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| iGrok United States. June 05 2012 08:02. Posts 4249 | Profile Blog # |
On June 05 2012 07:48 OutlaW- wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:29 Ryuu314 wrote:
AP cow is a thing of the past tho. Which basically makes shushei a one-trick pony atm. I dont doubt he can become one of the best AP players tho. the guy's awesome.
How do you know that? The part about ap cow not being viable anymore
Because his ratios got nerfed as hard as eve |
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| Seuss United States. June 05 2012 08:03. Posts 3019 | Profile Blog # |
| His ratios used to be 0.8 on his Q, 1.0 on his W, and 0.4 on his E. Now they are 0.5, 0.7, and 0.2 respectively. There aren't many AP champions who could take 0.8 in AP ratio cuts and still be viable. |
| | Mondays with Monte: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384187 | Schrödinger's Elo |
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| Shikyo Finland. June 05 2012 08:04. Posts 20153 | Profile Blog # |
| Hey I just now saw Darius for the first time as I've been busy with other things, is his ulti as ridiculous as it sounds or does it have some obvious disadvantage like melee range and long animation? |
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| Jaso United States. June 05 2012 08:14. Posts 1505 | Profile Blog # |
On June 05 2012 08:04 Shikyo wrote:
Hey I just now saw Darius for the first time as I've been busy with other things, is his ulti as ridiculous as it sounds or does it have some obvious disadvantage like melee range and long animation?
nah it's pretty ridiculous.
edit: well yeah it is melee ranged, but it's still pretty ridiculous.Last edit: 2012-06-05 08:15:07 |
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| Eppa! Sweden. June 05 2012 08:19. Posts 1375 | Profile # |
| Then you meet Yorick in lane... |
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| MooMooMugi United States. June 05 2012 08:20. Posts 4492 | Profile Blog # |
| The ult is about Garen range and animation cast is about the same, the ridic part of it is the cooldown reset but luckily they're making it refresh on kills only |
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| Ryuu314 United States. June 05 2012 08:21. Posts 5337 | Profile # |
On June 05 2012 08:03 Seuss wrote:
His ratios used to be 0.8 on his Q, 1.0 on his W, and 0.4 on his E. Now they are 0.5, 0.7, and 0.2 respectively. There aren't many AP champions who could take 0.8 in AP ratio cuts and still be viable.
Pretty sure it used to be 1.0 on both his Q and W and 0.4 on his E. The big ali rework nerfed his Q to 0.8. Then everything was subsequently nerfed to where it is now. |
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| Seuss United States. June 05 2012 08:28. Posts 3019 | Profile Blog # |
| I used the post-rework, pre-nerf numbers since that's what was live when Shushei creamed people with Alistar at Dreamhack. I don't remember AP Alistar being a very common pick before the rework. |
| | Mondays with Monte: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384187 | Schrödinger's Elo |
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 UniversalSnip June 05 2012 08:37. Posts 4820 | Profile Blog # |
| Pre-rework ali couldn't really survive vs pushers in lane and the ratios weren't really higher considering trample ap ratio. ppl like to pretend it was a good solo though, just nobody except them knew about it Last edit: 2012-06-05 08:37:31 |
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| gtrsrs United States. June 05 2012 08:50. Posts 4416 | Profile # |
On June 05 2012 08:37 UniversalSnip wrote:
Pre-rework ali couldn't really survive vs pushers in lane and the ratios weren't really higher considering trample ap ratio. ppl like to pretend it was a good solo though, just nobody except them knew about it
he was a top-tier mid and an above average top for the like... 1 month that people used him extensively before his big changes. jiji especially
you simply couldn't trade with headbutt. it has absurd range and the knockback prevents you from retaliating
heal had a great ratio, didn't even need to be leveled
also had a great gank assist with 2 forms of CC
it was a really good thing they nerfed him tbh, although he was a BLAST in teamfights |
