishes you should throw down a ghost academy (or even 2) immediately - regardless of you see templars or not.
Often a protoss will be satisfied with 2-3 colossi and then start templar production and spend the rest of the minerals on chargelots - this is why it´s better to underproduce vikings rather than overproduce and 2 reactored starports will give you enough vikings to deal with 2-3 colossi very fast. Even if you get surprised by 2 colossi and have no vikings out, it will only take you 42 ingame seconds to crank out 4 and this is usually long enough if you didn´t just sit in your base but have your army (early-midgame 9-12ish minute mark) out on the field putting preassure on and threathening drops. Simply fall back, crank out the vikings and resume agression and threath to drop. It is alot harder to deal with alot of templars, because ghosts 1) need the academy to be built, 2) gateways can warp in a high templar count fast vs 1 robo chronoing out colossi, 3) colossi cant reinforce by warpin and 4) ghosts preferably needs energy upgrade to be done before the first ghost pop and in best case cloak as well.
In any case, you want to keep tabs on the protoss combosition regulary and pokes, drops and scans should give you enough time to prepare and not overcommit to vikings or be caught completely unaware by 3+ colossi.Last edit: 2012-05-14 11:27:57 |
|
|
| antz0r Australia. May 14 2012 13:24. Posts 168 | Profile # |
From some brief observations..
1. tanks?! - the only way I could see them being useful is if you held the high ground on the right base with those tanks shelling the stalkers/collossi.. but you never got to that.
2. You had several engagements near the north watchtower where it looked like you were completely unprepared. Maybe have the vikings lead a little bit rather than balling it all up 1A style.
3. So many zealots, too many marauders. What the other guys say above.
4. It's really annoying when you emp the shit out of their templar, and then they just make full strength archons out of it. However I think the main problem in that lategame scenario is just the same thing that's happening with every tvp atm.. lategame macro + micro for terran is super hard so you just weren't keeping up with it.
5. Your third doesn't need to be floated to its location. You're attacking him, he needs all that he can to deal with it. Take the risk and the reward is a much faster operational third. If you have the money to instantly make a 4th and 5th base... then your macro is being neglected at the expense of those fancy manoeuvres at his third. There must be some 'timing gaps' in your microing where you can quickly make more stuff- or use camera hotkeys or unit hotkeys to quickly go home, macro, and go back to the engagement (easy to say, hard to do).
6. Upgrades- as other people stated
7. Maybe take the fourth gas at your natural a bit earlier to help pump upgrades and either medivacs or vikings. I used to only take 3 gas but I'm a fan of having 4 operational at 10minutes now.
8. I'm a scrub so take this advice with a grain of salt.
9. [edit] Also, have you read this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=335051Last edit: 2012-05-14 13:37:02 |
|
|
| ][Primarch][ Sweden. May 14 2012 14:51. Posts 302 | Profile # |
Hello there, just to make you "feel better" all of us have the same problem vs Protoss all the way up to Code S. If you miss one HT and get hit by a storm chances are big that your bio army will just roll over and die, especially if you go marine-heavy which many of us must because marauders are pretty useless vs the chargelot +3 armor heavy armies who refuses to die.
My tip would be to watch Polt's stream or VODs and watch his MMM pressure which hits before any splash, drop the main, stim into the natural, rally your production to where the fighting takes place and never stop to attack, also constant production, if there are no collosi, never stop making medivacs, go up to 10 medivacs if you need to, medivacs are awesome during the early and midgame.
We will obviously not be close to doing the pressure close to his level but hey at least we can try. |
| | Huge fan of Empire Kas, The Destroyer of Worlds, The Machine, The Second Terminator, The Supreme Robot! |
|
|
| | |
|
|
|
| |
|
Sidebar Settings...
|
Store
