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 Silvertine United States. May 14 2012 19:17. Posts 509 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 19:10 MooLen wrote:
I played a similar collosus build before 2 month. It had a high succsess rate but back in that time the zergs played mutas quite often and i often lost due basetrade. How does this build deals with the mutalisk problem?!
A few answers to that throughout the thread. |
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| Douillos France. May 14 2012 19:20. Posts 2220 | Profile # |
Wow guys. Nice seeing little amateurs giving lessons to a pro level player coming to share a build.
No wonder no more pros even bother to read these forums. So STFU, watch the replays and fuck learn something.Last edit: 2012-05-14 19:20:20 |
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| Sergio1992 Italy. May 14 2012 19:29. Posts 521 | Profile Blog # |
| If I was a mod, I would ban half the people that posted into this thread. By seeing people entering this topic, and just posting, for the sake of posting and bitching about how this build is not viable, even if the person that published it use it on high gm, I wonder no more about the why people are not posting new guides. |
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| simsy Norway. May 14 2012 19:40. Posts 2 | Profile # |
I want to see ling bling roach against this.. with 2 sentries and a zerg who sandwiches you with 40 blings
User was warned for this post |
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| Grubby Netherlands. May 14 2012 19:40. Posts 271 | Profile # |
(In my opinion), there is nothing wrong with a guy who has actual experience playing Europe's GM Zergs, who posts a build that has worked on occasion (even if it's only on occasion!), who tries to offer general help. It's easy to poke holes in builds or call it bad because of your opinion of how the game should be played, but also irrelevant to actual results. Sure, this is not an all-purpose build, but then again no build is. I've seen little appreciation and much theory crafting (some of it probably correct, others wrong). I would be scared to post a build if the reception would be mostly negative.
If someone posted a Diamond build without replays, then okay I get it. But he's beaten Stephano. Sure, it's only ladder, but it's something. I want to be one element of grateful reception at least. Thanks for posting this thread Mista ^^ |
| | Homepage: followgrubby.com Twitter: @followgrubby Facebook: /followgrubby |
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| Evire Norway. May 14 2012 19:50. Posts 174 | Profile Blog # |
| Am I the only one that goes fast third in response? @_@ |
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| Notfragile Greece. May 14 2012 20:08. Posts 593 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 19:10 MooLen wrote:
I played a similar collosus build before 2 month. It had a high succsess rate but back in that time the zergs played mutas quite often and i often lost due basetrade. How does this build deals with the mutalisk problem?!
Well, it doesn't deal with the mutalisk problem. The zealot/prism harassment means you get a full scout of the zerg and his tech. If you see him being on 2 geysers at 9-10 minutes, or see an infestation pit or see a big roach army then you should probably not worry about mutalisks and go on with your build. If you see many geysers taken and a spire morphing or at least no infestation pit morphing, then you should take your third. You massively upgraded immortal/blink stalker force should help you take it safely and transition from there to a macro game.
Seems like a really strong push that requires a perfect combination of roach/spine/infestor/corruptor to be dealth with. The problem is that it is really tough to scout, there is no tell besides the colossi (which could be hidden) and the double forge upgrading constantly (which is pretty hard to scout). I forsee more zergs blindly going ~10 spines at the front (plus infestor tech) regardless of other scouting information when the toss hasn't expanded by 10-11 minutes. An army like Mista's cannot be cleared by a normal 200 zerg army, even if you are not cought in the hive transition.
I would suggest to the OP to add some replays of him transitioning to 3 base after scouting spire, in order to make the guide complete. Also I pray to god that not many people read this thread and start raping zergs around in ladder  |
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| Twelve12 Australia. May 14 2012 20:09. Posts 267 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 19:20 Douillos wrote:
Wow guys. Nice seeing little amateurs giving lessons to a pro level player coming to share a build.
No wonder no more pros even bother to read these forums. So STFU, watch the replays and fuck learn something.