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| Frolossus United States. June 05 2012 09:05. Posts 1096 | Profile # |
On June 05 2012 08:50 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:37 UniversalSnip wrote:
Pre-rework ali couldn't really survive vs pushers in lane and the ratios weren't really higher considering trample ap ratio. ppl like to pretend it was a good solo though, just nobody except them knew about it
he was a top-tier mid and an above average top for the like... 1 month that people used him extensively before his big changes. jiji especially you simply couldn't trade with headbutt. it has absurd range and the knockback prevents you from retaliating heal had a great ratio, didn't even need to be leveled also had a great gank assist with 2 forms of CC it was a really good thing they nerfed him tbh, although he was a BLAST in teamfights
that was all after they gave him imba ratios |
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| Ryuu314 United States. June 05 2012 09:12. Posts 5337 | Profile # |
On June 05 2012 09:05 Frolossus wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:50 gtrsrs wrote:
On June 05 2012 08:37 UniversalSnip wrote:
Pre-rework ali couldn't really survive vs pushers in lane and the ratios weren't really higher considering trample ap ratio. ppl like to pretend it was a good solo though, just nobody except them knew about it
he was a top-tier mid and an above average top for the like... 1 month that people used him extensively before his big changes. jiji especially you simply couldn't trade with headbutt. it has absurd range and the knockback prevents you from retaliating heal had a great ratio, didn't even need to be leveled also had a great gank assist with 2 forms of CC it was a really good thing they nerfed him tbh, although he was a BLAST in teamfights
that was all after they gave him imba ratios
his ratios were much higher pre-rework. Alistar's ratios were never buffed, only nerfed. His Q had 1.0 ap ratio which more than makes up for the shitty 0.1 ratio on his reworked passive. Alistar wasnt' played as much simply because no one knew hwo strong he was. He did see increasing popularity about a month before his rework, after which he became fotm because the rework put him in teh public spotlight and everyone realized how broken he was.
Ali could survive against pushers in lane perfectly fine before his re-work. 1.0 AP ratio on his Q is ridiculous wave clearing potential. IMO anyone who thinks Alistar was better after his rework is just delusional. He only got super popular then because the rework was what put him in the spotlight despite it being an overall nerf.Last edit: 2012-06-05 09:12:26 |
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| UniversalSnip June 05 2012 09:15. Posts 4820 | Profile Blog # |
On June 05 2012 09:05 Frolossus wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:50 gtrsrs wrote:
On June 05 2012 08:37 UniversalSnip wrote:
Pre-rework ali couldn't really survive vs pushers in lane and the ratios weren't really higher considering trample ap ratio. ppl like to pretend it was a good solo though, just nobody except them knew about it
he was a top-tier mid and an above average top for the like... 1 month that people used him extensively before his big changes. jiji especially you simply couldn't trade with headbutt. it has absurd range and the knockback prevents you from retaliating heal had a great ratio, didn't even need to be leveled also had a great gank assist with 2 forms of CC it was a really good thing they nerfed him tbh, although he was a BLAST in teamfights
that was all after they gave him imba ratios
He always had imba ratios. Here's the timeline
Phase 1 (Before my Time): Ali was imba tank straight tank. 2.5 second stun on Q, longer ult duration, tanky items were MUCH stronger generally, E healed allies for 100%. Had 1.0 Q and W ratios, but nobody played him AP.
Phase 2: They nerfed him and nobody thought he was good anymore.
Phase 3: They start looking into remaking him, eventually they figure out he's actually very good just nobody is playing him. Then they do remake him, giving him his current passive. His AP ratios don't really go down since he got one on his passive. Crucially for most of phase 2 deathcap didn't exist but at this point it did. So now AP cow is really imba. He's king assassin, everybody plays him, he gets nerfed constantly until he lands where he is now.
