it seems like out of the terrans I play on ICCUP they all go for some sort of mech play. Either it's fast vultures, 2 port wraith or just standard mech. Mech seems to cover its bases very well vs zerg if they go for some sort of harassment so that the zerg can't expand a ton. I have recently been experimenting with lurkers just so that, even tho I sometimes wont get the scout off to see anything more than an extra gas and a wall, I have some hydras out if he goes wraith.
I've read all the so called guides to fighting mech, but they are typically outdated as far as I can see, some knowledge is still usable tho. But, how do you:
React when you see mech-signs?
Strong/weak unit compositions? All the guides seem to say hydras but not how to use them. There is no limit to how many hydras 5 tanks can take if you don't know how to use them.
Queens? How do you manage that APM intensity?
Tips/tricks and timings are of course also of interest.
On May 20 2012 01:26 Jaevlaterran wrote: it seems like out of the terrans I play on ICCUP they all go for some sort of mech play. Either it's fast vultures, 2 port wraith or just standard mech. Mech seems to cover its bases very well vs zerg if they go for some sort of harassment so that the zerg can't expand a ton. I have recently been experimenting with lurkers just so that, even tho I sometimes wont get the scout off to see anything more than an extra gas and a wall, I have some hydras out if he goes wraith.
I've read all the so called guides to fighting mech, but they are typically outdated as far as I can see, some knowledge is still usable tho. But, how do you:
React when you see mech-signs?
Strong/weak unit compositions? All the guides seem to say hydras but not how to use them. There is no limit to how many hydras 5 tanks can take if you don't know how to use them.
Queens? How do you manage that APM intensity?
Tips/tricks and timings are of course also of interest.
I`m a c- zerg with around 130-150 APM so you probably should not listen to me :D But,anyway... It`s very important to scout and see what kind of a build he is going for: If it`s a 2 port wraith,defend with hydras (I don`t think you shoul upgrade them) and 1 spore at each base. Get lair ASAP!!! and then get mutas and lurker upgrade (so you can defend against M&M push). Against other mech builds: Well you also get hydras (upgrade them this time,first speed then range),get lair and I like to get overloord speed asap. At this time you should be gettin you fourth,which is really not that hard to secure against mech,and you should keep expanding like mad whole game. Standard unit composition in this matchup is hydras + mutas (carapace +1 is essential) but I REALLY like to also get some zergling,mainly for mine dragging... You should stay on lair tech for a long time,and then you have couple of choices:
1.Queens. I prefer this choice because against lower ranked players you can almost always send 2-3 queens to snipe tanks before battles... 2.Overloord drops. To me it seems much harder to exgecute than queens. 3.Defilers. Well you should get them anyways but if you want to go just for ground troops + defiler then your defiler usage must be very good.
P.S. I guess you already heard that ultras are bad vs mech,which is absolutely true,but if it`s like 7 bases vs 3 then just go ahead and get them. P.P.S. I also had a lot of success with just a standard 3 hatch mutas,because terrans rarely expect them to get as quickly as when they use M&M and really Goliaths are not that good against Mutas,especially in small numbers. You should stick to mutas until terran starts to pump scince vessels anyway. I hope I helped at least a little bit.
To me it goes like this , if you're behind in economy for whatever reason and Terran is going mech , you going to lose ( unless that person is higher rank then you ) etcetc.. To me ultra is still a good unit against mech even if 4 bases vs 3 , it prevent terran from getting 4th and if prevent is successful , you will roll with ultra for sure.
<3 Katelyn , C Zerg. Dying wish is to watch proleague live and see my girlfriend which gonna be soon! <33
Is there anything wrong with Day9's advice in his old podcast?
I don't think there is a mech trend on iCCup, at least not in my experience this season. Players sometimes try weird stuff when they think they're ahead, but if you're keeping them on their toes and your timings are tight, you will probably see it a lot less.... That's not super helpful, but I will give you the generic advice next.
