Hi guys! This is my first topic on TL hence be more patient to my questions that might seem strange
Currently i have problems with my PvP and i suspect this is because my knowledge about build orders is really poor. For example if i know that opponent is going to DT expand i dont know how to react expand myself or try to punish him with reaver. Also i dont know which build have advantages over others for example if i place my robo before second gate will i be in a better position than opponent who 2 gates first. Robo before singularity - are differences significant? Neither i know counter builds. There are many examples. Liquipedia did not help me much.
So i kindly ask TL broodwar community to help me with my PvP openings and explain me features of this match up
Watch some NoNy FPVods on youtube to get a good understanding of quite a few BOs. One big influence on who wins any PvP is micro. Whether it be a couple zeals fighting on Blood Bath, some goon/reaver micro on Python, or even some nice proxy wars on Destination. Micro skills make this MU pretty fun(for me anyways). But you can't let up on macro. Also, it would be much easier to give feedback if you had a replay or 2 so we can look at it and tell you what it is you can improve on both strategically and in macro/micro. Preferably upload to repdepot.net
Last edit: 2012-05-13 16:24:03
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One of his questions is actually something that I've wondered too.
If you open reavers and he did dt expand, how do you react? Do you wait until your reaver comes out to attack, or do you just attack with the current army and cancel reavers in favor of observers?
Since we cannot change reality, let us change the eyes which see reality.
FlaShFTW United States. May 14 2012 07:49. Posts 4963
if you look to get even on economy, then harassment and cannon sniping is the way to go. Normally for DT expand, he will not have a lot of goons. If you can get a lot of probe kills or make him lose mining time significantly, then you should be quite even. He will not have a strong probe count yet because he will need to rush for templars with storm.
for maps where your natural is on low ground and main on high ground like fs and python, then you should go for robo before second gate. only for maps like say longinus or more recent maps like jade where your natural is on the same level as your main or in jade's case, nat higher than main, then the 2 gate before robo has a chance to catch him off guard. the idea is to attack with 5 dragoons and 2 zealots. he will be behind on 2 goons. Here you will need micro as well to maximise your chances. for beginning players, its almost always safer to just go for a robo before gate.
robo before range implies that you want to rush for reavers. which in pvp, he will already have goons. even if his probe is in your base, you have no choice but to carry on that strategy if not the timing itself will be compromised. and this would allow him to prepare appropriately.
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The proper reaction against a DT build is to stop your Reaver tech and go for Templar Tech and subsequently quick High Templar drops. Against most iCCup Protoss players you can instead use a Dark Templar drop and basically win the game because hardly any players on iCCup understand the strategy and therefore follow up the Dark Templars with attempted aggressiveness rather than producing a Robotics. Its probably because these players are just bad, and therefore use the DT opening in hopes their opponent doesn't get detection and they straight out win the game and if they don't win the game with the DT they can get a blind timing in to win the game rather than attempting to win the game strategically. The psychological aspects are not that important however, rather use your Observer to see if your opponent is terrible (and therefore adding Gateways instead of getting a Robotics). If he is doing this..simply drop two Dark Templars in the main. If your opponent knows the DT build and therefore follows up with a Robotics, use the storm drops.
Sources:
(Mini actually got Reavers but he still follows up with harassment which backs up my statement regarding the importance of DT harass vs incompetent players or HT harass vs other players).
If you look through additional professional games you can see more examples of the Templar tech followup. Unfortunately, Templar based builds have not been too common recently in professional matches due to the high number of Dragoon heavy builds that are strong on the recent proleague map pool.
olabaz United States. May 14 2012 09:57. Posts 186
In a recent ISL match between Defi and Semih, Defi opened up 1 gate DT which got scouted by Semih who went 2 gate goon robo. By scouting it, he threw down an earlier nexus than Defi since he had more units and just went obs into quick citadel.
