| drakhl May 20 2012 00:52. Posts 17 | Profile # |
Been seeing this a lot in the GSL, today from squirtle, Naniwa did it earlier in the GSL as well as Parting. I'm curious to the advantages to this opener beyond the fact that you can switch it up on the terran after he scouts by putting an additional two probes in gas and going for some sort of all-in.
But basically the build as I see it is that you skip the zealot for a faster 2nd gas, put 2 probes in each gas and continue the 1 gate expand normally.
I am somewhat lost as to the advantages this build gives you, however. Is it to jumpstart a mass stalker opening, or a blink build? Faster tech? More sentries?
It seems like a fast engineering bay block would become standard against this opening as you skip the zealot, and that could be a serious problem for the FE.
Anyone have any insight into why this opening is done? I'm interested in trying it myself.Last edit: 2012-05-20 00:52:44 |
|
|
| WhosTheSmuRf United States. May 20 2012 00:58. Posts 56 | Profile # |
| If you go for one gas and no zealot, the engi block is more likely to happen than when the protoss goes for 2gas. Also if you deny the scv scout, there is the allin threat. The extra gas is also usefull, but I don't think that's the major purpose. |
|
|
| zmansman17 United States. May 20 2012 05:51. Posts 2181 | Profile # |
| You get 80% of gas income with 2 versus 3 probes. It makes a lot of sense |
| | ♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞ |
|
|
| Canadaehz Canada. May 20 2012 08:32. Posts 58 | Profile # |
It is really strong for fast colossus openers and you expand faster than the standard MC 1 Gate FE.
User was warned for this post |
|
|
| HoMM Estonia. May 20 2012 08:50. Posts 561 | Profile # |
| There's tons of variations on this kind of 2 gas 4 probe style, I wont list them all but you should just be thinking of this as a standard 2nd gas but designed for a really optimised buildorder to achieve the maximal saturation from your base. |
| | HoMM.998 | Masters protoss, I'm looking for a clan/team/practise partners, msg me (: |
|
|
| tuestresfat May 20 2012 09:13. Posts 2478 | Profile # |
| i believe it's just to open with optimal gas mining, don't think it's specifically done to get blink/dt/robo or any sort of later tech. it's just a refinement to the more commmon 1gas openings |
|
|
| synd Bulgaria. May 20 2012 09:31. Posts 286 | Profile # |
Not at all a good idea of a build. Sure it throws your opponent into thinking that you might or may not go for a 2gas allin but overall all he has to do is place an eng bay to delay your expo or make sure that he takes or doesn't take an expo. When he has this info he can just prepare for whatever allin your cooking for him.
Last edit: 2012-05-20 09:32:01 |
|
|
| Zedrewo Sweden. May 20 2012 09:53. Posts 12 | Profile # |
| It looks like a great opening as you delay your gases a bit, then catchup on gas as you have 4 probes mining. This way you will be able to afford a zealot if you see an scv in your base. |
|
|
| Severedevil United States. May 20 2012 10:10. Posts 4498 | Profile Blog # |
Double gas accelerates your tech and makes you harder to read. (Terran scouts two geysers? You might be proxying Void Rays. One? He knows you're gateway-only for a while.)
However, double gas decreases/delays your minerals, so if you weren't planning to use that gas any time soon, it's kind of clunky. |
| | My strategy is to fork people. |
|
|
| ChoboDane Denmark. May 20 2012 10:25. Posts 98 | Profile # |
| somehow, in my mind, I read that as 4 probe harass with double gas steal :DD |
|
|
| drakhl May 20 2012 10:36. Posts 17 | Profile # |
| One thing I have noticed about the build is that I can get out 2 sentries before WG finishes rather than just one.. Maybe a side effect is holding off a marine SCV all-in a little easier? |
|
|
| monk United States. May 20 2012 10:38. Posts 6806 | Profile Blog # |
On May 20 2012 09:31 synd wrote:
Not at all a good idea of a build. Sure it throws your opponent into thinking that you might or may not go for a 2gas allin but overall all he has to do is place an eng bay to delay your expo or make sure that he takes or doesn't take an expo. When he has this info he can just prepare for whatever allin your cooking for him.
This is wrong. Squirtle does queue up a zealot before canceling and making a stalker to discourages engineering bay blocks. You can even make the zealot if you're fearful of eng bay blocks. Making or not making a zealot has nothing to do with the build.Last edit: 2012-05-20 10:49:32 |
| |
|
| drakhl May 20 2012 10:45. Posts 17 | Profile # |
On May 20 2012 10:38 NrGmonk wrote:
This is wrong. Squirtle does queue up a zealot before canceling and making a stalker to discourages engineering bay blocks. You can even make the zealot if you're fearful of eng bay blocks. Making or not making a zealot has nothing to do with the build.
Ah I see I must have missed that queue up. When I've tried the build making the zealot makes the build a little tight but definitely still fits in there.
Glad you replied monk. You have any insight as to why he opens 2 gas? |
|
|
| monk United States. May 20 2012 10:49. Posts 6806 | Profile Blog # |
To answer the OP, the double gas has almost nothing to do with the followup of the protoss. It's simple an optimization of the current standard Protoss opening and it has been used in PvP for a while. Basically 2 things happen if you opt for the delayed 2 gas over the standard single gas:
- You mine with 16 probes or below for a longer time. Thus, with more mining efficiency, you get more minerals for the same amount of probe mining.
