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| VashTS United States. May 19 2012 16:01. Posts 1537 | Profile # |
I've been jungling for a little while now, but have run into a snag with my friend (which is much more experienced than I am). I'm pretty sure I have a good grasp on it, but I've been known to be wrong once in a while. I wanted to get other peoples opinion on this matter...
Earlier when playing a game with her, I was doing my jungling route with Lee Sin (starting Wraiths) like normal. After a gank, I continued and eventually went to the other side of and eventually got the Blue Buff. She didn't like that, saying that junglers should never get the Blue Buff when Mid needs it more (which was her; she was LeBlanc). I tried explaining that usually the 2nd spawn of the (Blue) Buff is the one that gets given out to mid because the jungler needs the first one for XP/Gold in order to help keep up in farm and to help with ganks (in general) (CD reduction for Lee).
So... Who's wrong, and why? Could one explain it for me so I get it (and explain it to her)? |
| | VashTS; 330; Random -- Ranked #9 Pokemon Video Game Player in the World in 2009 |
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| deskscaress United States. May 19 2012 16:08. Posts 223 | Profile # | |
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| VashTS United States. May 19 2012 16:28. Posts 1537 | Profile # |
| This really isn't much of a discussion, figured it didn't belong. You could've answered, though. =/ |
| | VashTS; 330; Random -- Ranked #9 Pokemon Video Game Player in the World in 2009 |
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| beefhamburger United States. May 19 2012 16:49. Posts 1822 | Profile # |
| You're right. I don't know if I can explain exactly why eloquently, but your reasoning is fine. |
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| deskscaress United States. May 19 2012 16:51. Posts 223 | Profile # |
On May 19 2012 16:28 VashTS wrote:
This really isn't much of a discussion, figured it didn't belong. You could've answered, though. =/
No, answering questions in their own topics that should be in the general topic validates those questions and those topics, which encourages more topics like this. By simply directing you to the general topic, people will learn to post simple questions there. |
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| SomniGiggles United Kingdom. May 19 2012 17:05. Posts 197 | Profile # |
| Yes, normally. As lee sin you can actually give blue away from the start but it is rarely a smart thing to do since you usually spend a lot of hp tanking the bastard until the guy finally kills it. Rule of thumb is 2nd blue is first blue for mid, unless you're amumu jungler and you keep steaingl that shit you steal that shit hard. Last edit: 2012-05-19 17:05:37 |
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| Terranasaur United States. May 19 2012 17:12. Posts 962 | Profile # |
All buffs belong to the jungler. You decide when to give them up.
That said. Lee really doesn't need blue, but neither does LB. Use your judgement, and if your mid complains, tell him to pound sand. |
| | Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 |
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| Ryuu314 United States. May 19 2012 18:14. Posts 5338 | Profile # |
The first buff is very important for the jungler since it gives a huge chunk of exp and gold. Unless your mid laner can get much more use out of it than you can, you should be hogging your buffs.
The reason why you pass on your buffs later is because after a certain point, most mid laners can use blue better than the jungler can. |
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| Kyo Yuy United States. May 19 2012 20:51. Posts 720 | Profile # |
From my experience, it depends.
If your gank succeeded and you find yourself significantly ahead due to kills/assists, it's okay to give your first blue to mid.
If you got no kills/assists from your gank and only managed to blow some summoners, then you are behind if the enemy jungler hasn't ganked and you need the EXP from blue to stay close with the enemy jungler.
Like Terranasaur said, what you do with buffs is at your discretion. If every time you give your mid blue he/she proceeds to tower dive and lose it IMMEDIATELY, then IMO mid has lost their rights to blue buff and that is when I stop giving it to them. I have had games like this before, and I see no point in giving blue to someone who's going to lose it to the enemy within 30 seconds of acquiring it.
I once had a game where we invaded their blue and our SHYVANA demanded the enemy blue buff because "It helps my cooldowns and jungler can just get his own." The Shyvana did not realize that I lose a lot of time wandering from one blue to the other and I needed that initial blue buff as Skarner more than he did to spam abilities. I didn't bother explaining it to him though and just proceeded to take the blue buff. |
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| Scip Czech Republic. May 19 2012 21:05. Posts 981 | Profile Blog # |
When you start at blue buff, you obviously take it and give the 2nd blue buff to your mid. But if you start Wraiths-Red, most of the time you give your first blue buff to mid. The reason is, if enemy jungle started their blue, then enemy mid will have their blue at about 7:15, unless you contest it, while your mid will have his blue at about 9:20, putting them at a significant disadvantage.
