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| SwampFox1474 United States. May 20 2012 23:46. Posts 4 | Profile # |
Just wanted to stop by and thank Mista for sharing his build. I am just starting online play so I don't have any strategic insight worth sharing of course  . However, in an effort to improve my macro I've been following filtersc's thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330787
and this build is fantastic for a Protoss version! |
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| The_Darkness United States. May 21 2012 00:46. Posts 784 | Profile # |
On May 20 2012 01:41 StarBrift wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 04:40 The_Darkness wrote:I've lost to P doing something like this (turtle for 14 or 15 minutes and then pushout with Collosuses or a bunch of immortals) and I generally do the "stephano build". I'm high diamond. This build seems to work on maps where it's easy for Protoss to hold their natural with sentries (e.g., Ohana or Shakuras) but on Daybreak I've been able to kill it with superior production by simply breaking down their wall at around the 12 minute mark and eventually overwhelming their forces before a bunch of colossus can come out. If you're doing the Stephano build you'll have about 60 drones at 8 minutes and a fourth base before the 10 minute mark. If you see a warp prism you can safely drone to 65-70 in case you want to play for the later game. With patience, if you simply keep teching up (and killing or sacrificing supply as needed to replace roaches with infestors and corruptors), it seems like it would be hard for P to march across the map and beat 2 maxed out Zerg armies, but what seems hard and it was is hard in practice are obviously two different things. Sorry for being lazy, but could you direct me to a game where you beat 2 maxed out zerg armies? (Or could someone who's watched the games do so.) I need to see it to believe it  Edit: I should add that when I lose to the build, i attribute it to the fact that I am idiot who insists on throwing half his army away by trying to force his way up the ramp to the nat on Shakuras and repeatedly losing half of his army until the Protoss is near maxed and I die.
I don't think you understand what the point of the build is if you think you can trade units before the actual battle. The whole point is that if you spend money on more than 20 roaches you are most likely not going to afford the gas units you need to defend the push. Also if you stop drones at 60 vs this you won't afford mass spines in time either. The whole point of this build is that you need to start reacting to it about 3-4 minutes before it hits and it's very hard for a zerg to decide if they should be safe against this build or safe against a normal sentry heavy immortal push.
I don't think you understand what I wrote, or you're trying to troll me. I made two separate points: 1) You can often simply overwhelm the Protoss at their wall. This is map dependent since it depends on how much surface area there is but it's generally doable on, e.g., Daybreak. But sometimes you can't, which leads to point 2: Even if you don't scout that they're doing this "build", a build like this isn't that hard to spot. If the Protoss hasn't expanded, then he's all-inning; you don't need to scout anything to determine that other than the fact that he doesn't have a third base. This point does not turn on trading before the final battle. If you have between 60 and 70 drones and you're maxed at 12 you will have enough bank to afford another army in three to four minutes (5700 to 7600 min, 1200-1600 gas (actually probably more gas -- I'm assuming you stay on four gases) and 50 to 60 additional larvae, take away some gas for further upgrades and tech and some minerals for additional hatcheries and spines; you can easily afford spines if you're mining approximately 2K minerals a minute).
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| | To be is to be the value of a bound variable. |
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| NemesysTV United States. May 21 2012 07:57. Posts 1081 | Profile Blog # |
| You sir are a hero to my profile |
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| eGengar May 21 2012 10:37. Posts 4 | Profile # |
I just want to say, this build is absolutely amazing and while im a mid diamond player, I just beat a top diamond and mid masters zerg with this. With good positioning, I don't see how this build will die unless all in'd early game
Thanks a bunch! |
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| quillian United States. May 22 2012 03:49. Posts 278 | Profile # |
After trying it a bit I love this all in.
What do you think about templar tech with this? I find colossus build too slow to reinforce, so after the first 3 or 4 switching to archon might be better?
Edit : also wanted to note, one subtle thing you can do is occasionally move a probe to your third and build a pylon. The zerg will usually send some roach ling to shut down your "expansion". This can make them cocky about their advantage and less sure of the all in ( this is speculation on their thinking, but they seem to be more greedy and less ready)Last edit: 2012-05-22 04:04:00 |
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| Green Sun s Zenith Canada. May 22 2012 05:57. Posts 84 | Profile # |
| I just started experimenting with this build now. I would like to say thank you for sharing this . I am always open minded to new strategies and this will be one that I will enjoy using. By the way , do you stream at all ? |
| | "The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers." — Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Rep. P |
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| eXeRebeLLioN Croatia. May 22 2012 07:53. Posts 12 | Profile # |
Thank you for this guide Mista !