Personally I feel AP cow wasn't secretly insane during phase 2. He really had no tools vs good pushers. For example sion was very strong at the time and I don't know wtf old cow is supposed to do vs him.Last edit: 2012-06-05 09:16:21 |
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| Ryuu314 United States. June 05 2012 09:21. Posts 5337 | Profile # |
On June 05 2012 09:15 UniversalSnip wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 09:05 Frolossus wrote:
On June 05 2012 08:50 gtrsrs wrote:
On June 05 2012 08:37 UniversalSnip wrote:
Pre-rework ali couldn't really survive vs pushers in lane and the ratios weren't really higher considering trample ap ratio. ppl like to pretend it was a good solo though, just nobody except them knew about it
he was a top-tier mid and an above average top for the like... 1 month that people used him extensively before his big changes. jiji especially you simply couldn't trade with headbutt. it has absurd range and the knockback prevents you from retaliating heal had a great ratio, didn't even need to be leveled also had a great gank assist with 2 forms of CC it was a really good thing they nerfed him tbh, although he was a BLAST in teamfights
that was all after they gave him imba ratios
He always had imba ratios. Here's the timeline Phase 1 (Before my Time): Ali was imba tank straight tank. 2.5 second stun on Q, longer ult duration, tanky items were MUCH stronger generally, E healed allies for 100%. Had 1.0 Q and W ratios, but nobody played him AP. Phase 2: They nerfed him and nobody thought he was good anymore. Phase 3: They start looking into remaking him, eventually they figure out he's actually very good just nobody is playing him. Then they do remake him, giving him his current passive. His AP ratios don't really go down since he got one on his passive. Crucially for most of phase 2 deathcap didn't exist but at this point it did. So now AP cow is really imba. He's king assassin, everybody plays him, he gets nerfed constantly until he lands where he is now. Personally I feel AP cow wasn't secretly insane during phase 2. He really had no tools vs good pushers. For example sion was very strong at the time and I don't know wtf old cow is supposed to do vs him.
Your so-called phase 2 nerfs did not touch AP alistar at all. People stopped playing him and thought he sucked because everyone was playing as a pure tank.
They reduced the stuntime on his Q from 2.5 seconds to 2 seconds (both times include the knockup duration as part of the "stun time"). They made it so his E doesn't heal 100% to allies, but reduced the cd reduction from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. They also nerfed duration on his ulti by 2 seconds.
Ali was just as strong against pushers as he was after rework. I really don't know why you think he wasn't. Pulverize wave clears pretty darn well. Cow raped Sion before and after the rework. Seeing how you had equivalent ratios and base damages, if Sion shields, you headbutt/pulv him and pop his shield. Not only that, but a 0.4 ratio heal to your minions works really damn well as an anti-push too.Last edit: 2012-06-05 09:22:12 |
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| Eppa! Sweden. June 05 2012 09:23. Posts 1375 | Profile # |
Once zonyas ring came into the game RoA became obsolete. Sustain was incredible at this point in time mid. I think this around the glory time of Alistar mid. RoA buff and Zonya split where both terrible for alistar.
Edit: I am going to bed now I will write up a big post tommorow Last edit: 2012-06-05 09:54:05 |
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| Ryuu314 United States. June 05 2012 09:29. Posts 5337 | Profile # |
On June 05 2012 09:23 Eppa! wrote:
Once zonyas ring came into the game RoA became obsolete. Sustain was incredible at this point in time mid. I think this around the glory time of Alistar mid. RoA buff and Zonya split where both terrible for alistar.