You don't have to do that, but early blue for your mid is one of THE reasons to pick a jungler than can viably start Wraiths-Red and it would be a bit of a waste to not do that. |
| | If you rage during a game, you care more about your petty feelings than about winning. /// 2.2K S3 Amumu+Rammus+Skarner main |
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| VashTS United States. May 20 2012 01:52. Posts 1537 | Profile # |
On May 19 2012 21:05 Scip wrote:
When you start at blue buff, you obviously take it and give the 2nd blue buff to your mid. But if you start Wraiths-Red, most of the time you give your first blue buff to mid. The reason is, if enemy jungle started their blue, then enemy mid will have their blue at about 7:15, unless you contest it, while your mid will have his blue at about 9:20, putting them at a significant disadvantage.
You don't have to do that, but early blue for your mid is one of THE reasons to pick a jungler than can viably start Wraiths-Red and it would be a bit of a waste to not do that.
I thought the main reason was for a beastly level 2 gank... Hmm, this is interesting. |
| | VashTS; 330; Random -- Ranked #9 Pokemon Video Game Player in the World in 2009 |
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| zulu_nation8 China. May 20 2012 04:02. Posts 18694 | Profile Blog # |
| No AP mid needs blue buff at at lv4. You gank early with Lee so you get behind if you don't get a kill or assist. Giving away the first blue puts you even more behind. Your friend is wrong. |
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| Slayer91 Ireland. May 20 2012 04:34. Posts 8841 | Profile # |
| It's situational. Some AP mids don't use blue that well pre 6 and the XP for your level 4 is important. Last edit: 2012-05-20 04:34:47 |
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| SagaZ France. May 20 2012 04:42. Posts 706 | Profile Blog # |
Blue golem is too much exp/gold for the jungler during his first clear, even if i would play a no mana / no cdr champion i would not give it up. Besides mid players don't need the blue at lvl 4, tell them to suck it up and manage mana better.
About the "enemy mid get blue at 7, your mid gets it at 9" thing, i don't think it's that much of a disavantage, your mid will playy passive and pushed for 2 mins but at this point both guys are hovering level 6-7 and still don't consume that much mana, the 2 extra minutes his buff lasts, your mid will be highter leveled and will have better use for it because of extra mana costs. |
| | Be nice, buy wards and don't feed double buff. |
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| Diderick Netherlands. May 20 2012 04:51. Posts 220 | Profile # |
| I would keep it most of the time, only give it to mids who can effectively spam skills like Cassio and Karthus. Lb doesnt need blue at 4 at all. |
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| Sufinsil United States. May 20 2012 05:51. Posts 417 | Profile # |
LB not a spammy harasser, she does not need it early.
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| Xevious United States. May 20 2012 07:15. Posts 1371 | Profile # |
You should START blue instead of red on most junglers. It's more efficient to clear your whole jungle as fast as possible with the blue path, and also you can give the second blue to mids faster (since it respawns earlier).
You should really only start red for the purpose of level 2 ganking (which leaves your own blue exposed to the enemy jungler) or for counterjungling (which is difficult if you start red and their jungler started blue, which they usually will). Of course if you are in the situation you were in it would've been better that you take it, just do it quickly so that you can get the 2nd one to your mid faster.
Edit: In regards to the jungler "owning" the buffs and deciding when to give them up...this is a team game. You should be giving the buffs to whoever, all things considered, benefits from them the most. If you get behind as a jungler it's very difficult to catch back up compared to a solo lane, so if their jungler gets 2 of the first buffs and you only get one he could end up far enough ahead of you that he can start counterjungling and putting you even more behind. That being said, if you're playing a safe jungler and you're mid has the potential to capitalize on the blue and completely shut down their lane opponent early (i.e. cass vs ryze, soraka vs karthus), it's probably better overall to give the first blue to the mid.Last edit: 2012-05-20 07:25:26 |
| | will the real skarnold trump pls stand up |
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| Terranasaur United States. May 20 2012 08:15. Posts 962 | Profile # |
On May 20 2012 07:15 Xevious wrote:
You should START blue instead of red on most junglers. It's more efficient to clear your whole jungle as fast as possible with the blue path, and also you can give the second blue to mids faster (since it respawns earlier).
You should really only start red for the purpose of level 2 ganking (which leaves your own blue exposed to the enemy jungler) or for counterjungling (which is difficult if you start red and their jungler started blue, which they usually will). Of course if you are in the situation you were in it would've been better that you take it, just do it quickly so that you can get the 2nd one to your mid faster.