This is so true. This game is so much more complicated than theorycrafters make it out to be. This guy is better than (possibly) everyone who has commented so far, and therefore almost certainly has a much higher level understanding of the game. |
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| ELYSiUMlol United States. May 14 2012 20:10. Posts 88 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 19:40 Grubby wrote:
(In my opinion), there is nothing wrong with a guy who has actual experience playing Europe's GM Zergs, who posts a build that has worked on occasion (even if it's only on occasion!), who tries to offer general help. It's easy to poke holes in builds or call it bad because of your opinion of how the game should be played, but also irrelevant to actual results. Sure, this is not an all-purpose build, but then again no build is. I've seen little appreciation and much theory crafting (some of it probably correct, others wrong). I would be scared to post a build if the reception would be mostly negative.
If someone posted a Diamond build without replays, then okay I get it. But he's beaten Stephano. Sure, it's only ladder, but it's something. I want to be one element of grateful reception at least. Thanks for posting this thread Mista ^^
Don't encourage him Grubby, I don't want to play against this anymore than I already have ;_____;
In response to the build, how well do mutas ACTUALLY do against this? People seem to be getting offended that mutas are being suggested as a response but I feel like you could honestly just counter attack him to death and hide a few expos, especially if you got drop tech to ferry your units around. Obviously you can scout the mutas and make the decision to alter your build but even then I feel like once you go 2 base colossus with this, if you decide to take a third you'd be behind.
I played against a Protoss today that did this and I just set up a massive flank of roach ling with queens and like 10 spines and crushed this, but I feel like this was just luck and the guy was bad, and you need either mutas or infestors. I'm wondering how you guys think this is beatable, seeing as we're all undoubtedly going to be playing against a lot of this in the next week or so.
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| IPS.Mardow. Germany. May 14 2012 20:16. Posts 669 | Profile # |
Typical strat that only works in SC2 imo. Protoss sits in his base, builds up big army and attacks... Very creative x_x
This would never work in BW, that's why SC2 isn't as good yet!
User was warned for this post |
| | You don't beat Jaedong. He decides to lose. |
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| syriuszonito Poland. May 14 2012 20:17. Posts 291 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 18:05 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 17:52 syriuszonito wrote:
Looks like a rly late 2 base all in that is going to die vs muta play
Why do people always post stuff like this? If you scout Mutalisks, DO SOMETHING ELSE. Is it that hard? There is no "one-size-fits-all" build.
Wow, just wow. You are going to scout mutalisks around 12 min, that means you have already invested too much in your 2 base "pressure" and you cant just switch to something else.
As for the guys saying "he stated that its a counter to 12 min roach max", Its rather unlikely that a zerg will blindly go for it. You scout no third from toss, see colossus tech with overseer and switch to mutas, whats the problem?
Sorry if I sound negative but I thought constructive criticism would be more beneficial to the thread than another "gj amazing build"Last edit: 2012-05-14 20:19:14 |
| | The one || My stream http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/syriuszonito |
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| Empire.Mista Greece. May 14 2012 20:30. Posts 139 | Profile # |
If the zerg scouts the bay you make only 1 collosus and you can skip the upgrades aswell , if he goes mutalisk he will already have gone 160 if not 180 pop with roach ling to defend the push.
You have 2 choices
1) You push
2) You get a 3rd and deal with mutalisk with your 3-2 stalkers vs his 0-0 mutalisk and you have your 4-5 immortlas and 1 collosus with cannons to defend your 3rd get 200/200 get 4rth base and push at 16-17 min
Since now only nerchio did mutalisk against me and i lost the game leaving him with some mutalisk alive and no bases.
the rest massed 200/200 roaches and infestors and lost badly.
