Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Chat
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web ClientTeamSpeak 3 (70 users) | |
|
| Clazziquai10 Singapore. May 14 2012 19:58. Posts 921 | Profile Blog # |
First off, let me state that I'm just diamond and I'm no high level gosu grandmaster player....so please don't go bashing me if you think what I'm suggesting is retarded ridiculous or stupid.....  .......
So I'm a terran player and I just changed up my hotkey setup to be more efficient - I've shifted "morph CC into PF" to Z, lift off to "F", patrol to Q, shifted vikings to U and medivacs to J and moved my building hotkeys 1 step down as I felt I needed more army control. So naturally I started playing terribly.......Fortunately, I took this time to think more about the current TvZ situation!!!
So after the new queen/overlord patch which allowed zergs to spread creep faster, defend early pressure better, scout better and just play more greedy in general, I was struggling to think of how us terrans can gain an advantage over zerg. I thought about the following:
Economy: Nah.....zergs can take fast thirds and drone up so fast.....
Map control: Hellions used to be pretty good at denying creep spread...but once speedlings are out, coupled with the new queens and diamond level multitasking it means that it is gonna be even tougher than before.....sigh....
Being agressive is too coin flippy and leaves you behind on other areas because you have to commit to the attack.
So what can we really try to get ahead on against a zerg??? ....... AHA!
![[image loading]](http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/14434/1456061-engineering_bay_large.jpg)
UPGRADES!
Since zergs don't have chrono boost, they can't really get ahead on upgrades against you once you're ahead and keep it up. And since a large majority of zergs still use muta-ling and get hive later, you CAN potentially hit 3-3 WAY before the zerg and use it to your advantage! Super effective.
However, due to the unpredictable nature of ladder, there is a high likelyhood of you dying to economic baneling/roach baneling/roach ling all in shenanigans if you don't take precautions. From my diamond level knowledge, if you're gonna play greedily you've gotta play defensively. Sure, if you have marineking's micro you can probably stop allins by pulling marines out of dying bunkers in the nick of time, split your marines perfectly, micro your scvs yadayadayada...... but most of us arent marineking....so....what can we use to defend allins effectively? whats one terran unit that really excels at defence? Thats right! The siege tank!
![[image loading]](http://www.nixiepixel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/seige-poem-tank.jpg)
Ok....enough blabbering.....lets get on to the build shall we?
Build order:
10 supply
12 rax
15 OC + make 1 marine
16 CC
17 supply
17 marine
18 SCV
@ 150 gas make 2 refineries, put 3 guys on each gas as soon as gas finish
.....
Continuous scv + marine production out of 1 rax. make bunker at natural if necessary
.....
@100 gas make factory
@ next 50 gas reactor
@ next 250 minerals make 2xEbay
...
Once the Ebays finishes, get 1/1. you should have just enough gas
once factory+reactor finishes, swap and get 2 hellions. Make a tech lab on barracks.
The hellions should finish at the same time as the tech lab. Once the hellions finish, swap the factory over and get tanks, siege with the next 100 gas and reactored marines.
Get 2 more rax when you can afford it.
Once you get your 2nd tank, your siege mode and 2 additional rax should also finish. Swap one of the rax over onto the tech lab and get stim, and get a reactor on the other rax.
The rationale behind such a late stim is that if you aren't planning to attack anytime soon or don't have medivacs, stim isn't really necessary. Every time you press T, you eat into your marine's health. We don't want to get stim just because we want to or like to press T.
At this point I must mention that if you spot a fast third with your hellions, my diamond league opinion is to get a third CC as soon as you can afford it. Additionally, I'm still working on the timings for the 3rd/4th gas so that we can start the armoury on time and get 2/2 as soon as 1/1 finishes.
For those who need a more visual description of this build, here's a replay of me against a very easy AI:
http://drop.sc/179481
Notes:
1. The 2 hellions will be the only ones we will get. Since you cant really kill drones/deny creep/harass queens/contain the zerg effectively after this patch heir purpose is to:
-Clear the xelnaga towers
-Monitor the zerg's third base timing
-Spot any incoming all-ins
2. Siege tanks should make defending any midgame all ins much easier to deal with without losing too much. If you see hatch-gas-pool or hatch-pool-gas openings i think you should definitely be more wary of all ins and you should make siegemode a greater priority after the 2 hellions. If their all-in fails you will be in a superb position and you can almost be certain that they wont have upgrades......you could even reach 2-2 when they are still at 0-0 after that and once you attack it will almost certainly be unstoppable......i'm pretty sure no amount of 0-0 zerg units will stop 2-2 marines with decent micro....