If it isn't a switch into mech, you are basically checking their marine count and when they get their second gas to determine if they've gone mech. You can do normal muta harass, but just like day9 explains, what you really need is just a lot of stuff. Mech is slow to put real pressure on you, so get your expos and your upgrades and don't bother teching to hive too too fast. Your ideal army should have muta ling and hydra, and how much of each will depend on how many goliaths your opponent gets vs vultures.. Ideally you want a good mix tho because that is the hardest to deal with, and to make sure your flanks are good. This is how you fight mech at the most basic level. If you want to fight a good mech player into the late game when they can secure 4-5 gas, you will have to study a lot. For now focus on trying to make sure they don't get those 4-5 gas. Otherwise you really do need to have very nice multitask with swarms and ultralisk drops. I'm not sure what the timing is, but I think Zerg players get those 12-15 queens when they know Terran is about to be super passive for the next 4 minutes, aka when they're taking their new gases.
tbh for a lot of these really high level strategies and stuff that give people trouble, it is really more about who has studied the legit strategy the most and who is just winging it. If a Terran is just winging it, you will crush with muta ling hydra most of the time before anything can happen. If T knows what he is doing, you will need to know what you are doing too and that's outside the scope of any simple response I can do here. Grab Zimp's Zerg replay packs, get lrmb to search through them for mech builds with filters, and watch them all to get a really good idea of what is actually happening in these games. I can give you low level advice like don't attack into seiged tanks and make sure you are threatening flanks and counter attacks when the terran is moving out so it takes him longer and you can build more stuff, but that is not really matchup specific that is just how you have to play Zerg because head on confrontations are typically not a part of good zerg play.
I find vs mech pretty easy vs players my level. There is also Satanik's method and you can study his replays a bit. Instead of out-massing them he gets extremely quick upgrades and good tech, and that's probably the easier method but its not what the pros do and it does require a certain amount of game sense (but because it is rare many players don't really know how to deal with it).
As far as the goofier stuff like fast vultures and wraith / vulture drop... You just need to build a good wall with a sunk to make vulture runby difficult, and know that if you've seen a vulture you have to get a hydra den and 4-5 hydra to defend the possibility of a starport even if he doesn't get it (unless you get a really good scout and see that he's not getting starport somehow).
So I dunno... those are some starting points for how to think about it. Main thing to think about in all Zerg matchup's is not 'how do I crush this massive army that's at my natural' but to go to points before that and ask 'how could I have given myself more time / delayed the terran / took advantage of map control better / planned expos more effectively / made annoying counterattacks and intelligent army movements' because the nature of Zerg is not that their units are really great and can stand toe to toe with a Terran or Protoss army in good position, but that they can get really big if Terran or Toss isn't careful.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
asiantraceur United States. May 20 2012 07:11. Posts 93
Day[9]'s podcast was really good Day(9) Podcasts It's the podcast titled stopping mech...
Basically just expand everywhere so this way you can spam units when you want to attack.. I also remember seeing an interesting and very fun progame where the zerg player massed queens and basically broodling'd the tanks and then attacked...can't remember the game but if you want to watch it I remember sayleby on youtube did cast it so you can look through there... But more safer way is just to listen to Day[9], expo like crazy then spam lings + other units... So thats for standard mech
For fast vulture youre going to need sunkens and hydras
For wraith youre going to need hydras and maybe a spore or two
SC:BW
icystorage Philippines. May 20 2012 09:55. Posts 3978
from a terran's point of view, it's hard to mech early game when it gets scouted and zerg goes hydras and the lack of gas is hard to keep up tanks and gols. i seldom go mech because it requires a lot of gas =/
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Mech trend or not? I started laddering earlier this week and I have yet faced one bio build. Maybe not in all ranks ofc, but definitely in the lower ranks I'd say mech is very common from what I've seen this far.
yeah well day9 was one of the guides I've seen allthough it was a while ago. I just don't seem to get it working the way he describes it. It seems like a fine line of late/midlate timings to be able to use hydras/ling vs tanks, I'd love to see some more structure on that.
So far I think hydra-ling queen seems to be the best option. It is really easy to go to if putting down a hydra den when going for a lurker build as well. But being able to actually kill something with hydras is just so hard IMO unless it's wraith with bad micro. One queen really screws wraith over with ensnare and/or parasite. Has anyone seen any proper builds for countering mech, I mean with real timings and supply counts for stuff? Since most of the time it seems like this MU is full of timings, and often zergs have the possibility to scout it and react accordingly, unless it's a late game mech switch.
Late game mech switches seem easier to handle IMO since you already have your stuff going for you, and can easilty start spamming out a bunch of queens when you see the first barracks comming out if that's what you desire.