Edit: In regards to the jungler "owning" the buffs and deciding when to give them up...this is a team game. You should be giving the buffs to whoever, all things considered, benefits from them the most. If you get behind as a jungler it's very difficult to catch back up compared to a solo lane, so if their jungler gets 2 of the first buffs and you only get one he could end up far enough ahead of you that he can start counterjungling and putting you even more behind. That being said, if you're playing a safe jungler and you're mid has the potential to capitalize on the blue and completely shut down their lane opponent early (i.e. cass vs ryze, soraka vs karthus), it's probably better overall to give the first blue to the mid.
No mid needs a blue buff more than the jungler before 7 minutes. Experience and Gold are limited more in the jungle than any of the lanes, and the jungler has no way to make it up. Many junglers can keep the 3 little camps clear with 15 seconds of spawn and the loss of Buff gold/exp just sets you so far behind. Especially since the kind of Mids that are going to demand a level 1 blue buff are the same ones that are going to bitch about you taxing their lane. |
| | Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 |
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| Zato-1 Chile. May 20 2012 08:46. Posts 2584 | Profile Blog # |
| On a manaless champion like Lee Sin, and when doing a late blue? I'd definitely give it to a mana-using mid. Not only is the mana regen mostly wasted on you (extra energy regen is nice, but nowhere near as useful as ~2000g worth of mana regen for a caster), the fact that you're doing a late blue means that if you get the buff, then your mid won't have a blue buff until like minute 9 (I'm guessing you killed it at minute 4); conversely, because it's a late blue, the loss of exp / gold will be nowhere near as critical as when you're just starting the jungle. Last edit: 2012-05-20 08:50:00 |
| | Ranking of SC2 Matchups by how fun they are to watch: ZvP 10/10 | PvT 8/10 | PvP 7/10 | TvZ 5/10 | TvT 4/10 | ZvZ 1/10 |
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| Xevious United States. May 20 2012 09:52. Posts 1371 | Profile # |
On May 20 2012 08:15 Terranasaur wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 07:15 Xevious wrote:
You should START blue instead of red on most junglers. It's more efficient to clear your whole jungle as fast as possible with the blue path, and also you can give the second blue to mids faster (since it respawns earlier).
You should really only start red for the purpose of level 2 ganking (which leaves your own blue exposed to the enemy jungler) or for counterjungling (which is difficult if you start red and their jungler started blue, which they usually will). Of course if you are in the situation you were in it would've been better that you take it, just do it quickly so that you can get the 2nd one to your mid faster.
Edit: In regards to the jungler "owning" the buffs and deciding when to give them up...this is a team game. You should be giving the buffs to whoever, all things considered, benefits from them the most. If you get behind as a jungler it's very difficult to catch back up compared to a solo lane, so if their jungler gets 2 of the first buffs and you only get one he could end up far enough ahead of you that he can start counterjungling and putting you even more behind. That being said, if you're playing a safe jungler and you're mid has the potential to capitalize on the blue and completely shut down their lane opponent early (i.e. cass vs ryze, soraka vs karthus), it's probably better overall to give the first blue to the mid.
No mid needs a blue buff more than the jungler before 7 minutes. Experience and Gold are limited more in the jungle than any of the lanes, and the jungler has no way to make it up. Many junglers can keep the 3 little camps clear with 15 seconds of spawn and the loss of Buff gold/exp just sets you so far behind. Especially since the kind of Mids that are going to demand a level 1 blue buff are the same ones that are going to bitch about you taxing their lane.
On May 20 2012 08:46 Zato-1 wrote:
On a manaless champion like Lee Sin, and when doing a late blue? I'd definitely give it to a mana-using mid. Not only is the mana regen mostly wasted on you (extra energy regen is nice, but nowhere near as useful as ~2000g worth of mana regen for a caster), the fact that you're doing a late blue means that if you get the buff, then your mid won't have a blue buff until like minute 9 (I'm guessing you killed it at minute 4); conversely, because it's a late blue, the loss of exp / gold will be nowhere near as critical as when you're just starting the jungle.
Tbh I was thinking more about champs like shyv/mundo who are manaless but safe in the jungle and can farm easily. Lee isn't the best farmer and Also it's under the assumption that you start red then go to blue, i agree that starting at blue and giving that blue to your mid is retarded.
TLDR answer to OP question is just start blue on every jungler and take it, problem solved. |
| | will the real skarnold trump pls stand up |
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