 Leth0 May 12 2012 08:02. Posts 856 | Profile # |
It's a little early to start speaking in absolutes isn't it?
To say something as broad sweeping as 'You simply 'can't' do damage to zerg early game because queens have 2 extra range"?
I'm sure in the coming weeks of play we will all see how false that is. |
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| GrassEater Sweden. May 12 2012 08:03. Posts 416 | Profile # |
On May 12 2012 07:45 Gentso wrote:
Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.
He is an pro gamer and you are not. |
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| MorroW Sweden. May 12 2012 08:03. Posts 3415 | Profile # |
zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well.
its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore.
terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further.
if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting.
if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking.
zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal |
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| Belha Italy. May 12 2012 08:04. Posts 2367 | Profile # |
The buff is another stupid change that try to cover a shitload of mistakes in base design. As a P i noticed the same that TT1 states.
I'm not aganist a buff (overlord buff is fair). But the queen buff is stupid cose it fucks one of the few smartest things about PvZ which is controling the "sac units for drone production" early game stuff.
Btw, i understand the hellion map-control and blinding the z issue. But as many others, this is another design misstep to cover the crap istead of fixing it.
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| Flonomenalz Nigeria. May 12 2012 08:04. Posts 2863 | Profile # |
Umm, if you do a simple zealot pressure, and you see 4-5 queens, you walk away and take a third base... if Zerg delays tech so much to get a bunch of queens out, roach speed will not be done in time to deny the third base with the initial 160 food push a la Stephano (which initially kills the third, and then about a minute later Stephano is maxed).
My god, people act like we just make 5 queens for free without taking drone cuts or delaying tech... |
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| Leth0 May 12 2012 08:04. Posts 856 | Profile # |
On May 12 2012 08:03 GrassEater wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:45 Gentso wrote:
Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.
He is an pro gamer and you are not.
He's a pro gamer so what?
He is immune to being wrong now?
Would be pretty complicated if no pro's could ever be wrong about anything considering they all say the exact opposite shit as one another. |
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| JOJOsc2news May 12 2012 08:04. Posts 2999 | Profile Blog # |
On May 12 2012 07:54 McFeser wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:46 mTwTT1 wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:40 GizmoPT wrote:
isnt the range buff only in ground ?
yes but by making queens u have an anti counter to both ground + air builds now, queens are tanky units so u can have them absorb all the zealot shots while surrounding them with ur lings, also by having that many queens zerg's can start creep spreading insanely fast aswell, engaging on creep is suicide =/
Could you cut off the lings and queens using force fields? I'd imagine if you seperate them they would be pretty easy to take on.
If you have too many sentries for early pressure you won't have enough fire power to actually deal damage to the queens. You'd also have to micro the sentries so far back to prevent them from dying that they wouldn't do any damage at all and any kind of damage and tanking is important for Protoss with early attacks. Every unit counts at that stage. TT1 really has a point here.
Also, creep spread pretty much negates any early pressure relying on force fields.
I am worried for PvZ.Last edit: 2012-05-12 08:06:05 |
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| Mvrio May 12 2012 08:05. Posts 600 | Profile # |
| so since the 5 range attack is for ground and she "shoots" on ground, is it considered +1 on ranged attack from the evo or still on melee, cuz most ranged zerg units have a ranged shot and animation while having an up close attack n animation i.e Roach acid but up close its swipes with his claws |
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| ThePlayer33 Australia. May 12 2012 08:05. Posts 2377 | Profile # |
| Queen is now stupidly op is ZvZ. no joke. |
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| Leth0 May 12 2012 08:05. Posts 856 | Profile # |
| If you are making that many queens that early then you ARE sacrificing drone production in order to do so, queens are not free. |
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| Flonomenalz Nigeria. May 12 2012 08:06. Posts 2863 | Profile # |
On May 12 2012 08:03 MorroW wrote:
zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well.
its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore.
terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further.
if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting.
if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking.
zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal
stop posting and go stream morrow! =)
nice post. |
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| IshinShishi Japan. May 12 2012 08:06. Posts 3433 | Profile # |
| I think the main problem is in TvZ , all of my hellion openings seem to be useless (same goes for forgg, he was losing to multiple jackthejoe random NA highmaster in a row), and banshee openings are also harder to do because zergs tend to have more queens since they work so well vs both low marine counts and hellions. |
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| Bensio United Kingdom. May 12 2012 08:06. Posts 620 | Profile Blog # |
On May 12 2012 08:05 Mvrio wrote:
so since the 5 range attack is for ground and she "shoots" on ground, is it considered +1 on ranged attack from the evo or still on melee, cuz most ranged zerg units have a ranged shot and animation while having an up close attack n animation i.e Roach acid but up close its swipes with his claws
Queens always benefit from Range, before the patch and after. |
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| Resistentialism Canada. May 12 2012 08:06. Posts 684 | Profile Blog # |
| Queens always do a ranged attack. Going by liquipedia anyways. Roach and hydra melee attacks bypass guardian shield but still always benefit from ranged upgrades, if you're looking for an interesting tidbit. If they're wrong then I'm wrong here, of course. Last edit: 2012-05-12 08:07:49 |
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| SolidMoose United States. May 12 2012 08:07. Posts 1111 | Profile # |
On May 12 2012 08:05 Mvrio wrote:
so since the 5 range attack is for ground and she "shoots" on ground, is it considered +1 on ranged attack from the evo or still on melee, cuz most ranged zerg units have a ranged shot and animation while having an up close attack n animation i.e Roach acid but up close its swipes with his claws
The queen melee was always buffed by ranged attack. |
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| Resistentialism Canada. May 12 2012 08:09. Posts 684 | Profile Blog # |
| I'd love to hear what the progamers think it will do to +1 zealot pressure. The range change and also the unmentioned change where apparently they are better at stutter stepping, now. |
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| GrassEater Sweden. May 12 2012 08:11. Posts 416 | Profile # |
On May 12 2012 08:04 Leth0 wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 08:03 GrassEater wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:45 Gentso wrote:
Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.
He is an pro gamer and you are not.
He's a pro gamer so what? He is immune to being wrong now? Would be pretty complicated if no pro's could ever be wrong about anything considering they all say the exact opposite shit as one another.
Read what i responded to plz. |
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| TheKefka Croatia. May 12 2012 08:12. Posts 8119 | Profile Blog # |
| nvm misunderstood the op Last edit: 2012-05-12 08:39:06 |
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| Gentso United States. May 12 2012 08:13. Posts 1109 | Profile # |
On May 12 2012 08:11 GrassEater wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 08:04 Leth0 wrote:
On May 12 2012 08:03 GrassEater wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:45 Gentso wrote:
Forge expanding or fast expanding in general will never mean early pressure. It's hard to take balance discussion seriously from someone who doesn't win tournaments or at least come close. Sorry mate, leave it to the top pros to figure it out for you.
He is an pro gamer and you are not.
He's a pro gamer so what? He is immune to being wrong now? Would be pretty complicated if no pro's could ever be wrong about anything considering they all say the exact opposite shit as one another.
Read what i responded to plz.
You should read what you responded to. I said leave it to the top pros to figure it out. Did I say I was a top pro? Did I make any generalizations or statements in regards to balance? Nope! I just feel like there's a good number of low tier pro gamers that don't do much but whine and look for excuses. It used to be BW was the better game but I think they've gotten over that by now.
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| castled United States. May 12 2012 08:13. Posts 287 | Profile # |
On May 12 2012 08:03 MorroW wrote:+ Show Spoiler +zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well.
its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore.
terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further.
if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting.
if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking.
zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal
A fair analysis 
looking forward to seeing what T pros come up with... without hellions being able to delay the third as long or force roaches, TvZ macro games do seem like they'll be way harder now. |
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