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 ashortstory Brazil. May 16 2012 16:02. Posts 160 | Profile # |
I`m high master in Europe and NA, and because of lack of openings against Terrans, I started doing the old, safe and standard 14 gas / 14 pool. It is really commom against Zerg and Prottos, but I`ve never seen someone using it in a pro level. Suddenly, I feel like It`s really really good against how the terrans nowadays play. They like to make 1 barrack followed by an expo... if you have enough time until the speed is done, you pretty much have a huge advantage in the game. Bunker will not damage as terran would want to, since it`s speedling, and 2 hellions wouldn`t be enough to kill them, because with this zerg opening you have a lot of lings for the first 5 minutes of the game. You can even kill some marines who are in the tower trying to get some map control (of course they won`t do that if they properly scout, but because of the greedy style they don`t even scout that usually like before).
While you attack him with this kind of speedlings, delaying his expo, you can pretty much make a lot of drones and even considering doing a risk play like fast mutas (It`s really really risk and by doing that with this opening, you can die in the 8-9 min mark.. but if the risk pays off, you have the game). You can also consider macro like a god mode, making a macro hatch and establishing a dominant position in the game. Of course You expo after making the first 4 lings.
What do you guys think about that? I honestly think It`s a good strategy to counter what mostly of terrans have been doing lately, which is that really fast expo. And the reason I`m doing that is because I`m sick of doing 15 hatchery all the time and they do almost the same with their CC.
By the way, the last 3 terrans I played with, I used this strategy. One of them died in the 5:30 min mark (who could imagine...? Kill a terran that fast!!)... He made a CC after a rax and didn`t close his main ramp in Shakuras (the one that connects to the expo)... with speedlings in 5 min mark, that was over...
I`m not so sure how this matchup worked in like 1 and a half to 2 years ago, but I feel like zergs have been doing the same thing over and over against terran (I mean the early metagame).. Some zergs try to delay the gas as much as possible, like making them at the 5:30 mark, or get a safer option like 15h/15g/15p... none of these is agressive enough to scare/delay the terran. I know two things: either I`m being really silly for doing that and It was just luck the games I used this strategy, or this is so so so simple, and yet, powerful, that no one really thought about it (in terms of playing against the greedy terran style)Last edit: 2012-05-16 16:25:04 |
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| Moosegills United States. May 16 2012 16:11. Posts 471 | Profile # |
If you go 14 14 you will die to normal hellion expand vs anyone that knows what they are doing. It also makes it more difficult against 2 rax because you investment in speed is worthless since the 2 rax will hit before its done.
The only build that a terran does that you don't get way behind automatically vs is a 1 rax CC (even though you will still be behind) |
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| ashortstory Brazil. May 16 2012 16:18. Posts 160 | Profile # |
On May 16 2012 16:11 Moosegills wrote:
If you go 14 14 you will die to normal hellion expand vs anyone that knows what they are doing. It also makes it more difficult against 2 rax because you investment in speed is worthless since the 2 rax will hit before its done.
The only build that a terran does that you don't get way behind automatically vs is a 1 rax CC (even though you will still be behind)
Thing is, I don`t think anyone should be one-trick-pony in this game. I don`t like the idea of doing the 15 hatchery all the time against Terrans.. I think the 14/14 is a gamble indeed, but It can really punishes what Terrans have been doing lately. If he goes hellion expand and you see that just make 4 lings and keep macroing until your hatch is done. With the queen update, 2 rax is easier to deal with, and honestly 1 base terran 2 rax against 1 base zerg 14/14 for the first minutes of the game is not that hard for zerg to defend... I even think its way easier (but I haven`t been exposed to this scenario though).
The game is all about this: greedy style > safe style > cheesy/all-in style > greedy style. Somehow the 14/14 against terran is all between that for the 5-6 min of the game. Of course this statregy makes you less economic viable but you can be very greedy after the agressive play.Last edit: 2012-05-16 16:22:39 |
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| LeLfe France. May 16 2012 16:29. Posts 2346 | Profile # |
On May 16 2012 16:18 ashortstory wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 16:11 Moosegills wrote:
If you go 14 14 you will die to normal hellion expand vs anyone that knows what they are doing. It also makes it more difficult against 2 rax because you investment in speed is worthless since the 2 rax will hit before its done.