I'm a little confused. How exactly was RoA buff and Zhonya split bad for alistar? Ali had no problem sustaining with his imba E. Zhonyas split was actually good for Ali seeing how the split gave more AP for champs than the old Zhonyas. The only champs that were hurt by the Zhonyas split were champs that really relied on the active, like Kennen. Not only that but Ali was actually better played top lane against all the melee champs. Melee champs couldn't do anything against headbutt/pulverize. They couldn't cs or retaliate.Last edit: 2012-06-05 09:30:01 |
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| UniversalSnip June 05 2012 09:32. Posts 4820 | Profile Blog # |
On June 05 2012 09:21 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 09:15 UniversalSnip wrote:
On June 05 2012 09:05 Frolossus wrote:
On June 05 2012 08:50 gtrsrs wrote:
On June 05 2012 08:37 UniversalSnip wrote:
Pre-rework ali couldn't really survive vs pushers in lane and the ratios weren't really higher considering trample ap ratio. ppl like to pretend it was a good solo though, just nobody except them knew about it
he was a top-tier mid and an above average top for the like... 1 month that people used him extensively before his big changes. jiji especially you simply couldn't trade with headbutt. it has absurd range and the knockback prevents you from retaliating heal had a great ratio, didn't even need to be leveled also had a great gank assist with 2 forms of CC it was a really good thing they nerfed him tbh, although he was a BLAST in teamfights
that was all after they gave him imba ratios
He always had imba ratios. Here's the timeline Phase 1 (Before my Time): Ali was imba tank straight tank. 2.5 second stun on Q, longer ult duration, tanky items were MUCH stronger generally, E healed allies for 100%. Had 1.0 Q and W ratios, but nobody played him AP. Phase 2: They nerfed him and nobody thought he was good anymore. Phase 3: They start looking into remaking him, eventually they figure out he's actually very good just nobody is playing him. Then they do remake him, giving him his current passive. His AP ratios don't really go down since he got one on his passive. Crucially for most of phase 2 deathcap didn't exist but at this point it did. So now AP cow is really imba. He's king assassin, everybody plays him, he gets nerfed constantly until he lands where he is now. Personally I feel AP cow wasn't secretly insane during phase 2. He really had no tools vs good pushers. For example sion was very strong at the time and I don't know wtf old cow is supposed to do vs him.
Your so-called phase 2 nerfs did not touch AP alistar at all. People stopped playing him and thought he sucked because everyone was playing as a pure tank.
What do you mean so-called phase 2 nerfs? Did you read what I wrote? I thought it was a pretty good overview.
They reduced the stuntime on his Q from 2.5 seconds to 2 seconds (both times include the knockup duration as part of the "stun time"). They made it so his E doesn't heal 100% to allies, but reduced the cd reduction from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. They also nerfed duration on his ulti by 2 seconds.
Ok, you did read what I wrote, since you repeated it for no evident reason. Alistar has received a number of nerfs, I provided the timeline so they wouldn't get mixed up. I haven't said anything about how good AP was in phase 1, I don't know where you think I'm coming from.
Ali was just as strong against pushers as he was after rework. I really don't know why you think he wasn't. Pulverize wave clears pretty darn well. Cow raped Sion before and after the rework. Seeing how you had equivalent ratios and base damages, if Sion shields, you headbutt/pulv him and pop his shield. Not only that, but a 0.4 ratio heal to your minions works really damn well as an anti-push too.
If he shields and you combo it, congrats, you used way more mana than he had to and you didn't get anywhere. It takes a while before you can pulverize every wave and not take any risk doing it, sion has a shield so he's protected while he clears shit.Last edit: 2012-06-05 09:32:59 |
| | Had you ever considered that all this is your fault? Your presence creates these animals... |
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| UniversalSnip June 05 2012 09:33. Posts 4820 | Profile Blog # |
On June 05 2012 09:23 Eppa! wrote:
Once zonyas ring came into the game RoA became obsolete. Sustain was incredible at this point in time mid. I think this around the glory time of Alistar mid. RoA buff and Zonya split where both terrible for alistar.