3. This build aims for a massive timing push on 12:30-13:00 with about 140-150ish food with stim, combat shields, 2/2 and +1 vehicle weapons on 3 bases. 2/2 I feel will rip apart ling muta and make multi-pronged drops super hard to deal with for a zerg who is behind on upgrades - even if they manage to clean it up, a follow up push when 3/3 finishes on about 16-ish minutes will almost certainly be too devastating for the zerg.
I sort of created this build because I was frustrated that most attacks like marine hellion medivac gets cleaned up too easily by mass lings+ a handful of roaches and usually they go for early upgrades and transition into infestor ling.
Any opinion on the viability of this build? Any comments/improvements to this will be much appreciated!Last edit: 2012-05-14 20:12:49 |
|
|
| Daedalus SEA May 14 2012 20:08. Posts 50 | Profile # |
Good read. Will try this out since my TvZ matchup is the only one struggling at the moment. Still need to be careful of them Infestors and banelings though. Funglas aren't affected by armor. I'll let you know when I test it out.  |
|
|
| Antylamon United States. May 14 2012 20:12. Posts 1363 | Profile # |
| It looks like you're on 1rax way too long. If I were a zerg seeing 1rax no reactor and a cc with a ling poke with my first few lings, I would just go for a roach/ling all-in. Last edit: 2012-05-14 20:13:09 |
|
|
| monkybone May 14 2012 20:18. Posts 2874 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 20:12 Antylamon wrote:
It looks like you're on 1rax way too long. If I were a zerg seeing 1rax no reactor and a cc with a ling poke with my first few lings, I would just go for a roach/ling all-in.
Why would you assume that there were no more rax? |
|
|
| TemujinGK Scotland. May 14 2012 20:20. Posts 407 | Profile Blog # |
In the build order I think you mean @150 minerals throw down 2 gas not @150 gas through down 2 gas.
On May 14 2012 20:12 Antylamon wrote:
It looks like you're on 1rax way too long. If I were a zerg seeing 1rax no reactor and a cc with a ling poke with my first few lings, I would just go for a roach/ling all-in.
Also I disagree with this. I think you need to be active in scouting, as long as you have constant production, you can reactively compensate for any all in once you see the bling or roach next/warren respectively.
Nice guide, I'll give it a shot.
EDIT:
Also in general I like that this is trying to exploit a very specific timing, but isn't all in at all. I'm looking forward to more builds like this that operate under mid-late game situations.
That being said, I don't know how I feel about the potential medivac count, because double ups + factory production is going to be kinda rough on the gas count, so you might have a narrow window that the zerg can exploit when your tank and medvac counts are low.Last edit: 2012-05-14 20:22:46 |
| | "Pikachu and Protoss are both yellow, Coincidence?" ~apexMorroW "I want to win. Everything." -qxc. | ROOT Gaming| Minigun |qxc |Fitzyhere |Catz |Drewbie |DdoRo |Sheth |Destiny |pUck |Masa |
|
|
| DKR United Kingdom. May 14 2012 20:33. Posts 592 | Profile Blog # |
This is the same theory crafting as Bomber's TvZ build, I feel his is safer and more viable but, in a metagame with zergs taking fast thirds before doing anything 80% of the time I could see this working. My big problem is that it feels light on units and I'd be worried about all-ins; I'm also in diamond and for three games in a row I got attempting baneling busts and I mean high econ busts, not crappy 1/2 base ones.
I'd feel safer hellion FE into this off of three gas straight away, if you take map control you can afford to upgrade and tech and it would still feel safer than this build.Last edit: 2012-05-14 20:36:39 |
| | "1 base. Cheese man." - MKP. "[MVP] is not stylistic, his style is winning, which is the style you want to have." - Artosis |
|
|
| Azera Singapore. May 14 2012 20:44. Posts 3367 | Profile Blog # |
On May 14 2012 20:33 DKR wrote:
This is the same theory crafting as Bomber's TvZ build, I feel his is safer and more viable but, in a metagame with zergs taking fast thirds before doing anything 80% of the time I could see this working. My big problem is that it feels light on units and I'd be worried about all-ins; I'm also in diamond and for three games in a row I got attempting baneling busts and I mean high econ busts, not crappy 1/2 base ones.
I'd feel safer hellion FE into this off of three gas straight away, if you take map control you can afford to upgrade and tech and it would still feel safer than this build.
Like this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=301257
? |
| | Trudge comfortably | Check out some glorious music made by TLers - http://bit.ly/QXYhdb , by intrigue. http://bit.ly/RTjpOR , by ohsea.toc. | |
|
|
| DKR United Kingdom. May 14 2012 20:57. Posts 592 | Profile Blog # |
On May 14 2012 20:44 Azera wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 20:33 DKR wrote:
This is the same theory crafting as Bomber's TvZ build, I feel his is safer and more viable but, in a metagame with zergs taking fast thirds before doing anything 80% of the time I could see this working. My big problem is that it feels light on units and I'd be worried about all-ins; I'm also in diamond and for three games in a row I got attempting baneling busts and I mean high econ busts, not crappy 1/2 base ones.
