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| Universum Canada. May 17 2012 20:39. Posts 64 | Profile # |
I think when you choose to play random, battle.net should simply pick race for you and make it see to other players when loading games, no more "random" name of race.
I totally agree with that as I think people randoming should play random because they like all 3 races or can't choose only one instead (Not all people of course) of trying to find a little advantage in your opponent not knowing what race you play. I think It would make the game more fun for everyone. |
| | You often learn more from losing than winning. Don't rage, it's a game! |
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| Cyro United Kingdom. May 17 2012 20:40. Posts 5746 | Profile Blog # |
On May 16 2012 19:30 lorkac wrote:
Two perfect humans playing perfect games--random has an advantage.
Humans are not perfect and games are mostly scrappy--random has a disadvantage.
But he doesnt - because below the very very top of ladder, you are balanced to 50% winrate anyway. Guy with chosen race has 50% winrate, guy with random has 50% winrate, but is annoying as hell to play against, i dont even bother any more with PvX, as my pvp would be either 10gate or 12gate with no scout til core (to be really tight with minerals, it makes a significant difference in pvp with good split, stacking, etc), pvt would be 15 nex or 14gate (PartinG), and pvz would ALWAYS be 9pylon at nat for FFE.
If i have to 13gate in main i am at disadvantaged heavily vs zerg, behind vs protoss, and potentially behind vs terran, as randoms i have found like to play extreme styles, having met blind 15cc more than a few times. I dont see it as good practice, because if i met someone in any tournament, i simply wouldnt have a 13gate in any situation, and the delayed scout of the race REALLY hurts. |
| | Defender of Esports # "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88 # "there really isn’t any actual need to have the minerals and gas constantly displayed" - Blizzard |
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| Sated England. May 17 2012 20:55. Posts 3427 | Profile Blog # |
On May 17 2012 20:40 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 19:30 lorkac wrote:
Two perfect humans playing perfect games--random has an advantage.
Humans are not perfect and games are mostly scrappy--random has a disadvantage.
But he doesnt - because below the very very top of ladder, you are balanced to 50% winrate anyway. Guy with chosen race has 50% winrate, guy with random has 50% winrate, but is annoying as hell to play against, i dont even bother any more with PvX, as my pvp would be either 10gate or 12gate with no scout til core (to be really tight with minerals, it makes a significant difference in pvp with good split, stacking, etc), pvt would be 15 nex or 14gate (PartinG), and pvz would ALWAYS be 9pylon at nat for FFE. If i have to 13gate in main i am at disadvantaged heavily vs zerg, behind vs protoss, and potentially behind vs terran, as randoms i have found like to play extreme styles, having met blind 15cc more than a few times. I dont see it as good practice, because if i met someone in any tournament, i simply wouldnt have a 13gate in any situation, and the delayed scout of the race REALLY hurts.
You're looking at it wrong. PvR is the fourth match-up, you have to play it differently; you can't play it as if you are playing PvP or PvT or PvZ - you are playing PvR!
(Then again, I open Gateway/Core in PvZ, so I have 0 problems with playing against Random players aside from having to have my stuff near my ramp.)Last edit: 2012-05-17 20:55:34 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| Ace1123 Philippines. May 17 2012 21:05. Posts 1118 | Profile # |
On May 16 2012 18:36 teddyoojo wrote:
i hate when ppl dont tell me their race when randoming
User was warned for this post
I think it's their choice if they want to tell it or not, That is why there is a random
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| | ForGG, Mvp, MMA, MarineKing, BoxeR, |
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| ShatterZer0 United States. May 17 2012 21:06. Posts 1833 | Profile # |
On May 17 2012 02:26 PowerDes wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 23:47 ShatterZer0 wrote:
14 gate in PvP just about never loses you the game in PvP. The only situation you SHOULD absolutely lose from is if the opponent proxy 10-12 gate'd you blind on Tal'darim.
Otherwise 9 pylon scout into 14 gate is actually correct if you've been perfectly allocating chronoboosts.
Just saying.
The reason why there's no GM level Random player... is that most Pros can play each race at GM level but aren't dumb enough to waste time doing so. In fact, even since Broodwar Korean Pros have been encouraged to spend practice time playing each race and becoming pro level competent with each. A trend that hasn't changed in Korean SC2 teams.
I am a GM random player and I have Tal'darim veto'd. As for no random players in high level competition, I'll be at Anaheim for the World Championship Series for USA. As for random players cheesing, I think more people cheese random players.
Hahaha, awesome! Can't wait to see some good games!
But what I mean was that just about every Pro with an established team has the ability to be GM level random player at the drop of a hat... but to do it by "playing random" is a very inefficient way of doing so.
To be "random" on ladder means that the majority of one's games are played as a "random" and for practice, even for a player attempting to become a random competitive player, as such would be a poor way to allocate practice time. It would make sense for a random player to practice one race at a time so as to focus on what parts of the game they needed to get better at.