Actually late game mech switch is a lot harder for zerg to win against. Bio>mech takes out all the weaknesses of going full mech from the start. And if the terran is good, there will be almost no window to attack while the terran transitions. Bio>mech will make you fight against a powerful mech army without the huge econ you'd normally have if terran went mech from the start
On May 20 2012 11:47 Puyi wrote: Actually late game mech switch is a lot harder for zerg to win against. Bio>mech takes out all the weaknesses of going full mech from the start. And if the terran is good, there will be almost no window to attack while the terran transitions. Bio>mech will make you fight against a powerful mech army without the huge econ you'd normally have if terran went mech from the start
agreed, if you've been fighting even or even slightly ahead battles in standard bio play, then all of a sudden you got mines on the field to deal with, plus MM and heavy tanks... it's almost impossible. T_T You watch the pro Zergs fight that and just feel how hard it is.
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sCCrooked Korea (South). May 21 2012 01:56. Posts 1068
On May 20 2012 11:47 Puyi wrote: Actually late game mech switch is a lot harder for zerg to win against. Bio>mech takes out all the weaknesses of going full mech from the start. And if the terran is good, there will be almost no window to attack while the terran transitions. Bio>mech will make you fight against a powerful mech army without the huge econ you'd normally have if terran went mech from the start
^ This.
The Transition (your one and only hope): Its amazing to see how easily Terrans figured out how to completely demolish the defiler/lurker/ling combination with such a cheap-cost and easily-spammed unit. On the other hand, we Zerg are stuck pulling plays and styles from a selection that hasn't budged since 2007-2008. Lategame Bio>>Mech might be a little harder to pull off. There is one point at which you'll need to be microing/managing your bio/tank push against the zerg with defiler/lurker/ling while simultaneously finishing up securing your third and properly distributing mines behind your slowly-retreating army. The thing is though once you've done that, you can literally use that same bio/tank ball combined with more vultures with mines to grab map control once again and take a 4th or even 5th on some maps that permit the setup, so it becomes a lot easier. Its just being able to control all that at once for about 1-2 minutes. This is incredibly difficult mechanically, but after a certain skill level, just about every Terran can pull it off. *(See fish server)
The Problem: That being said, there actually is no way Zerg can deal with this change effectively. A lot of pros have said so and you can see it in their performances. Zerg can't at any point anymore be on the offense unless its some sort of very strong all-in. Muta stage we've been reduced to defending and just trying not to lose third (hell even getting up a third is a huge pain) instead of being able to do any serious damage (remember when we used to be able to win a lot at the muta stage). As stated earlier, just a few vultures with the mines (very easy to do at any rank) completely utterly negates the ability of defiler/lurker/ling to even move forward to be on offense. Mines also hardcounter ultras and guardians are terrible against even a handful of upgraded goliaths.
The Beginning (vs norm mech): If you're referring to the mech from the start, the idea is to open with 3 hatch and a hydra den before lair generally. You then transition into a 3 hatch muta taking a faster 3rd (you have map control briefly with hydras). Just don't overmake hydras or you'll be committing essentially to an all-in. YOU NEED DRONES! Using hydras/mutas and a sunk + sim city (can't stress this enough or you will die to vultures), you should be able to secure (defenses done) the third and have it saturated right around the time you would normally be transitioning from muta to lurkers.
On Lurkers vs mech: Lurkers are terrible against any competent mech'er unless you went for the 2 hatch drop tech all-in timing (without drop, you'll only pull it off against bad players). The reason for this is the exact reason a lot of people liked them at first. Lurkers burrow to be invisible. However, this means they also can just have really fast units run right over them. Bio can't do this because of their low unit-HP. They just get splattered. However vultures with the speed upgrade (hell, even WITHOUT the speed upgrade) are able to run right over even a pretty large lurker field WITH proper spreading and at least half will survive. If the Terran is really good (I've had this happen on fish a lot), they will simply flank your lurker field with 2 or even 3 groups of vultures from all sides and just lay mines down. Your lurkers can't kill all the mines and you'll trigger them even though you're burrowed. Long story short, you die completely without any damage done to a unit composition that was less than 2 control groups of medic-marine. The lesson here? Just skip lurkers unless you have plans to drop them onto mineral lines at either a very early all-in or in very lategame when T is spread a bit thin and you MIGHT get a drop off without them having mined up the base.
Beginning the battle for map control: The next difficult phase against a T going mech off the start is getting your 4th up and saturated before his push comes. This will require you to micro against his push while securing your 4th against certain vulture harassment. If he has proper army composition at this point you will be facing enough upgraded goliaths to counter your mutas, enough vulture/mines to counter your hydras, and enough tanks to further-neutralize your hydras. You must catch his vultures and tanks with mutas poking around the edges of his push while simultaneously microing your hydra groups to prevent him from spreading his mines too far ahead and thus gaining ground towards your very vulnerable bases. Meanwhile as this is all happening, you need to create perfect sim city and drone on at least 1 hatchery to saturate your 4th to keep units pumping while the T is pushing out towards you. As it sounds, this is quite difficult. If all goes well, you will stop his push and kill his army. To mech, this is a deathpoint unless they planned to just push out enough against you to cause a ton of units to be flooded and they positioned themselves to take a third.
