| MisterKatosS France. May 23 2012 02:05. Posts 256 | Profile Blog # |
German minister of economy recently declared being for the election of an european president and political / budget union in eurozone (source : http://www.euractiv.com/future-eu/germanys-sch-uble-calls-directly-elected-eu-president-news-512823 ).
To me this is huge, i know that does not mean that it will happen tomorow, but this is a great step and this is my little personnal spark of hope in this economical crysis.
As a group confronted to a crisis we have 2 ways to react :
either abandon the weak and try to survive on our own or stick clother together and stand as a pack.
This is quite a simplistic analogy but i believe it has a deeper meaning (details in the spoiler):
+ Show Spoiler +
I am no economist but it seem pretty logical that such an union would mean the dilution of the richier country wealth, like Germany or France (my country), so there is a part of sacrifice on such a step.
But only short term, as the strong one who survived the crysis alone is more likely to die alone afterward, euro countries are more likely to continue theire downword economical spiral alone.
And if you want details lets look a today's biggest economical problem : wealth repartition.
The world is globally getting richier AND the % of poor people is getting bigger.
Why can't gouvernment adress that ? They are making the laws !
While lobying is certainly a part of the answer, I think the main reason is that wealth may simply escape the laws by moving in another country.
Gouvernments lost their power against money (in eurozone we can't even print money !) and thus can't protect their people against the pervetions of the imperfect system that is capitalism (I am not saying that capitalism is bad but clearly it is not perfect !).
Well how do you adress that ?
You may isolate yourself: close your borders and live with what you got in your country (I guess we french can eat camembert on baguette with wine and say bye bye to computers ...),
or you can make global laws and we all know how easy it is to make dozens of countries agree on global laws !
I don't see any other ways to achieve that than suppressing borders !
I really hope this become a reality !
To me it's so much more important than the petty squabbling between socialists and conservators.
Please Francois hollande be bold and help make this a reality !
So what do you think TL ?
Poll: Are you favorable to an eurozone global democracy ?Yes (and I am in the eurozone) (210) 38% No (and I am in the eurozone) (188) 34% No (and I am not in the eurozone) (64) 12% Yes (and I am not in the eurozone) (58) 11% Don't know (30) 5% 550 total votes Your vote: Are you favorable to an eurozone global democracy ? (Vote): Yes (and I am in the eurozone)
(Vote): No (and I am in the eurozone)
(Vote): Yes (and I am not in the eurozone)
(Vote): No (and I am not in the eurozone)
(Vote): Don't know
Last edit: 2012-05-24 00:45:59 |
| | My web development company website : http://www.make-me-a-website.net |
|
|
| Ayabara United States. May 23 2012 02:16. Posts 102 | Profile # |
A budget/political union in Europe would be almost as devastating to the smaller European economies as the Euro and cheap British and German credit.
If I was Greek, or Irish, or Spanish, I would never acquiesce to outside economic domination. It's basically colonialism between industrialized nations. |
|
|
| Chaosvuistje Netherlands. May 23 2012 02:23. Posts 2546 | Profile # |
The only reason we even need a budgetary union is because we all share the same currency while having several weak countries using that currency as well. This makes it a little bit easier for tourists to travel around, not having to deal with exchange rates, but is devastating to other countries that try to stay competative but can't devaluate their currency accordingly.
I would LOVE a political union that is remotely competant, but I fear that won't be the case. That's why I'm against a bigger eurozone politically and budgetary. I wouldn't want to cecede power to an even higher power that decides over the whole of the Eurozone rather than countries on an individual basis. We all know how well that works out in the US. |
| | Follow me on @raamedia, updates on good TL threads and SC2 news. And also webdevelopment ^^ |
|
|
| archonOOid May 23 2012 02:27. Posts 1873 | Profile Blog # |
| Why should Germany help keep helping Greece? My idea is that nations are like competing companies and their currencies too. Instead of using the euro why aren't smaller nations pegging their own currencies to bigger ones? This type of scenario is beneficial for countries such as Greece as they don't have to go through internal devaluation as they just can "depegging" their ties to a mightier currency. |
| |
|
| Morfildur Germany. May 23 2012 02:29. Posts 3489 | Profile Blog # |
It would basically turn the whole EU into a single country, which is an idea i like.