If this is true/makes sense, then Professional Random players would have their Ladder race change quite often as the balance of games played on ladder changed with their own practice schedule.
Or I'm just crazy ;P |
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| Whyterice May 17 2012 21:09. Posts 1 | Profile # |
| you can FFE against random, if it's protoss just cannon rush :D |
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| Mobius_1 United Kingdom. May 17 2012 21:23. Posts 2719 | Profile Blog # |
I random because it's fun, and there are some matchups that I go in and not know what to do at all, especially earlier when I first started playing Random. Also playing Random gets better portraits 
Of course it sucks to not have an "optimal" opening, and is quite problematic in some matchups where the R can be very greedy or aggressive and the P/T/Z be unprepared and fall behind. However the P/T/Z should have better mechanics in macro and micro and still have a decent shot at the game. That said all-ins and cheese do throw this balance off a lot.
In the end, I really don't think unrevealed race Random is broken, and given there's only a small percentage of Random players, and lower yet in higher level, (http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all) it's really not going to hurt ESPORTS. |
| | Starleague Forever. RIP KT Violet~ |
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| Belha Italy. May 17 2012 21:30. Posts 2364 | Profile # |
I dk about other races (Z have almost always similar openings), but for a P player, sux to play vs random. Vs Protoss you need to 12 gate to be safe, vs Z if you don't set a fast expansion build, you're behind, and vs T, you must have a game plan, either fast expansion with proper defenses ready or some rush. Vs random, all this get fucked up.
Pros don't go random, cose at that very very VERY high end level, they take about 8 hs per day to to practice all the 3 match ups. So if you add the other 6 match ups you have to learn (really LEARN, top top level of knowledge) , that would be...at least 8 more hours??
So there is almost no serious player using random, so no real tournament with random players, so there is no XvR match up to train, as some prolly lower level player sugested. I remember watching sase stream, he just ff every vsR game, he said it was a waste of time.
Last edit: 2012-05-17 21:38:04 |
| | Please Blizz buff speevacs for TvP! |
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| Schnullerbacke13 Germany. May 17 2012 22:34. Posts 1174 | Profile # |
I think Random does not give you a big advantage, it just is more coinflippy. A random player has two ways to profit from his advantage (a) early cheese or (b) macro cheese. So if you play against random you may play pretty cautious (this is what most players do) or pretty greedy (speculating the R player will do the same).
Since scouting information comes in too late most of the time (as Random you'll scout late to hide your race), both players need to decide blindly how to open. Ofc you can adapt based on scouting, but the decision wether to play cheese/safe/greedy openings is done pretty early in the game. |
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| Sbrubbles Brazil. May 17 2012 23:18. Posts 2183 | Profile # |
On May 16 2012 17:59 Thunderflesh wrote:
The slight advantage that you get by playing random—i.e., your opponent having to scout to learn your race—is heavily outweighed, IMO, by having to learn 9 match-ups as opposed to 3.
Second post in the thread nailed it. |
| | ZURGLINGS IN MAI BEISS !!! |
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| Novae_x May 17 2012 23:29. Posts 18 | Profile # |
People who specialize in one race QQ about Random for the same reason they QQ about other races - because they don't really know how to play that matchup, and they hope that whining will make Blizz buff their race or nerf the other races.
If you specialize in one race and are facing a Random, you only need to remember 2 things:
1) the Random player is playing a race that they have only played 33% of the time. (you play your race 100% of the time or close to it)
2) the Random player's ONLY advantage is that you don't know their race - at first. As soon as you scout them, advantage gone.
Losing to Random because you didn't scout is the same as losing to a timing push or cheese because you didn't scout.
As far as the game loading screen, I play Random and want you to know you're not facing someone who plays a single race. If you don't like the fact that you don't know my race (I don't know it either until the game actually starts), ask Blizzard to hide BOTH races in every matchup - that's as fair as it gets.Last edit: 2012-05-17 23:30:23 |
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| JDub United States. May 17 2012 23:54. Posts 904 | Profile # |
To sum up what others have posted:
1) Playing against random usually means you have to use a sub-optimal BO. This depends a bit on which race you play. Seems like Protoss is hit hardest by it, there are many posts going into more depth here. This means random players should be able to have a build order advantage starting the game.
2) Random players have to learn 9 match-ups, and will thus be less knowledgeable/experienced/comfortable in any given match-up, especially as the game goes on longer.
Obviously, at the highest level, the disadvantage of #2 heavily outweighs the advantage of #1, as there have been very few random players to do well at the highest level, and most of them have since picked a race and done better than they did as Random (for example, Gumiho first broke into the GSL as Random, didn't get very far, and is now a much stronger player as Terran).
I think people should keep a couple things in mind -- first, a sub-optimal build order is not the same thing as a build order loss. People are saying that 13 gate or 14 gate is a BO loss in PvP, or that opening 12 gate puts you super far behind in PvT or PvZ. Unless you are very high masters, GM, or pro-level, these tiny differences and razor thin timings are not going to be game breaking for you.