On May 14 2012 09:36 tryummm wrote: The proper reaction against a DT build is to stop your Reaver tech and go for Templar Tech and subsequently quick High Templar drops. Against most iCCup Protoss players you can instead use a Dark Templar drop and basically win the game because hardly any players on iCCup understand the strategy and therefore follow up the Dark Templars with attempted aggressiveness rather than producing a Robotics. Its probably because these players are just bad, and therefore use the DT opening in hopes their opponent doesn't get detection and they straight out win the game and if they don't win the game with the DT they can get a blind timing in to win the game rather than attempting to win the game strategically. The psychological aspects are not that important however, rather use your Observer to see if your opponent is terrible (and therefore adding Gateways instead of getting a Robotics). If he is doing this..simply drop two Dark Templars in the main. If your opponent knows the DT build and therefore follows up with a Robotics, use the storm drops.
Sources:
(Mini actually got Reavers but he still follows up with harassment which backs up my statement regarding the importance of DT harass vs incompetent players or HT harass vs other players).
If you look through additional professional games you can see more examples of the Templar tech followup. Unfortunately, Templar based builds have not been too common recently in professional matches due to the high number of Dragoon heavy builds that are strong on the recent proleague map pool.
Wouldn't the proper reaction to DT build would be to NOT go for templar tech, seeing as how continuing reaver tech will get you robotics facility which you can quickly build observatory and pop out an observer real quick? What good would going templar tech do?
olabaz United States. May 14 2012 10:52. Posts 186
Wouldn't the proper reaction to DT build would be to NOT go for templar tech, seeing as how continuing reaver tech will get you robotics facility which you can quickly build observatory and pop out an observer real quick? What good would going templar tech do?
You keep robo and obviously get obs first but skip reaver since he'll have storm early and storm > reavers.
PvP for me means 1 gate robo into 3 gate obs, it's safe and counters most PvP in D rank because they freaken love DTs. If i scout them with robo and going reebo, i just spread obs around edge of base and killu their shuttle when they try and harass.
Last edit: 2012-05-14 13:41:48
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On May 14 2012 09:36 tryummm wrote: The proper reaction against a DT build is to stop your Reaver tech and go for Templar Tech and subsequently quick High Templar drops. Against most iCCup Protoss players you can instead use a Dark Templar drop and basically win the game because hardly any players on iCCup understand the strategy and therefore follow up the Dark Templars with attempted aggressiveness rather than producing a Robotics. Its probably because these players are just bad, and therefore use the DT opening in hopes their opponent doesn't get detection and they straight out win the game and if they don't win the game with the DT they can get a blind timing in to win the game rather than attempting to win the game strategically. The psychological aspects are not that important however, rather use your Observer to see if your opponent is terrible (and therefore adding Gateways instead of getting a Robotics). If he is doing this..simply drop two Dark Templars in the main. If your opponent knows the DT build and therefore follows up with a Robotics, use the storm drops.
Sources:
(Mini actually got Reavers but he still follows up with harassment which backs up my statement regarding the importance of DT harass vs incompetent players or HT harass vs other players).
If you look through additional professional games you can see more examples of the Templar tech followup. Unfortunately, Templar based builds have not been too common recently in professional matches due to the high number of Dragoon heavy builds that are strong on the recent proleague map pool.
Wouldn't the proper reaction to DT build would be to NOT go for templar tech, seeing as how continuing reaver tech will get you robotics facility which you can quickly build observatory and pop out an observer real quick? What good would going templar tech do?
You still get the Observer, but then you follow up with a Citadel and then an Archives rather than a Reaver. In an older game Jangbi displayed why going for Reavers is a bad idea. A DT build follows up with HT for storm. This makes a timing attack with Reavers obsolete since storms can counter Reavers pretty easily, especially in situations where Reavers are necessary to break a Cannon line. Its also easier to go for harassment oriented play with High Templar drops rather than relying on Reavers, since scarabs take longer to activate, have less range, and sometimes dud. If you consistently watch professional games it will become apparent switching to templar tech rather than getting Reaver tech after getting Observers is the most common counter to a DT build.