Sure, it would cause many, many problems the next 20-50 years but once those problems are solved the EU will stand stronger than ever. It is a bold idea and it might fail horribly but i have hope. |
| | "Remember kids, the 3 most important things for becoming a good player: Micro, Macro and always take your Dailies!" - Rastaban |
|
|
| hifriend Sweden. May 23 2012 02:30. Posts 5965 | Profile Blog # |
On May 23 2012 02:27 archonOOid wrote:
Why should Germany help keep helping Greece? My idea is that nations are like competing companies and their currencies too.
How so? Countries in today's world are so dependent on one another. Greece economy going to shit isn't going to benefit anyone, and it'll be harmful to many. |
|
|
| farvacola United States. May 23 2012 02:31. Posts 5561 | Profile Blog # |
On May 23 2012 02:23 Chaosvuistje wrote:
The only reason we even need a budgetary union is because we all share the same currency while having several weak countries using that currency as well. This makes it a little bit easier for tourists to travel around, not having to deal with exchange rates, but is devastating to other countries that try to stay competative but can't devaluate their currency accordingly.
I would LOVE a political union that is remotely competant, but I fear that won't be the case. That's why I'm against a bigger eurozone politically and budgetary. I wouldn't want to cecede power to an even higher power that decides over the whole of the Eurozone rather than countries on an individual basis. We all know how well that works out in the US.
There is no indication that this will turn out anything like what we have here in the US, but I can understand your fear given the current political climate. I was always curious as to how a group of countries united almost exclusively under a form of currency would fare after time, and the crises in Greece, Spain, etc... seems evidence that more cohesion is necessary for the Euro standard to work. I say cheers! |
| | "Hey colaboy, you made the same exact post to me in the 2012 election thread. I am so glad that TL has thread constables!" |
|
|
| RolleMcKnolle Germany. May 23 2012 02:36. Posts 721 | Profile Blog # |
| the whole EU and Euro thing is just a way for Germany to become the dominant country in Europe. And well they have strongly succeeded... this would just be a further step into a Germany-ruled Europe, not something I like (considering our history and the people who live here) |
|
|
| drag_ England. May 23 2012 02:36. Posts 425 | Profile Blog # |
No: The Eurozone is a disaster costing us billions, the EU is so biased towards what France and Germany want, migration issues and I'm proud of being British.
I know we're not in the Eurozone, but we have massive ties to it, and are a significant European power, so I think my opinion is somewhat relevant.Last edit: 2012-05-23 02:43:38 |
|
|
| Vivax Italy. May 23 2012 02:45. Posts 3880 | Profile Blog # |
Hah, what a coincidence, i would laugh(cry) if the whole debt crisis scenario was another instrument to further centralize European governance and take away more national souveranity.
But politics saw the crisis coming miles away, just look at the central bank president as of now, former vice of Goldman Sachs, which helped Greece to meet the criteria to stay in the EU. Imo it helped build the bomb to create support for such a form of governance.
That means there are also American interests in play if the bank didn't just do that to earn something.
Gtfo with your globalization. Don't need same laws, same culture, same economy for every nation.So no to such a thing.
The EU already has a similar relation to its members like the US government to its state governments. That's more than enough.Last edit: 2012-05-23 02:46:22 |
| | Auctoritas non veritas facit legem 81 |
|
|
| Gaga Germany. May 23 2012 02:50. Posts 419 | Profile # |
this would be the german reunification times 200... in what it will cost the richer countries...
i mean if the DEMOCRATIC legimitation of the European Union would not be so weak you could maybe consider it ...
but with the beaurocratic mess that the EU is with the top spots never elected by the people ... no way. Last edit: 2012-05-23 02:50:42 |
|
|
| frontliner2 Netherlands. May 23 2012 02:50. Posts 688 | Profile Blog # |
I freaking hate Europe right now and I fear for the near future (the coming 10 years)
Since the EU crisis I've seen nothing but a decline in my buying power and a fear mongering politic system.
Work for the EU or die is basically the message. I fear the EU might eventually become like a Third Reich sort of ideology.
I really really really detest the EU, YUCK it is being shoved down our throats, the people have no saying and you either comply or become ruined. We are being milked by the EU.
|
| | Starcraft is a very nice game and has great character. Pro games are great fun to watch! |
|
|
| Nyxisto Germany. May 23 2012 02:51. Posts 180 | Profile # |
I think European should really try to work towards an unified government. But i don't think that is possible at the moment, because the current political actions that are taken, especially by our government, are really stupid and driving the European states more and more apart.