I had a really hard time against Stephano style, but now Im crushing everyone Got promoted tnx to this guide
Keep it up ! :D |
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| michaelhasanalias Korea (South). May 28 2012 21:21. Posts 1230 | Profile # |
I'm still catching up on the state of zvp since starting back up, but I just watched this game on stephano's stream from his perspective, and he really seemed to have absolutely no idea what you were doing at all the entire game.
http://www.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/317466122 (It's at 20:30)
He seemed content knowing you were on 2 bases, seeing an immortal and a few sentries, and knowing your gas timings. He happily took a fourth and droned his face off. He shut down your warp prism harass for the most part but just seemed underprepared for your attack. I don't know if part of your plan for the warp prism harass was just to get him to make a lot more lings?
Is it normal for zergs to play this much in the dark? Was it cockiness on his part (he was talking some friendly smack at the beginning) or something else I just wasn't picking up on?
You pretty much moved across the map with a death ball and popped him in the mouth.
As zerg, what exactly should I do if you sit on 2-base and max? I should drone up my third and then just max on roaches? I feel like you could be attacking at any time from 8 minutes to the 14 you move out at, any of which would be too risky to try and tech up.
edit: after reading this thread in full, it seems like I should just go mutas via nerchio replay?Last edit: 2012-05-28 22:03:38 |
| | KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players |
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| GomJabbar United States. May 31 2012 03:48. Posts 161 | Profile # |
Hey, just wanted to pop in and say this build kicks ass! I just tried it out in Diamond against a Zerg who did the super fast roach max out, and at the 15 minute mark with 3 colossi and 1/1 upgrades (I did it really sloppily!) I rampaged through Zerg's 4th and 3rd bases, only falling back to defend his hail-mary Roach counter rather than killing his natural and main. After I launched the attack I double-expanded and started producing probes again. Zerg's economy was super crippled, and although he had the tech in place for the 18 minute brood lord infestor transition he didn't have the econ to do it and I rolled over his main with blink stalker + colossus.
As long as you double-expand during/after the attack does a ton of damage, it can transition to a macro game, I think.
I assume if I scout muta I go ahead and cannon up my bases before the move-out? He shouldn't be able to touch me before I leave my base, since I'd have blink and stalkers turtled in my base, so I just want to prevent a base trade scenario. |
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| Borkbokbork United States. May 31 2012 05:19. Posts 123 | Profile # |
| What stops the Zerg from base-trading with you? As in, couldn't he just wait for you to leave and own your 2 bases with mass roach? |
| | qi neng jin ru ren yi, dan qiu wu kui wo xin |
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| niladorus Greece. May 31 2012 05:44. Posts 107 | Profile # | |
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| Shallot United States. May 31 2012 20:16. Posts 57 | Profile # |
I started playing with this build yesterday (only diamond though, I still have some macro issues) but wanted to mention a couple things I noticed.
First of all, it really seems like the key to this whole thing is doing solid damage with the WP. Every game where I was able to get a few drone kills and the zerg didn't react properly with queens and his roach positioning, the game was essentially over before I even pushed out with my army.
Also, you mention hiding the colossus, but equally as important imo is hiding the robo as much as possible, because a suspicious player who switches to muta will just straight up kill you. Basically, once they finish their spire, it seems like you have about a 1 1/2-2 minute window to move out or you will lose.
You might have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but what have you done in games where you thought your opponent was going max roach but then decided to spam a bunch of mutas instead? Sorry if this is a bad question. Thank you so much for posting this build Mista. |
| | A shallot is the love child of garlic and onion. |
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| Bill Murray United States. May 31 2012 20:59. Posts 7056 | Profile Blog # |
| Considering you are deciding to turtle on 2 bases, have you messed around with having a macro nexus? |
| | University of Kentucky Basketball #1 |
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| ohampatu United States. June 01 2012 01:07. Posts 1431 | Profile # |
On May 31 2012 20:16 Shallot wrote:
I started playing with this build yesterday (only diamond though, I still have some macro issues) but wanted to mention a couple things I noticed.