- You mine with 4 probes split 2/2. 2 probes mining gas in a geyser is more efficient than 3 probes mining a geyser. For example, a 2/2 split of probes is better than a 3/1 split. Thus, with increased gas mining efficiency, you get more gas for the same amount of probe mining.
Basically, the idea behind it is you just get more resources in the end. I'm not personally sure exactly how much, but I estimate it's between 50 and 100 minerals worth based on the fact that you can get an extra zealot out in PvP if you don't scout and do this build. Someone should test this and make a graph! Contribute please =).Last edit: 2012-05-20 10:51:07 |
| |
|
| xTrim May 20 2012 11:16. Posts 471 | Profile # |
It`s good that this thread has come up...
I really wanted to ask you guys how behind (if at all) an engi block puts the protoss?
Does it "trigger" an all-in? Or just delays the nexus by a good amount of time? |
|
|
| drakhl May 20 2012 11:24. Posts 17 | Profile # |
On May 20 2012 11:16 xTrim wrote:
It`s good that this thread has come up...
I really wanted to ask you guys how behind (if at all) an engi block puts the protoss?
Does it "trigger" an all-in? Or just delays the nexus by a good amount of time?
If you don't have the zealot out it can be a problem, but I don't think it puts you so far behind as to trigger an all-in. If I felt it put me a little behind I might drop a few gates and chrono warpgate to do a little pressure and take the nexus ASAP. Maybe force the terran to cut workers or bring scvs to his bunkers and lose mining time.. Should be enough to bring you even I think.
Though, as Monk pointed out, you don't have to cut the zealot with the build, its just a choice squirtle makes.
Last edit: 2012-05-20 11:25:14 |
|
|
| las91 United States. May 20 2012 11:25. Posts 552 | Profile Blog # |
On May 20 2012 11:16 xTrim wrote:
It`s good that this thread has come up...
I really wanted to ask you guys how behind (if at all) an engi block puts the protoss?
Does it "trigger" an all-in? Or just delays the nexus by a good amount of time?
Most of the time I see the build include a zealot as it lines up money wise fairly well (I need to really practice it myself, but for some reason whenever I go into ladder vT I auto make a 14 gas after a 12gate T.T) so I don't think an engi block is really that big of a deal.
As for an all-in yeah you can definitely transition into one easily as you have both gases up before the core is done so if you think the terran is being super greedy (ie 3 cc or some weird CC + tech build with few marines) you can do so. I personally have only done that once versus a terran who engi blocked me, just void ray allined him and won the game (lost the replay due to a corrupted hard drive). |
| | cLucas, Player Manager | Clarity Gaming |
|
|
 roymarthyup May 20 2012 16:08. Posts 1442 | Profile # |
i think technically, if you WERE going to get 2 gasses relatively fast anyway (say after core) then going 2gas 4probes means you end up getting MORE minerals due to using less probes on gas or something like that
each probe up to 16 on minerals provides 100% mineral income
each probe up to 2 on gas provides 100% gas income
the third probe on gas provides 50% gas income (for example, 2 probes on gas gives 80% of a gasses income, or 40% per probe. then the last probe gives 20% of the gasses income which is half of that 40%)
after 16 probes on minerals, each probe you add gives less than 100% of a normal probes income mineral
so if you go for 2 gasses slightly faster than your normal plan (maybe not 2 instantly, but 1 and then 2 miners on it then the second faster and 2 miners on that) then you will be using that third gas probe to mine 100% minerals instead of 50% gas
errr its hard to explain. hope someone does the math on it soon
|
|
|
| TheExodus May 20 2012 17:59. Posts 293 | Profile # |
| Doesn't 4 probes also mean you can continously warp in stalkers from 2 gates, whereas 3 probes in one gas means you can warp in stalkers from 1 gate continously and get some gas over? This seems like resource optimization more than any trickery really. |
|
|
| monk United States. May 23 2012 05:49. Posts 6806 | Profile Blog # |
I did a crude test and this is what I found. The test included me doing the same build with both the 1 gas and 2 gas openings on the same map, entombed valley. Entombed valley has efficient mineral patches and inefficient gas geysers for reference, so the gas difference should be ever so slightly higher on other maps. I'm not sure which build the mineral efficiency favors. I went for a 12 scout on both versions. The build I did was a stalker/sentry/sentry 1 gate expand with nexus after the first stalker; this is the most common build vs gasless expand in PvT atm. It is also the build that the Startale Tosses always do with this build. In the 1 gas opening, I got my 2nd gas at around 4:25. These are my results at 5:00 in both versions:
1 gas opening: 29 supply 24 probes, 1 stalker, 1 sentry, 2 gas, 45 minerals/88 gas
2 gas opening: 29 supply, 24 probes, 1 stalker, 1st sentry 90% done, 2 gas, 25 minerals/104 gas
It's not much of a difference. The 2 gas opening delays your core for about 5-10 seconds, which doesn't matter much in PvT. However, it's huge in PvP, which is why you usually don't 12 scout with this build. However, with the delayed core and higher gas income, you can have constant gateway production if you chrono the first stalker where as you can't with the 1 gas version. You seem to be trading around 20 minerals for about 20 gas with the 2 gas opening as well. Overall, the build seems to line up with and optimized for the 1 gate expand build I previously mentioned.Last edit: 2012-05-23 05:58:37 |
| |
|
| 1 2 Next All |
|
Store