I don't think that the big problems we have at the moment are mainly because of our monetary union(although it was introduced way to early) , but rather because the crisis management in Europe is really really bad. I actually hope that we can handle this crisis after all and then start to work on a real european union.
The other option, i highly dislike, would be to fall back to national countries. But because i don't wanna live in a cave again i actually dislike that idea. |
|
|
| Holy_AT Austria. May 23 2012 02:52. Posts 685 | Profile # |
You have no Idea of the real situation !
You are machines programmed to believe in your nationalstates in you borders and boundries.
There are no borders there are no boundries there are no states.
This is only information stored in the heads of people, like a flash drive with no value at all because it could and should be changed at a moments notice.
A state or a society is only a programm running in the heads of most of the people and they do not realize that it is just an illusion.
A tree is real, a dog is real, a car is real, a state is NOT, money is not and religion is not. |
|
|
| RvB Netherlands. May 23 2012 02:53. Posts 1097 | Profile # |
On May 23 2012 02:36 drag_ wrote:
No: The Eurozone is a disaster costing us billions, the EU is so biased towards what France and Germany want, migration issues and I'm proud of being British.
I know we're not in the Eurozone, but we have massive ties to it, and are a significant European power, so I think my opinion is somewhat relevant.
This is my biggest problem we as NL also have to pay a lot of cash to help out other countries but in return we get not nearly enough influence only because we're not as big. |
|
|
| hypercube Hungary. May 23 2012 02:56. Posts 1932 | Profile # |
I said don't know but I tend towards no. I'd still expect most voting to happen along national lines. It's rarely talked about but 20% of the vote is worth much more than 5%. Not 4 times as much, more like 15.
In general I'm not against more integration (especially if it simplifies the system and strengthens democratic controls). I'm not against a German lead Europe on principle either - there's a demographic reality and the politics will have to align to it eventually. But I'd say it's still too soon. |
| | "[...] you wanna have a future where you're expecting things to be better, not one where you're expecting things to be worse." |
|
|
| frontliner2 Netherlands. May 23 2012 02:56. Posts 688 | Profile Blog # |
On May 23 2012 02:53 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 02:36 drag_ wrote:
No: The Eurozone is a disaster costing us billions, the EU is so biased towards what France and Germany want, migration issues and I'm proud of being British.
I know we're not in the Eurozone, but we have massive ties to it, and are a significant European power, so I think my opinion is somewhat relevant.
This is my biggest problem we as NL also have to pay a lot of cash to help out other countries but in return we get not nearly enough influence only because we're not as big.
Yeah man, we pay, we pay, we pay. Our BP declines year after year, we shovel piles of money to the EU and we get nothing back. Our taxes increased recently and our sales tax went from 19% to 21% (or was it 22).
Regardless that means even less BP!!!! And NEVER EVER will our goverments lower that tax so that will be carried over to our future generation. Meanwhile we credit our debtors (Greece) huge amounts so basically we're feeding them right now and what happens in Greece? the people vote for nazi's and communists.
I understand why they do it, it's because they are in DEEP shit. Much like the Germans in the 30's being 'extorted' by the Versailles treaty and we all know what happened when they started voting for communists and fascists.
I'm sorry but I can be nothing else than hateful towards the EU. |
| | Starcraft is a very nice game and has great character. Pro games are great fun to watch! |
|
|
| Kaitlin United States. May 23 2012 02:58. Posts 2201 | Profile # |
| I see issues like this as being similar to amputation. In medicine, sometimes you have to make the tough decision, sacrifice the limb to prevent death of the entirety. It seems to me that too many people have a difficult time grasping this concept. |
|
|
| frontliner2 Netherlands. May 23 2012 02:59. Posts 688 | Profile Blog # |
On May 23 2012 02:58 Kaitlin wrote:
I see issues like this as being similar to amputation. In medicine, sometimes you have to make the tough decision, sacrifice the limb to prevent death of the entirety. It seems to me that too many people have a difficult time grasping this concept.
This is why I love Americans, they can be tough at times but they make tough decisions when they need to be taken.
*edit* typo'sLast edit: 2012-05-23 02:59:59 |
| | Starcraft is a very nice game and has great character. Pro games are great fun to watch! |
|
|
| 3Form United Kingdom. May 23 2012 03:03. Posts 338 | Profile # |
lol, Holy Roman Empire mk2.
renovatio imperii romanorum
or should that be rex germanicum? |
|
|
| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next All |
|