I'd feel safer hellion FE into this off of three gas straight away, if you take map control you can afford to upgrade and tech and it would still feel safer than this build.
Like this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=301257?
That's the one I'm talking about yes! |
| | "1 base. Cheese man." - MKP. "[MVP] is not stylistic, his style is winning, which is the style you want to have." - Artosis |
|
|
| monkybone May 14 2012 21:05. Posts 2874 | Profile # |
| I personally believe banshees are the future of early game TvZ. Banshee/raven can be used like maru did in the gstl final vs july to deny creep. Last edit: 2012-05-14 21:06:20 |
|
|
| ArcticFox United States. May 14 2012 21:30. Posts 654 | Profile # |
Specific timing stuff:
You need to get siege mode more quickly. Yes, I know in the replay that you used you lifted your Factory before it finished, but even then it was slated to finish around the 9:10 mark. If you're going for a safe, blind defensive build, it absolutely must include Siege Mode completing before 8:30. That's when the roach/bane all-in would hit. A well-positioned bunker can stop roach/ling, but you have to have the 8:30 tanks for the bane version.
That was an amazingly quick 3/3. But what do you plan to do with it? Are you planning on just sitting and then attacking at 16 and doing nothing else before then? 16 minutes is just a *little* too late to push out if you did no harass by then (16 minute is when an unmolested Zerg's ultras would pop in a standard ling/infestor/ultra comp. I'm pretty sure that's the brood timing as well, if the muta harass was skipped or very light) The timing for your push needs to be more centered on hitting a 13-14 minute timing if you're trying the mass macro style, as you'll catch zergs right as they're trying to transition into Hive tech.
------------------------
So what does this mean for tweaking your build? I would definitely throw in a Bomber style 3rd CC very early, quite possibly before the factory goes up, or perhaps directly after if you want to rush getting the gas for a faster siege + keep the same upgrade timings. I might be more inclined to slow down the upgrades just a touch -- I'm thinking along the lines of going for a 3rd CC directly after rax, gassing up, starting the factory as you're building the E-bays, and instead of shooting for a 16-ish 3/3, slow it down for more of a 14 min 2/2 and go for a push out around that timing. It will get you to 3/3 by the 18 minute mark if you time it right.
This was my attempt at a TvZ macro style build from a few days ago: http://drop.sc/179503
It's a close replication of Bomber's TvZ vs. Zenio from last week, except I wanted to try to get Medivacs out too without cutting into the marine count too much, and I tried getting faster double E-Bays as well, but I mistimed the 2/2 and it's about a minute later than I wanted. I think this is more of the direction that the macro style TvZs will be going, though. You could probably slow down the rax additions and get the E-Bays more quickly if you want the 2/2 to finish faster, but it will probably cut into your marine count a touch.
Edit: Saw your comment about the 13 minute pushout with 2/2. With the build you went for, you don't have enough units to make this work imo. Any ling/infestor comp would swarm and end you (and very likely also be 2/2). This push would more or less only work if you'd already held an all-in of some sort, it would die to standard defensive play.Last edit: 2012-05-14 21:53:47 |
|
|
| MstrJinbo United States. May 14 2012 22:23. Posts 778 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 20:18 monkybone wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 20:12 Antylamon wrote:
It looks like you're on 1rax way too long. If I were a zerg seeing 1rax no reactor and a cc with a ling poke with my first few lings, I would just go for a roach/ling all-in.
Why would you assume that there were no more rax?
They don't assume that. Plenty of Zerg will just blind allin if they scout a 1 Rax expand in the hopes that the Terran is teching (which this build is doing by the way). It's a dumb metagame thing.
|
|
|
| vBr Sweden. May 14 2012 22:40. Posts 175 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 22:23 MstrJinbo wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 20:18 monkybone wrote:
On May 14 2012 20:12 Antylamon wrote:
It looks like you're on 1rax way too long. If I were a zerg seeing 1rax no reactor and a cc with a ling poke with my first few lings, I would just go for a roach/ling all-in.
Why would you assume that there were no more rax?
They don't assume that. Plenty of Zerg will just blind allin if they scout a 1 Rax expand in the hopes that the Terran is teching (which this build is doing by the way). It's a dumb metagame thing.
Might be, but without tanks you have a pretty high chance of succeeding as well so its not very dumb. |
|
|
| Clazziquai10 Singapore. May 15 2012 00:36. Posts 921 | Profile Blog # |
Thanks for all the comments! Once again I’m no expert by I’ll try to address the belowmentioned concerns with my diamond league knowledge.
On May 14 2012 20:12 Antylamon wrote:
It looks like you're on 1rax way too long. If I were a zerg seeing 1rax no reactor and a cc with a ling poke with my first few lings, I would just go for a roach/ling all-in.