The only build that a terran does that you don't get way behind automatically vs is a 1 rax CC (even though you will still be behind)
Thing is, I don`t think anyone should be one-trick-pony in this game. I don`t like the idea of doing the 15 hatchery all the time against Terrans.. I think the 14/14 is a gamble indeed, but It can really punishes what Terrans have been doing lately. If he goes hellion expand and you see that just make 4 lings and keep macroing until your hatch is done. With the queen update, 2 rax is easier to deal with, and honestly 1 base terran 2 rax against 1 base zerg 14/14 for the first minutes of the game is not that hard for zerg to defend... I even think its way easier (but I haven`t been exposed to this scenario though). The game is all about this: greedy style > safe style > cheesy/all-in style > greedy style. Somehow the 14/14 against terran is all between that for the 5-6 min of the game. Of course this statregy makes you less economic viable but you can be very greedy after the agressive play.
do you have a replay where it punishes the Terran? as it's really easy to scout I don't see any high level terran getting abused by a 14-14 |
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| Belial88 United States. May 16 2012 16:58. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
there was some pro zerg who did this a few months ago in zvt... i want to say it was on dual sight, it was definitely in the gsl, but that's all i remember.
he went 14/14/21, made a few drones, and then just massed lings and just send like 30-40 lings at his opponent that hit around 40ish supply or so?
it looked pretty hilarious, the guy had 1 bunker and maybe some hellions or something, he just wrecked him.
it's a cute all-in but takes such a huge chance hoping the opponent doesn't wall correctly and screws up, something that even diamond terrans do right most of the time. It's not like roach/bane all-in, which is banking on say, terran going fast third, or ling/bane all-in against a terran who doesn't make a factory, which are all-ins that are just as much a coinflip, but are almost guaranteed to work against certain builds executed by even the best of players.
The problem with doing this is to make enough lings to overcome, say, the quick hellions from a reactor hellion expand, will seriously hurt your econ so much that T will be fien if he just lifts off and loses only a half dozen scvs at most, although he should see it coming with his hellions. |
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| Andreas Norway. May 16 2012 17:29. Posts 214 | Profile Blog # |
| Walling one side of the initial bunker should handle any amount of speedlings, especially as hellions are coming out. You'll probably be able to get a fair number of SCV kills in any case, but I think other types of aggression after 15hatch are better if this is what you want to achieve - and if you go 15hatch you won't be behind vs anyone who doesn't go 1rax expand. |
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| Gamegene United States. May 16 2012 17:34. Posts 6845 | Profile Blog # |
A really popular and much more elegant solution on the Korean server is to just make your hatchery first at 15, get your assimilator before your spawning pool and hit a speedling timing attack just before his reactored hellions pop out with double gas. You get a quick snipe on the bunker, and kill 4-5 SCVs.
This depends on you drone scouting and using your overlords to know that he is going for a 1 barracks expansion, and that he is following up with reactored hellion and not barracks play. If he's not doing the above, well then you can play your regular game without having to face the terran greed that you dislike so much.
14/14, in the hopes that he somehow doesn't scout it, and that he somehow doesn't immediately build a bunker is just blind coinflipping that'll put you really far behind. Last edit: 2012-05-16 17:37:17 |
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| Shibbxyz United Kingdom. May 16 2012 17:39. Posts 91 | Profile # |
If you want to open more safe but aggressive try my roach pressure build, you go 15p/17h/17g ling to scout, roach warren down start queen and overlord stop mining gas at 76 make 3 roaches and 2nd queen then pressure while droning behind it.
