ZvZ Baneling Contain

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Contain the enemy zerg in his main with slowlings and banelings. Use the ramp to force enemy speedlings to clump up and leave them unable to run by.

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On May 13 2012 18:11 denzelz wrote:
Why can't your opponent just use queens or make his own banelings? Or if you have early banelings and your opponent doesn't, why don't you just walk up the ramp with the banes and try to kill workers?

Also, why did you make another thread to promote your old thread?

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On May 13 2012 18:21 Belial88 wrote:
Both threads are horrible, and not threadworthy. 9/10/11 pool baneling all-in is hardly new, and most not-low-level players know to keep their banes on a separate hotkey and always manually deonate them (or at least, never let them blow up on a micro'd ling, or at least move command them). And defenders will not run all their lings into a baneling.

9/10/11 pool will autowin against hatch first if you do it right (pull drones, or banelings, otherwise hatch firster can possibly come out even).

Your build is countered by 14 pools... they get a spine and queen, and just outproduce you. You are really just hoping they are going hatch first.

Which I 'counter' by ~10 drone scouting. If I see a pool that was planted well before 2:00 (which is when drone arrives), I just 14 pool. If I see a done pool, it's clearly a 6/7/8 pool, if I see no pool, it's hatch first and I just be a lot greedier with my pool timing. I don't know why more pros don't do this, but stephano does it (i've done it for a long time, imo he copy me).

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On May 13 2012 18:49 Clarity_nl wrote:


Because if you're both going 15 hatch your opponent will be ahead because you drone scouted.

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On May 13 2012 19:21 Belial88 wrote:


I don't think you understand.

If you go 10 drone scout vs...:

6-11 Pool, you throw down a 14 pool, and end up ahead
14/14, you go normal hatch first, and you are ahead (just not as ahead as if you didn't drone scout, but still ahead)
Hatch First, you go gas first, and you make your pool much later (vs a 'standard' 15/15p/15g, I would go with 15/17g/17p)

I don't see how the opponent going 15 hatch will end up ahead. Furthermore, a 10 drone scout vs a hatch first means you can block the hatch (which will be pretty obvious, a 10 drone scout will arrive in time to get to their mineral line and see they have 15 drones instead of 13, ie a ton of drones, and see him pull a drone off to make that hatch, which you can block for a really long time).

I know most pros don't do it, but I really think they are making a mistake. Yep, I'll be the asshole to say that. I just see over 50% of ZvZ's end in the first 5 minutes because someone went hatch first vs 10 pool (idra, nestea, drg, recently, going 10 pool twice in a row in a series), or 10 pool vs 14 pool. Just avoid the coinflip completely and 10 drone scout.

Stephano does it. I've been watching his recent tournament ZvZ (iron squid for example), and he goes 10 drone scout hatch first. More than one of the games (the first set against.. forget his name, on cloud kingdom) he reactively goes 14 pool vs a 10 pool he scouted right before he would have normally planted his hatch.

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If you both go 15 hatch and you drone scout and he doesn't, he will be ahead.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's the reasoning behind it.
Most pros feel zvz is the most coinflippy matchup, and dronescouting at 9 or 10 might be "safe" against anything but 15 hatch, but it puts you behind otherwise. You'd be surprised how much mining time you lose by cutting 10% of your eco earlygame.

I understand that if you scout and he's 10 pooling you win, or if he's 14/14 you're ahead.

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On May 14 2012 00:02 Belial88 wrote:


You aren't cutting 10% of your econ... you are just cutting 80 minerals, which you are replacing by having 2 more drones out earlier or whatever because you are going a much later pool and by blocking his hatch. 15h/17g/17p 10 drone scout is more economic than 15h/15p/15g or a blocked hatch forcing at best 17h/15p/15g.

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On May 14 2012 00:36 Belial88 wrote:
Well it's 10 drone scout, not 9 (sometimes even 12, depending on map, but that's pulling at 12).

People generally don't drone scout at all in ZvZ, but if they do I believe most just send a 13 drone scout (dont know why :X).

If you see such an early scout, it's possible I'm doing an early pool.

Although yea, you could infer I was going hatch first too, and throw down a greedy pool yourself. The difference is that I will just go 19 pool then to your 17 pool, and I will block your hatch.

Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm saying I recoup the losses of the drone scout by always making a later and greedier pool than you do. It doesn't matter if you go 21g/21p, I will just go 23g/23p in response.

This is just my opinion, and I understand that I've communicated the most important point - you become safe against early pools and are ahead already against 14/14, which seems to be the majority of tournament losses - and that most pros don't do this. I'm just stating my rationale why I think it's good even against hatch first, although I hope I've made a strong enough case to state that for the odds, it's best to 10 drone scout.

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On May 14 2012 00:36 Belial88 wrote:
Well it's 10 drone scout, not 9 (sometimes even 12, depending on map, but that's pulling at 12).

People generally don't drone scout at all in ZvZ, but if they do I believe most just send a 13 drone scout (dont know why :X).

If you see such an early scout, it's possible I'm doing an early pool.

Although yea, you could infer I was going hatch first too, and throw down a greedy pool yourself. The difference is that I will just go 19 pool then to your 17 pool, and I will block your hatch.

Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm saying I recoup the losses of the drone scout by always making a later and greedier pool than you do. It doesn't matter if you go 21g/21p, I will just go 23g/23p in response.

This is just my opinion, and I understand that I've communicated the most important point - you become safe against early pools and are ahead already against 14/14, which seems to be the majority of tournament losses - and that most pros don't do this. I'm just stating my rationale why I think it's good even against hatch first, although I hope I've made a strong enough case to state that for the odds, it's best to 10 drone scout.

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