I feel like any roach-ling all in prior to 7:30-8:00 can be held with 2 bunkers with scv repair (with possibly the one tank that pops during that period shooting down roaches). Walling off your natural should be high on your priority list anyway, and the 2 hellions are there to spot any roach ling all in as well. I feel like your hellions should be clearing the xelnaga towers immediately after it pops and run straight to the zerg’s natural to just check out stuff – if you spot roaches, get a second bunker immediately.
On May 14 2012 20:33 DKR wrote:
This is the same theory crafting as Bomber's TvZ build, I feel his is safer and more viable but, in a metagame with zergs taking fast thirds before doing anything 80% of the time I could see this working. My big problem is that it feels light on units and I'd be worried about all-ins; I'm also in diamond and for three games in a row I got attempting baneling busts and I mean high econ busts, not crappy 1/2 base ones.
I'd feel safer hellion FE into this off of three gas straight away, if you take map control you can afford to upgrade and tech and it would still feel safer than this build.
I actually did try out reactor hellion expo (12 rax 13 gas) into quick double ups, but I feel like I’m really short of resources if I do that. My double ups start at 8+ mins instead and I can’t really go into a quick 3rd CC if I spot a fast third without compromising production/depots/scvs.
I’ve also tried the 12 rax 15 gas variant but once again I feel more comfortable with just straight up 1 rax expo
@ arcticfox – Upon further refinement of my build I can actually get 2 tanks with siege done by 8:10-8:20, sorry if the replay didn’t manage to meet that timing. And the plan is to originally push with 2/2, stim+CS, and +1 vehicle weapons at around the 13 min mark with about 140 food.
On May 14 2012 22:40 vBr wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:23 MstrJinbo wrote:
They don't assume that. Plenty of Zerg will just blind allin if they scout a 1 Rax expand in the hopes that the Terran is teching (which this build is doing by the way). It's a dumb metagame thing.
Might be, but without tanks you have a pretty high chance of succeeding as well so its not very dumb.
Well, to be honest, a hard and well executed ling baneling bust off 2 base with hatch-gas-pool and 21-droneish can hit as early as before 7 mins, way before you have any kind of tech or significant army to hold it off if you 1 rax expo. If I run out with my hellions and see a ton of lings with a smattering of banelings rolling towards me I will probably evacuate my natural asap, and just leave the bunker there with like 1-2 marines to eat up baneling damage. The key in defence would be, I guess, in my diamond league opinion, to delay the waves of attack until your siege is done. Wall off with your command centre if necessary. Put down a bunker or two at the top of your ramp. The nice thing about having tanks with siege in defence is that you can break out of your main really soon after you have it, and you’ll be ahead, provided you did evacuate early and didn’t lose too many SCVs.
As for other type of early game all-ins:
-Roach-ling as I had mentioned earlier, a decent wall off and 2 bunkers with SCV repair should be sufficient in my opinion.
-Roach baneling all-in: These would probably hit after siege is done. I assume it’s something like the 8:40 roach baneling all-in everyone is talking about that people like DRG and violet have been doing recently. I believe you can safely stop it without too much damage with 2 tanks with siege mode.
Just to add on, some people might ask: why not just scan to see if zerg is all-inning or not? My answer to that is: Well, say you scan the main, his roach warren might be in his natural, if you happen to spot his roach warren, he might just be making defensive roaches, so in my opinion, you should just have the 2 hellions around to see if his all-in is coming. If you see a lot of lings, just get a second bunker up and complete the wall off. If you see roaches moving across the map, you should have ample time to get another bunker up if you put it down immediately.
|
|
|
| MstrJinbo United States. May 15 2012 01:02. Posts 778 | Profile # |
Just to add on, some people might ask: why not just scan to see if zerg is all-inning or not? My answer to that is: Well, say you scan the main, his roach warren might be in his natural, if you happen to spot his roach warren, he might just be making defensive roaches, so in my opinion, you should just have the 2 hellions around to see if his all-in is coming. If you see a lot of lings, just get a second bunker up and complete the wall off. If you see roaches moving across the map, you should have ample time to get another bunker up if you put it down immediately.
You can check the drone count on the natural with a scan. If the drone count is lower than expected then he's either terrible or allining you. |
|
|
| Clazziquai10 Singapore. May 15 2012 02:14. Posts 921 | Profile Blog # | |
|
|
| OOmpa May 15 2012 02:22. Posts 15 | Profile # |
I have been using a build i saw MKP do vs DRG.
http://drop.sc/174240
Its a 1 rax FE with fast 2 x ebay.
The problems I have been having with this build is vs zerg all-ins, but I guess that can be defended if I scout and react accordingly with bunkers etc. |
|
|
| | |
|
|
|
| |
|
Sidebar Settings...
|
Store