If they hellion expo you can snipe a hellion just as it leaves his base when your roaches show up, if he goes 1 rax expo snipe any marines and if he has bunker up poke around or just leave don't bother losing the roaches. If you get to his base and he has nothing no bunker and only a supply depo wall just kill the depo's and scvs that come to repair but you don't need to go in his base to kill stuff he will bring it to the wall, not losing the 3 roaches means you can drone even harder
I've been meaning to make a formal TL post on my build as i've been using it on ladder successfully for over a year now and i've not had one situation where I felt I couldn't hold that early cheese or damn now I'm miles behind. It requires decent micro though as 3 roaches die so fast to a handful of marines if left on there own but at the same time 3 roaches can kill many marines if you just have simple micro.
Theres also tons of meta game play as well, if they scout the roach warren you can not make any roachs while they sit and defend, or cancel the roach warren altogether and take fast 3rd. 3 roaches can also be used to kill rocks knowing the opponent is defending accordingly you don't even need to go to there base the ling you have tells you if he is being greedy or playing safe.Last edit: 2012-05-16 17:39:57 |
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| iaguz Australia. May 16 2012 17:44. Posts 1265 | Profile Blog # |
| A lot of really good terrans are highly suspicious about mass ling strategies so they keep the bunker placed well back, very close the the SCV line and usually somewhere very hard to surround. With decent enough reflexes they can get 4-5 scvs on the bunker and the depots at the wall off raised before lings can surround anything. After that if you're going hellions, 4-6 hellions can throw back all the lings and the terran is chilling with a pretty solid advantage now. |
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| TheMaXiM United States. May 16 2012 19:02. Posts 34 | Profile # |
| Well if he just throws down another CC and defends then you're pretty much behind and will have to do somekind of baneling bust or something to catch up. Just my opinion. |
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| Squigly United Kingdom. May 16 2012 20:10. Posts 629 | Profile # |
| Yea, this seems like just a poorly thought through all in. Dont get me wrong, im sure it works, however you make it seem like a 'pressure into macro' build, and its just plain not. |
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| Belial88 United States. May 16 2012 21:28. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
On May 16 2012 17:39 Shibbxyz wrote:
If you want to open more safe but aggressive try my roach pressure build, you go 15p/17h/17g ling to scout, roach warren down start queen and overlord stop mining gas at 76 make 3 roaches and 2nd queen then pressure while droning behind it.
If they hellion expo you can snipe a hellion just as it leaves his base when your roaches show up, if he goes 1 rax expo snipe any marines and if he has bunker up poke around or just leave don't bother losing the roaches. If you get to his base and he has nothing no bunker and only a supply depo wall just kill the depo's and scvs that come to repair but you don't need to go in his base to kill stuff he will bring it to the wall, not losing the 3 roaches means you can drone even harder
I've been meaning to make a formal TL post on my build as i've been using it on ladder successfully for over a year now and i've not had one situation where I felt I couldn't hold that early cheese or damn now I'm miles behind. It requires decent micro though as 3 roaches die so fast to a handful of marines if left on there own but at the same time 3 roaches can kill many marines if you just have simple micro.
Theres also tons of meta game play as well, if they scout the roach warren you can not make any roachs while they sit and defend, or cancel the roach warren altogether and take fast 3rd. 3 roaches can also be used to kill rocks knowing the opponent is defending accordingly you don't even need to go to there base the ling you have tells you if he is being greedy or playing safe.
If you only kill 4-5 SCVs with taking a fast gas for ling speed and making that many lings, you will be the one behind. If you make a roach warren and mine gas right after pool, killing just a depot will put you extremely far behind. You say it doesnt, but i really can't imagine you can still even play in the game like that. rep? |
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| Starshaped Sweden. May 16 2012 21:47. Posts 575 | Profile Blog # |
Going 15hatch every ZvT doesn't make you a "one-trick pony" simply because there are a lot of follow-ups, from quick 3rd to 2base tech to all-ins etc.
14/14 is just awful in every way against Terran. There's literally no advantage to be gained. The few times I don't see 15hatch from Zerg I always breathe a sigh of relief, because I know I'm now at an advantage.