On May 14 2012 09:36 tryummm wrote: The proper reaction against a DT build is to stop your Reaver tech and go for Templar Tech and subsequently quick High Templar drops. Against most iCCup Protoss players you can instead use a Dark Templar drop and basically win the game because hardly any players on iCCup understand the strategy and therefore follow up the Dark Templars with attempted aggressiveness rather than producing a Robotics. Its probably because these players are just bad, and therefore use the DT opening in hopes their opponent doesn't get detection and they straight out win the game and if they don't win the game with the DT they can get a blind timing in to win the game rather than attempting to win the game strategically. The psychological aspects are not that important however, rather use your Observer to see if your opponent is terrible (and therefore adding Gateways instead of getting a Robotics). If he is doing this..simply drop two Dark Templars in the main. If your opponent knows the DT build and therefore follows up with a Robotics, use the storm drops.
Sources:
(Mini actually got Reavers but he still follows up with harassment which backs up my statement regarding the importance of DT harass vs incompetent players or HT harass vs other players).
If you look through additional professional games you can see more examples of the Templar tech followup. Unfortunately, Templar based builds have not been too common recently in professional matches due to the high number of Dragoon heavy builds that are strong on the recent proleague map pool.
Wouldn't the proper reaction to DT build would be to NOT go for templar tech, seeing as how continuing reaver tech will get you robotics facility which you can quickly build observatory and pop out an observer real quick? What good would going templar tech do?
You still get the Observer, but then you follow up with a Citadel and then an Archives rather than a Reaver. In an older game Jangbi displayed why going for Reavers is a bad idea. A DT build follows up with HT for storm. This makes a timing attack with Reavers obsolete since storms can counter Reavers pretty easily, especially in situations where Reavers are necessary to break a Cannon line. Its also easier to go for harassment oriented play with High Templar drops rather than relying on Reavers, since scarabs take longer to activate, have less range, and sometimes dud. If you consistently watch professional games it will become apparent switching to templar tech rather than getting Reaver tech after getting Observers is the most common counter to a DT build.
There was a Mini PvP on Outlier this season, against Kal maybe, where he stuck with shuttle-reaver into the late-game and showed how effective they can be when microed, even when the opponent has storm
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On May 14 2012 09:36 tryummm wrote: The proper reaction against a DT build is to stop your Reaver tech and go for Templar Tech and subsequently quick High Templar drops. Against most iCCup Protoss players you can instead use a Dark Templar drop and basically win the game because hardly any players on iCCup understand the strategy and therefore follow up the Dark Templars with attempted aggressiveness rather than producing a Robotics. Its probably because these players are just bad, and therefore use the DT opening in hopes their opponent doesn't get detection and they straight out win the game and if they don't win the game with the DT they can get a blind timing in to win the game rather than attempting to win the game strategically. The psychological aspects are not that important however, rather use your Observer to see if your opponent is terrible (and therefore adding Gateways instead of getting a Robotics). If he is doing this..simply drop two Dark Templars in the main. If your opponent knows the DT build and therefore follows up with a Robotics, use the storm drops.
Sources:
(Mini actually got Reavers but he still follows up with harassment which backs up my statement regarding the importance of DT harass vs incompetent players or HT harass vs other players).
If you look through additional professional games you can see more examples of the Templar tech followup. Unfortunately, Templar based builds have not been too common recently in professional matches due to the high number of Dragoon heavy builds that are strong on the recent proleague map pool.
Wouldn't the proper reaction to DT build would be to NOT go for templar tech, seeing as how continuing reaver tech will get you robotics facility which you can quickly build observatory and pop out an observer real quick? What good would going templar tech do?
You still get the Observer, but then you follow up with a Citadel and then an Archives rather than a Reaver. In an older game Jangbi displayed why going for Reavers is a bad idea. A DT build follows up with HT for storm. This makes a timing attack with Reavers obsolete since storms can counter Reavers pretty easily, especially in situations where Reavers are necessary to break a Cannon line. Its also easier to go for harassment oriented play with High Templar drops rather than relying on Reavers, since scarabs take longer to activate, have less range, and sometimes dud. If you consistently watch professional games it will become apparent switching to templar tech rather than getting Reaver tech after getting Observers is the most common counter to a DT build.