First of all, it really seems like the key to this whole thing is doing solid damage with the WP. Every game where I was able to get a few drone kills and the zerg didn't react properly with queens and his roach positioning, the game was essentially over before I even pushed out with my army.
Also, you mention hiding the colossus, but equally as important imo is hiding the robo as much as possible, because a suspicious player who switches to muta will just straight up kill you. Basically, once they finish their spire, it seems like you have about a 1 1/2-2 minute window to move out or you will lose.
You might have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but what have you done in games where you thought your opponent was going max roach but then decided to spam a bunch of mutas instead? Sorry if this is a bad question. Thank you so much for posting this build Mista.
I didn't get to see the nerchio replay. But yes, this doesn't seem to work very well against ling/muta builds. Esp 2 hatch muta. But 2 hatch muta has always been a good counter for quick 2 base/colo timings. From what I can tell, if you scout he is doing something other than stephano style, you should add like 5 more sentrys and take your third if the map allows it, similar to how MC beat Stephano at the Red Bull Lan. I think MC plays a very good econ style vs this type of play that can hold up to muta though.
I appreciate the guide, but i just dont know if I have the scouting to beat muta switches. I really like MC's quick third base because then mutas aren't a huge issue, because I find quick 3 base with canons pretty much can negate muta openings. If you dont get that third base though muta openings just punish us so bad.
Good Guide, if i scout 3 hatch that isn't going heavy gas i'll be sure to try and do it. |
| | I am become death, for I am the destroyer of worlds.....You will be missed KT Violet!!! |
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| Pyloss Germany. June 01 2012 02:35. Posts 374 | Profile # |
| Mista, thanks for this build. In last time, i struggeld a lot vs Zerg. They all played roaches, so i had not that many chances. Today i got 5 zergs, i always played this build, and i always won...so thanks for sharing it! |
| | <3 Grubby, White-Ra, CranK, Mana, Monchi, TaKe, Hasu, GoOdy, Socke <3 |
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| craziekev Canada. June 01 2012 05:15. Posts 61 | Profile # |
I don't know if it has been said yet....soo many pages.... But would it be viable to incorporate a stargate ( just one ) just in case you do in fact scout the mutas so you can produce pheonix?
Seems like it's a good idea if you can fit it in Last edit: 2012-06-01 05:18:42 |
| | a good defense makes a great offense |
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| tehemperorer United States. June 01 2012 07:14. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
On May 31 2012 05:19 Borkbokbork wrote:
What stops the Zerg from base-trading with you? As in, couldn't he just wait for you to leave and own your 2 bases with mass roach?
Zerg has about 9 buildings, you have about 30 |
| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| tehemperorer United States. June 01 2012 07:16. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
On May 22 2012 03:49 quillian wrote:
After trying it a bit I love this all in.
What do you think about templar tech with this? I find colossus build too slow to reinforce, so after the first 3 or 4 switching to archon might be better?
Edit : also wanted to note, one subtle thing you can do is occasionally move a probe to your third and build a pylon. The zerg will usually send some roach ling to shut down your "expansion". This can make them cocky about their advantage and less sure of the all in ( this is speculation on their thinking, but they seem to be more greedy and less ready)
The number of Templar you can have at that time cannot handle roach, or burrowed roach. Also if you go Templar instead of Colossus you need more sentries than you would if you had gone Colossus. To be as efficient as a colossus you need about 3 or more templar, assuming the templar never die. |
| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| Kornholi0 Canada. June 01 2012 11:06. Posts 629 | Profile # |
| If you get that much at 14:30, what happens when he shows up at 12:30? how do you defend for 2 minutes before your actual stuff kicks in? |
| | Team Channel: VTeX Team Co-leader: AGGhost 223 Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/agghost |
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| GomJabbar United States. June 01 2012 17:03. Posts 161 | Profile # |
On June 01 2012 11:06 Kornholi0 wrote:
If you get that much at 14:30, what happens when he shows up at 12:30? how do you defend for 2 minutes before your actual stuff kicks in?
You sit at your natural choke point, with cannons and sentries, and let his roaches funnel into your colossus lasers of death.
Hey, has anybody here gotten a GG from a Zerg after beating them with this build? I've got none so far after like 4 games >:D |
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