At this point, its your job to prevent his third at all costs. You have to do the same micro as above but in a preventative manner now that he'll be trying to secure that third. If he positioned properly, he'll be able to do so with no possible harassment except from your mutas which will quickly fade vs vessels with irradiate, goliaths with upgrades and turrets (constructed last). These back-and-forth battles will continue until one screws up multi-tasking.
Currently vs lategame mech: If you were referring to bio lategame transition into mech which is the latest trend from TvZ evolution, I can't really help you. Nobody can. Quite simply, Zerg haven't found any way to take a serious offensive stance against competent Terran anymore. The lategame mech is simply too strong. It has tilted the scales of TvZ much more in T's favor. Its even more effective at lower levels because its just THAT much harder for a lower level Z to deal with while being less mechanically demanding of the T (after that one transition I described). The general tools pros are using are overlord drops over the entrenched Terran positions to create a sort of poor-man's flank since we can't flank due to sieged tanks/mines and select crackling drops to try to catch a T who hasn't put up proper defenses. As you might have noticed already though, a T only has to unsiege the edges of his territory, pull back and mine up + attack with his army to drive you back. Meanwhile your losses almost certainly far exceed his in each encounter. With each encounter he will gain massive strength and you will gradually lose any ability to expand or drone up. The only harassment we can try relies on the Terran making a big mistake (which any 1300+ fish won't make).
I wish I could say something more optimistic and helpful, but quite literally nobody all the way up to the S-rank pro Zergs has found a way to properly counter or take control of the flow of the TvZ's latest trends. Zergs need another "3 hatch muta" type of revolutionary find or we'll find Terrans getting better and better at this transition while Zergs stagnate on 4-5 year old strategies that have been dissected and analyzed to the letter. Your only hope is to kill the Terran with superior mechanics and aggression before he reaches the mech point. Even the pros on fish will tell you how difficult a lategame mech entrenched Terran is to make any movements against. Granted, I did say there's that transition period where its REALLY mechanically difficult for T for about 1-2 minutes while they set all that stuff up, but afterwards they can pretty much just sit still and steam-roll you with vulture harassment and slow expansion. If any higher level Zerg has a counter for this at the high level (don't just say "hope the T fucks up"), please PLEASE share.
Last edit: 2012-05-21 01:59:38
Follow the yellow brick road and you'll find whoever is f*cking with you.
WOW! You are DA MAN! This some really good stuff. Much better structure and easier to understand than what I've read before. This should be in the recommended threads list. It gives a good brief insight to any player wondering about mech, not an entire book like liquipedia.
Mech games usually last two stages: The build-up, which goes from the beginning to between the Zerg having taken his third and going for his fourth, and the big Terran push which is when most games are decided. Usually, longer (and even) games are only found in high caliber players of equal skill.
First we will describe a build focused on finishing the game early with a combination of Muta-Hydra. [edit] Build Order One
9 Overlord 12 Hatch (see note) 11 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor @100 Gas - Lair @100% Pool - Zerglings (see note) 15 Overlord 17 Sunken Colony (see note) @250 Gas Hydralisk Den (see note) @100% Lair - Spire and second Extractor (see note) @100% Hydralisk Den - Hydra Range (see note) When affordable - two Hydralisks 21 Three Hydralisks (see note) 24 Two Overlords Save Larvae (see note) @100% Spire - 6-8 Mutas Move out with the Hydras after starting Mutas Hydra Speed can be gotten soon after. Keep making Mutas until Speed is finished.