There was a Mini PvP on Outlier this season, against Kal maybe, where he stuck with shuttle-reaver into the late-game and showed how effective they can be when microed, even when the opponent has storm
I like tryummm's idea of skipping reaver and getting templar tech asap. It's easier to micro that way but if you do choose to go reaver you need to have a good arc, good storm dodging and reaver micro all at the same time in every engagement which is really hard. Going templar tech also makes it easy to hold off aggression with your own DTs if they skip obs. A DT drop isn't necessary either since a good player will make a cannon or two in their main and also have units positioned to snipe the shuttle as it comes though if you manage to get in their base and see one cannon, just drop DTs on top to kill it.
DT->expansion openers usually follow up with HTs with defense, and a timing push when natural paid off, gateways kicked in, and multiple HTs gained energy. By getting your own archives you force them to also have an observer in time for his push, and that's a decent gas investment for robo/observatory/obs. If they skip it in favor of something else, you're either going to do damage with DT drops, or he will be unable to push, etc. If he does get an observer himself, that makes his push weaker and manageable. Overall, he's hard pressed to grab a 3rd before detection, on most maps. You, however, can do whatever you want at the time. Depending on the map, stuff like double expanding/DT into HT drop delay into bunch of gates can work.
IMO, more important is to manage your goon count well. Personally, I favor going for a minimal goon count that's enough to force him to make cannons, then cutting goon production for a brief time. If I feel like I can break my opponent, I'd rather go for it completely all-in with a probe and expansion cut in favor of more units; possibly, reaver. Getting a reaver for a break attempt can work, depending on how fast you've gotten your robo. Overall, you pretty much need 2 observers to push out; you can secure some ground/push away DTs with your first obs and move out before the second observer is done; going for an obs->reaver->obs is also an option, if you want to push with a reaver.
MCBurGerPr0 Afghanistan. May 16 2012 05:59. Posts 4
You should know that he's going for DT tech due to 3 things (or so I think): a) You see the citadel b/c he's retarded and didn't kill your scout probe. b) He is not fuckin pressuring you at all (at least not until DTs are out). c) By extension of b, he is desperately trying to block his main ramp, usually with 2zeals + 1goon. Pressure him and see what he does.
If you have a reaver MAKING, you're done for unless you are a god of throwing units desperately at ramps to block DTs from getting in. If you planned on going reavers and you have robo going up, go obs first. Obs first is standard anyways and early reaver doesn't net you THAT much of an advantage, especially if he just has 2 goons waiting in the back of the main mineral lines.
If he's going for some new build thingy where he delays DT tech for a slightly earlier expansion, I'm pretty sure it won't be that different from a regular 2gate expansion...but with DTs. You could just 3gate robo and walk into his base before he gets the tech up lols.
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hm imo you should watch out for his nat, if he is getting pretty fast pylon at nat speaks a lot for dt expand, for the canons later on. you can pressure him with goons and while this send in probe and then get goons out again, you should be at least able to scout his nat. and you can watch for goonrange, in general dt expand means no goon range until expo. if you know he is going for it, the counter build to it is 3 gate robo, but in general you won't be able to scout it before you picked your bo. if you scout it and you have gone for the standart 2 gate robo build with reaver, you should get at least 1 more obs, your expo at and get templar tech of your own, this forces him to stay in his base, until he has obs and buys you a lot time. skip new gates and get fast second gas, while that you can contain him with goons and try to harass with reaver a bit. you should not try to attack cause storm+canons is to hard to break. after getting templar tech+forge go up to like 8 gates and you should be fine.
On May 14 2012 07:49 FlaShFTW wrote: There was this one thread of 12 nex pvp but i cant seem to find it anymore... its very popular nowadays with iccup play.
Sayle's fault. I wonder if you can pm him, a very good pvp :D
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Thank you guys. Really appreciate your advices. Currently i easily get C- with only few losses, however i start to have problems with yellow rank. Wanna make B- 8). Now i know how to deal with dt opening but u did not tell me much about timing attack when opponents gates kick off from expand.
MCBurGerPr0 Afghanistan. May 16 2012 05:59. Posts 4