14/14 gets abused pretty hard by reactor hellion, and having a lot of lings early isn't really a good thing, as you would much rather have drones. |
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| Shibbxyz United Kingdom. May 16 2012 22:51. Posts 91 | Profile # |
On May 16 2012 21:28 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 17:39 Shibbxyz wrote:
If you want to open more safe but aggressive try my roach pressure build, you go 15p/17h/17g ling to scout, roach warren down start queen and overlord stop mining gas at 76 make 3 roaches and 2nd queen then pressure while droning behind it.
If they hellion expo you can snipe a hellion just as it leaves his base when your roaches show up, if he goes 1 rax expo snipe any marines and if he has bunker up poke around or just leave don't bother losing the roaches. If you get to his base and he has nothing no bunker and only a supply depo wall just kill the depo's and scvs that come to repair but you don't need to go in his base to kill stuff he will bring it to the wall, not losing the 3 roaches means you can drone even harder
I've been meaning to make a formal TL post on my build as i've been using it on ladder successfully for over a year now and i've not had one situation where I felt I couldn't hold that early cheese or damn now I'm miles behind. It requires decent micro though as 3 roaches die so fast to a handful of marines if left on there own but at the same time 3 roaches can kill many marines if you just have simple micro.
Theres also tons of meta game play as well, if they scout the roach warren you can not make any roachs while they sit and defend, or cancel the roach warren altogether and take fast 3rd. 3 roaches can also be used to kill rocks knowing the opponent is defending accordingly you don't even need to go to there base the ling you have tells you if he is being greedy or playing safe.
If you only kill 4-5 SCVs with taking a fast gas for ling speed and making that many lings, you will be the one behind. If you make a roach warren and mine gas right after pool, killing just a depot will put you extremely far behind. You say it doesnt, but i really can't imagine you can still even play in the game like that. rep?
You make 1 set of ling's to scout and 3 roaches its a very small investment much smaller than you would think. You are technically behind in eco for a bit while they have a mule up but straight after that you are ahead because you have suddenly full saturation on 2 base and a 3rd up. Chances are you kill 1 or 2 scvs that are outside there base building bunkers etc putting you further ahead.
I'll post a replay when I get back home |
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| MysticaL Canada. May 16 2012 23:03. Posts 86 | Profile # |
My main is T, and I don't really think it's a bad build.
I think it can trick a lot of terrans into thinking you're doing an all-in like a baneling bust, because speedlings deny scouts SO easily (they absolutely HAVE to scan your main base for bane nest, OR wall blindly).
You won't have enough drones to saturate 2 bases anyways, and if you see a terran walling, you don't have to commit to making so many lings
Speedlings give you great map control, and reactor hellion isn't as popular because of the new queen range buff. You have to be more careful about banshees because you stay on 1 hatch longer, but I think this isn't a problem anymore with good scouting and the overlord speed buff
Anyway, moving out with terran isn't really an option, 2 raxing also is an OPTION, but it's a stupid option because a speedling opener owns 2 rax easily
How do you switch out of it? I honestly think you can safely add +2 hatcheries (either +2 base, or nat+macro hatch) after the speedling open (assuming you don't make 40 lings and just all in, just make like 20 lol...)
Chances are, if you can't punish a terran with 20 lings so early in the game, 40 lings prolly won't work either (20 should be easily enough to kill a bunker, but 20-40 doesnt matter when there's a wall)Last edit: 2012-05-16 23:08:10 |
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| teamamerica United States. May 16 2012 23:38. Posts 660 | Profile Blog # |
I don't see how this does any damage to a Terran who does any scout before they put down their expo. I mean if they 1rax CC to lowground then you can do some dmg, force a cancel and maybe catch their wall down. But any Terran who scouts no 15hat should build 1rax cc on high ground at worst, or if they're going 13gas hellions just proceed as normal. Kind of have to be careful of roaches is all but otherwise it's ok. This is basic play that I'm expecting every Terran to be able to do, not anything too crazy. If they 1rax CC into double gas hellions, they can just build hellions normally, save mule energy from 2nd oc so no maining out main too fast, and then secure nat with hellions, call down a ton of mules, and be ahead.