[edit] Build Order Clarification [edit] 12 Hatch
An alternative to the Overlord and the 12 Hatch can be:
9 Pool 9 Overlord 12 Hatch 11-13 Extractor
This is impregnable vs. 8 Barracks builds. See the scouting section for more info. Then you will continue the build normally. 9 Pools can also work to kill the scout early, but that is not paramount. As this build tries to resemble a 2 Hatch Muta, for the Terran at least. The gas timing can be manipulated to allow for a certain number of Zerglings. [edit] Zerglings
The build will assume that you made only a single pair. As it has been mentioned, killing the scouting scv very early is not paramount as this build resembles standard 2-Hatch Muta play vs Mech. Ling Speed is not needed for this build. [edit] Sunken Colony
This will be shortly after the Natural Hatchery is done, the timing is not set in stone, but it allows for the Creep to expand a little while, to allow for a good placement while being fast enough to fight a Vulture. [edit] Hydralisk Den
Your supply count should be around 20 right before you place this. This is not an arbitrary timing, it works well to get Hydras just in time to block the ramp against more than a single Vulture, and it works vs 1-base strategies as well. Also, since this is a 2-Hatch build, it is recommended to place the Den so that it makes it hard for Vultures to go towards your main. [edit] Spire
Just as a side note, by the time you're placing this, even with only 2 Zerglings, the scouting SCV should be dead. [edit] Hydra Range
Preferred over Speed as we will have only one upgrade by the time we attack. [edit] Hydras
For 24/27 with 5 Hydras total, By this time you should have around 8 Drones mining minerals in your Main and 4 mining minerals in your Nat, including the 6 Drones in gas, 5 Hydras, 2 Zerglings, it makes for 24 supply total. This is not a comfortable build if you're not used to sacrificing economy (or supply) for timing. [edit] Larvae
Larvae may stay on 3 idle for a little while, that's normal. [edit] Continuation
As soon as you send those Hydras, Rally your bases towards his nat and attack unrelenting. This is basically an all-in build which depends on you killing his natural at all costs. [edit]
Need a light?
EngrishTeacher China. May 21 2012 11:00. Posts 435
Ultras are good in small numbers to soak up a few rounds of tank shells in order for cracklings/hydras to close in.
Use overlord drops if goliath numbers are low, queens otherwise.
Queens take some time to build up at least 125, so I would actually say they're harder to use than overlord drops because if the Terran kills your expos before their energies charge up, you're as good as dead.
On the other hand, overlord drops are easy to execute once you get the hang of it. I usually do it like this:
1. Spam click overlords with units to load up.
2. Spread overlords in more or less a line perpendicular to the tank line. It's important to make sure there is minimal stacking.
3. Find some empty overlords and put them in the front.
4. Move overlords to a location at least a screen or two BEHIND the tank lines, or your spread overlords will just group together on top of the tanks.
5. Press "U" and click on a moving overlord, and repeat for all loaded overlords.
6. Dead tanks = profit.
amazingxkcd United States. May 21 2012 11:23. Posts 2705
You don't need that many valks and you can reduce your goliath numbers by going valk, so it ends up being a wash in terms of tank count.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
I played a few games today in D level and all the terrans went mech today more or less. I must say that queens were invaluable in the one game I used them. Hydras never seem to do anything as soon as there are a lot of tanks out or just a few on top of a walled ramp. Mass queens are great vs mass tanks. Since it is worth it in most cases to sack a queen for a tank it truly rules. Plus once the tanks are in low numbers a good strong hydra force will eat through those goliaths and vultures like a knife through butter. I simply started killing off his tanks and always shift clicking them to make the attacks more simultaneous. I do it like this, since I'm slow:
1. I scout around for a tank line. 2. I take one queen and shift click somewhere a bit away and then shift clicking a Broodling on a tank and then a shift click to my hiding spot. 3. I then take the next queen and shift click it to somewhere not quite as far away as the first one, and then Broodling on another tank and shift click to the hiding place. 4. Repeat with the rest of the queens with according space depending on the number. 5. Go in with hydra / hydraling + defilers (much less splash now) and surround. Bring overlords for mines since the hydras clump when firing.
Other things: parasite all critters when you've reached a sufficient amount of queens, it's so cheap it's worth it. Using parasite with the first few queens on tanks is a great way of minimizing the damage when waiting for broodling energy. Players react differently but some players simply kill the tank, others bring it home to defend or leave it there. If he does kill it: cheap broodling If he sends it home: it has been removed from his tank push, and will take up supply while potentially showing you parts of his base/enterance. Leaves is be: you know exactly when and where to attack, and when and where he wants to as well.
Parasite is also useful since you have potentially good vision of the army, to use the broodling trick I do. Getting burrow seems to be a trick too so that you get a lot of clear broodling shots on tanks when they pass by those burrowed lings.
I really think going hydra queen is our most reliable way of fighting this, especially if it comes down to handling a late game situation.
Here is the best queen usage I've seen so far:
Note how he really goes extremely heavy on queens. I must say that with the proper APM this seems really viable. Every queen that lands a shot on a tank has been worth its money.
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Harem United States. May 21 2012 11:38. Posts 9351