Second, you can win games even if you start slightly behind with a sub-optimal BO. Play safe, get into a macro game, and beat the Random player in the long game. |
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| TheExodus May 18 2012 00:00. Posts 293 | Profile # |
On May 17 2012 23:54 JDub wrote:
To sum up what others have posted:
1) Playing against random usually means you have to use a sub-optimal BO. This depends a bit on which race you play. Seems like Protoss is hit hardest by it, there are many posts going into more depth here. This means random players should be able to have a build order advantage starting the game.
2) Random players have to learn 9 match-ups, and will thus be less knowledgeable/experienced/comfortable in any given match-up, especially as the game goes on longer.
Obviously, at the highest level, the disadvantage of #2 heavily outweighs the advantage of #1, as there have been very few random players to do well at the highest level, and most of them have since picked a race and done better than they did as Random (for example, Gumiho first broke into the GSL as Random, didn't get very far, and is now a much stronger player as Terran).
I think people should keep a couple things in mind -- first, a sub-optimal build order is not the same thing as a build order loss. People are saying that 13 gate or 14 gate is a BO loss in PvP, or that opening 12 gate puts you super far behind in PvT or PvZ. Unless you are very high masters, GM, or pro-level, these tiny differences and razor thin timings are not going to be game breaking for you.
Second, you can win games even if you start slightly behind with a sub-optimal BO. Play safe, get into a macro game, and beat the Random player in the long game.
+1. Multiple times.
Also, 12-gate is fine against all races really, you delay some builds by a few seconds, not a biggie. I always do it against zerg and protoss, and I've seen tons of pros do it against terran. |
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| Snoodles May 18 2012 00:09. Posts 393 | Profile # |
| Your build order doesn't need to be optimal vs Random because their build order isn't optimal vs you. |
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| RonNation United States. May 18 2012 01:04. Posts 337 | Profile Blog # |
As a random plat player I like to go macro builds every game :D (maybe not TvT). To me it's a lot more fun trying to copy the pros builds while defending against angries trying to all-in me because I chose random.
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| Cyro United Kingdom. May 18 2012 01:07. Posts 5746 | Profile Blog # |
On May 18 2012 00:09 Snoodles wrote:
Your build order doesn't need to be optimal vs Random because their build order isn't optimal vs you.
He has more information than me and failing to make an optimal build order is a correctable problem for him, but not for me. Its a disadvantage and requires a different playing style than common high level PvZ, PvP or PvT. |
| | Defender of Esports # "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88 # "there really isn’t any actual need to have the minerals and gas constantly displayed" - Blizzard |
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| -Celestial- United Kingdom. May 18 2012 01:08. Posts 792 | Profile # |
As a Protoss I've found a very convenient solution to dealing with when my opponent is random.
My solution is to just proxy 2-gate all the things. Maybe I win, maybe I lose. Either way it gets the game out of the way. God knows most of the randoms I see either go for a super-greedy build or just cheese.
Totally screws up your opening and your building placement. Really annoying. |
| | "Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc |
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| Thruth Poland. May 18 2012 01:11. Posts 79 | Profile # |
On May 17 2012 20:40 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 19:30 lorkac wrote:
Two perfect humans playing perfect games--random has an advantage.
Humans are not perfect and games are mostly scrappy--random has a disadvantage.
But he doesnt - because below the very very top of ladder, you are balanced to 50% winrate anyway. Guy with chosen race has 50% winrate, guy with random has 50% winrate, but is annoying as hell to play against, i dont even bother any more with PvX, as my pvp would be either 10gate or 12gate with no scout til core (to be really tight with minerals, it makes a significant difference in pvp with good split, stacking, etc), pvt would be 15 nex or 14gate (PartinG), and pvz would ALWAYS be 9pylon at nat for FFE. If i have to 13gate in main i am at disadvantaged heavily vs zerg, behind vs protoss, and potentially behind vs terran, as randoms i have found like to play extreme styles, having met blind 15cc more than a few times. I dont see it as good practice, because if i met someone in any tournament, i simply wouldnt have a 13gate in any situation, and the delayed scout of the race REALLY hurts.
So if you 15 nex it's standard and if R 15 cc it's extremely greedy and blind?
Also I think it's stupid to say that everything exept for doing the same build over and over is a waste of time. Also some pros gate expand vs Z, wall of vs T and stuff like that. |
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| zmansman17 United States. May 18 2012 01:12. Posts 2181 | Profile # |
| IMMVP plays Random on Korea and is top 20 GM. |
| | ♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞ |
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| TheExodus May 18 2012 01:50. Posts 293 | Profile # |
On May 18 2012 01:12 zmansman17 wrote:
IMMVP plays Random on Korea and is top 20 GM.
But he's not human. |
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