I'd also agree with anyone who said just go 15hat (15,16) pool, gas, into a speedling timing with like 30 lings. Puts you a bit behind if they defend, but maybe you can get good at playing this out, plus more likely to do dmg as no 15hat should set off alarm bells in T. They can afford the scan from 1rax cc to check if bling allin and seeing speedling expo isn't scary really.
Although maybe I'm wrong and people on ladder just overreact horribly/play far too greedily. Idk.
^At guy above me, also if you're going 12/14 2rax, 14/14 isn't the best either. If T keeps building marines constantly, you're never too safe to drone. If anything it really slows done when you'd be droning (can't stop at 6lings, late expo means spine has to go down in main and move down) while 12/14 2rax has constant scv production + fast expo.
Quickest allin I know vs T that has potential to do dmg is Julyzergs fast bling bust, with 15hat but skipping queens for more lings early. Has 15hat so has potential to be ignored by T(I mean it's more likely they ignore drone count/gas timing then missing the fact Z has no hatchery). |
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| gitarrojoe Germany. May 16 2012 23:42. Posts 69 | Profile # |
I just compared this opening to Stephanos zvt build and i will try the 14/14. If u play Stephano style you want to get some roaches before taking the third (roach warren goes down around 6 min, 36-43 supply depending on opponent strat) At this point you will have 3 queens,30-34ish drones Stephano style/3queens 30 Drones with 14/14.Then i wonderd what i should do against hellions, but you can make 3 queens as soon as possible from your main hatch and be alright. there is no reason not to put down a spine if you dont feel safe, or make a bunch of zerglings. Now after building roaches the 2 evo chambers that usually can be thrown down at 7 min, will be delayed i think but even that shouldnt be to big of a deal.
I actually build only 1 pair of lings at the beginning and then the drone wich i would rally to the natural to make my expansion. after the first inject your lngs should scout the opponent and than you can decide if u want to build more lings-> send 2nd queen to inject, or go drones-> just make creep and you will be fine.Last edit: 2012-05-16 23:50:30 |
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| Wortie Netherlands. May 16 2012 23:47. Posts 211 | Profile # |
I do 14/14 once in a while, 1 time I got the lings up the ramp just as the factory switched with the barracks. The terran instantly quitted. 
I don't think it's such a bad opener. You guys always act like if you play perfect you can hold everything off. That may be true, but no player plays perfect all the time. Sometimes I just like to have an army around, it gives you something to work with and with better control you can make it pay off most ot the time. It doesn't mean your death too, if the push doesn't work, you just have a disadvantage. Things like that you can set right with some burrowed banelings too. 
Also the denying of scouting can let the terran prepare for multiple things, as he can't know all it is your doing.Last edit: 2012-05-16 23:48:57 |
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| BuiBui United States. May 17 2012 02:45. Posts 513 | Profile # |
Recently I have been opening up with 12 pool (Gerbil style).
I have not been going ALL IN, just make 6 lings and play the standard Liquid Ret style, (3 gas 4 queens, 2 evos, ect ect) So far it has been quite entertaining:
all proxy 2 rax, bunkers rushes. Flat out, dies.
All 1 rax, CC, or CC first, get very far behind from just the 6 lings,
you scout the helion expand before the helions, and have 4 queens + 1 spine by the time they get to your base.
It honestly feels just like a normal play style to me. Kinda like it actually. (current mid masters)
EDIT: Its actually even better when the terran scouts you because they freak right out and double up on bunkers and play off 1 base, while you expand and drone. ^_^Last edit: 2012-05-17 02:46:27 |
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| Mrvoodoochild1 United States. May 17 2012 03:01. Posts 1437 | Profile # |
| What happens when the terran just does a regular hellion expand or build's his expo inside his base? You invest in tech that is totally useless. Also opening 14/14 just limits your hand. Any terran with a brain that scouts a 14/14 will know that you plan to be aggressive and will just sit behind his wall off. If you want to be aggressive as zerg, from my experience you want to delay your gas as long as possible to allow early game scouting to show that you plan to play an eco game then take two gases at once and either do an eco bane/ ling bust of eco roach/bane/ bust. But 14/14 is just a bad opener in general. |
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