I also lost some games vs bane drops but i also had bad unit control in that games.
http://drop.sc/179497 Loss vs Nerchio (Mutalisk)
Last edit: 2012-05-14 20:34:46 |
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| ineversmile United States. May 14 2012 20:38. Posts 571 | Profile Blog # |
How is this any different from the standard Protoss 2-base progression, which is to get blink and robo tech? I just don't get it. I mean, I see that the nexus/forge/gate are going down at 18, but I don't really see much deviation besides that. And how is this specifically anti-Stephano-style? What am I missing? The second Forge?
I'm not slandering the player or the build, but I cannot see what is distinctive about this build order, all the way through the point where Blink and a Robo Bay are slammed down. |
| | Nostradamus.146@AM, Nostradamus.398@KR, Nostradamus.922@EU http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/ins |
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| Silvertine United States. May 14 2012 20:42. Posts 509 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 20:10 ELYSiUMlol wrote:
In response to the build, how well do mutas ACTUALLY do against this? People seem to be getting offended that mutas are being suggested as a response but I feel like you could honestly just counter attack him to death and hide a few expos, especially if you got drop tech to ferry your units around. Obviously you can scout the mutas and make the decision to alter your build but even then I feel like once you go 2 base colossus with this, if you decide to take a third you'd be behind
I don't think relying on a base trade is practical. His force will be so far superior to yours that he can even leave quite a bit of it to defend. And with most natural layouts the combination of good building placement+force fields will make it difficult to break in. The Stephano build really can't transition to mutas anyway. By the time you know what's coming you'll have 4 gases instead of the 6 you need and virtually no gas banked.
The only way zerg can stop this is with infestor/corruptor/spine defense.
On May 14 2012 20:17 syriuszonito wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 18:05 Sated wrote:
On May 14 2012 17:52 syriuszonito wrote:
Looks like a rly late 2 base all in that is going to die vs muta play
Why do people always post stuff like this? If you scout Mutalisks, DO SOMETHING ELSE. Is it that hard? There is no "one-size-fits-all" build.
Wow, just wow. You are going to scout mutalisks around 12 min, that means you have already invested too much in your 2 base "pressure" and you cant just switch to something else.
It's not that simple at all. The zerg is using a build which transitions horribly into mutalisks for reasons that I've already mentioned.
As for the guys saying "he stated that its a counter to 12 min roach max", Its rather unlikely that a zerg will blindly go for it. You scout no third from toss, see colossus tech with overseer and switch to mutas, whats the problem?
I'm talking about Stephano's build altogether, not actually maxing blindly.
On May 14 2012 20:38 ineversmile wrote:
How is this any different from the standard Protoss 2-base progression, which is to get blink and robo tech? I just don't get it. I mean, I see that the nexus/forge/gate are going down at 18, but I don't really see much deviation besides that. And how is this specifically anti-Stephano-style? What am I missing? The second Forge?
I'm not slandering the player or the build, but I cannot see what is distinctive about this build order, all the way through the point where Blink and a Robo Bay are slammed down.
The fact that you're not taking a third and yet wait so long to push is what really makes it unique.
Last edit: 2012-05-14 20:45:58 |
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| syriuszonito Poland. May 14 2012 20:49. Posts 291 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 20:30 TheMista wrote:If the zerg scouts the bay you make only 1 collosus and you can skip the upgrades aswell , if he goes mutalisk he will already have gone 160 if not 180 pop with roach ling to defend the push. You have 2 choices 1) You push 2) You get a 3rd and deal with mutalisk with your 3-2 stalkers vs his 0-0 mutalisk and you have your 4-5 immortlas and 1 collosus with cannons to defend your 3rd get 200/200 get 4rth base and push at 16-17 min Since now only nerchio did mutalisk against me and i lost the game leaving him with some mutalisk alive and no bases. the rest massed 200/200 roaches and infestors and lost badly. I also lost some games vs bane drops but i also had bad unit control in that games. http://drop.sc/179497 Loss vs Nerchio (Mutalisk)
1) I dont think a push with 1 colossus and gateway army is gonna work against a maxed zerg
2) Ofc you can but its going to be a delayed third and imo you are gonna end up behind
@Silvertine
this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it?Last edit: 2012-05-14 20:50:30 |
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| WGT-Baal France. May 14 2012 20:56. Posts 378 | Profile Blog # |
Thanks for your post Mista! It s nice to see a strat shared by a proplayer
I will watch your replays closely!
Also, Grubby, if you have some strat to share, please do so! Keep in mind that a lot of people on TL are lurkers (like me) and appreciate the threads even without leaving a comment. |
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| aintthatfunny May 14 2012 20:57. Posts 186 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 20:49 syriuszonito wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 20:30 TheMista wrote:If the zerg scouts the bay you make only 1 collosus and you can skip the upgrades aswell , if he goes mutalisk he will already have gone 160 if not 180 pop with roach ling to defend the push. You have 2 choices 1) You push 2) You get a 3rd and deal with mutalisk with your 3-2 stalkers vs his 0-0 mutalisk and you have your 4-5 immortlas and 1 collosus with cannons to defend your 3rd get 200/200 get 4rth base and push at 16-17 min Since now only nerchio did mutalisk against me and i lost the game leaving him with some mutalisk alive and no bases. the rest massed 200/200 roaches and infestors and lost badly. I also lost some games vs bane drops but i also had bad unit control in that games. http://drop.sc/179497 Loss vs Nerchio (Mutalisk)
1) I dont think a push with 1 colossus and gateway army is gonna work against a maxed zerg 2) Ofc you can but its going to be a delayed third and imo you are gonna end up behind @Silvertine this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it?
You're wrong, watch the replays, the build is good. Good thing to have in a BoX. |
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| Silvertine United States. May 14 2012 21:03. Posts 509 | Profile # |
this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it?
I'm not questioning the build, it's brilliant. It's the fact that you want to transition to mutas from it that's crazy. Going mutas is ideal off of 2 bases, you only have one area to defend with spines(as this is the only possible way to defend going mutas) and you can bank up gas since you're not using it on roaches to defend. When you attempt going mutas off of 3 base it gets very messy. You will be on 4 gases instead of 6 and absolutely all of it with have gone into upgrades and the mass of roaches you've begun building up. So you have no gas banked and you have to wait for 2 geysers to finish to really start harvesting the amount you need.
You should have a decent amount of 0-0 mutas(maybe 16), roaches, lings, and spines against his deathball with 3-2 upgrades. There's no question that it will be absolutely demolished in a direct battle and remaxing won't even be relevant because he'll survive with 170+ food. The only option you would have is base trading and I don't think that's very practical for reasons I gave earlier.
You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes.
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| gitarrojoe Germany. May 14 2012 21:05. Posts 69 | Profile # |
you dont have an observer with the army? if you push and he has burrow that would be sad. Its a strong 2 base all in but there is no reason a good zerg should lose agaisnt this if he goes roaches. Stephano made a ton of zerglings blindly, that was kind of unfortunate for him, but that replay is not stephano style. I watched another replay on shakuras, where the zerg just build corrupters and spines. he lost the game barely but thats because he controlled his army not good enough. What if a zerg has 4 bases and just builds spines all over the place and his army goes for base trade? the zerg army with corrupters can defend your attack with spines. Not saying you cant win with this build but the titel says anti stephano style but its just a 2 base all in, there is no transition or lets say you are not doing this build because he made so many roaches, but because you saw 3 base. you are commiting to this build blindly after builduing the second forge and robo bay, but then your warp prism is just on the way and so you are not sure if the zerg goes for roaches.
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| Sbrubbles Brazil. May 14 2012 21:08. Posts 2183 | Profile # |
Thank you for the build, Mista. I may play Zerg, but it's cool to see the metagame expand in different directions. Also, I know I've gotta try as hard as hell to actually scout what the P is doing now.
What do you consider the best Zerg comp to beat your P comp? A few infestors with banelings drops? Infestors and corruptors? Pure burrowed roach slowing you down from the door of your base to until you reach the Zerg 3rd? |
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