no no no... this is all so wrong... zhonya split was the best thing that ever happend for his AP build.Last edit: 2012-06-05 09:34:08 |
| | Had you ever considered that all this is your fault? Your presence creates these animals... |
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| Ryuu314 United States. June 05 2012 09:36. Posts 5337 | Profile # |
On June 05 2012 09:32 UniversalSnip wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 09:21 Ryuu314 wrote:
On June 05 2012 09:15 UniversalSnip wrote:
On June 05 2012 09:05 Frolossus wrote:
On June 05 2012 08:50 gtrsrs wrote:
On June 05 2012 08:37 UniversalSnip wrote:
Pre-rework ali couldn't really survive vs pushers in lane and the ratios weren't really higher considering trample ap ratio. ppl like to pretend it was a good solo though, just nobody except them knew about it
he was a top-tier mid and an above average top for the like... 1 month that people used him extensively before his big changes. jiji especially you simply couldn't trade with headbutt. it has absurd range and the knockback prevents you from retaliating heal had a great ratio, didn't even need to be leveled also had a great gank assist with 2 forms of CC it was a really good thing they nerfed him tbh, although he was a BLAST in teamfights
that was all after they gave him imba ratios
He always had imba ratios. Here's the timeline Phase 1 (Before my Time): Ali was imba tank straight tank. 2.5 second stun on Q, longer ult duration, tanky items were MUCH stronger generally, E healed allies for 100%. Had 1.0 Q and W ratios, but nobody played him AP. Phase 2: They nerfed him and nobody thought he was good anymore. Phase 3: They start looking into remaking him, eventually they figure out he's actually very good just nobody is playing him. Then they do remake him, giving him his current passive. His AP ratios don't really go down since he got one on his passive. Crucially for most of phase 2 deathcap didn't exist but at this point it did. So now AP cow is really imba. He's king assassin, everybody plays him, he gets nerfed constantly until he lands where he is now. Personally I feel AP cow wasn't secretly insane during phase 2. He really had no tools vs good pushers. For example sion was very strong at the time and I don't know wtf old cow is supposed to do vs him.
Your so-called phase 2 nerfs did not touch AP alistar at all. People stopped playing him and thought he sucked because everyone was playing as a pure tank.
What do you mean so-called phase 2 nerfs? Did you read what I wrote? I thought it was a pretty good overview.
Show nested quote +They reduced the stuntime on his Q from 2.5 seconds to 2 seconds (both times include the knockup duration as part of the "stun time"). They made it so his E doesn't heal 100% to allies, but reduced the cd reduction from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. They also nerfed duration on his ulti by 2 seconds.
Ok, you did read what I wrote, since you repeated it for no evident reason. Alistar has received a number of nerfs, I provided the timeline so they wouldn't get mixed up. I haven't said anything about how good AP was in phase 1, I don't know where you think I'm coming from.
Show nested quote +Ali was just as strong against pushers as he was after rework. I really don't know why you think he wasn't. Pulverize wave clears pretty darn well. Cow raped Sion before and after the rework. Seeing how you had equivalent ratios and base damages, if Sion shields, you headbutt/pulv him and pop his shield. Not only that, but a 0.4 ratio heal to your minions works really damn well as an anti-push too.
If he shields and you combo it, congrats, you used way more mana than he had to and you didn't get anywhere. It takes a while before you can pulverize every wave and not take any risk doing it, sion has a shield so he's protected while he clears shit.
It sounded like you were saying AP ali was nerfed in phase 2. If you weren't then I apologize for assuming that.
Against Sion, Ali's headbutt costs the exact same amount of mana as Sion's shield. Furthermore, Sion's shield was easily popped using headbutt and 1 auto. You definitely will not run oom before Sion does. Keep in mind this was way before Sion received mana buffs. If you pop his shield Sion has no pushign power and no damage. At which point the lane is tilted in your favor since you have superior sustain and can push with E.
Some numbers v. 1.0.0.105:
+ Show Spoiler +Ali's Headbutt
Mana cost: 70/80/90/100/110
Damage: 90/140/190/245/300
Ali's Mana
Mana: 192 (+33 mana per level)
Mana Regen: 6.45 (+0.45 per level)
Sion's Shield
Mana cost: 70/80/90/100/110
Damage/Strength:110/160/210/260/310
Sion's Mana
Mana: 175 (+25 per level)
Mana Regen: 6.3 (+0.4) Last edit: 2012-06-05 09:42:17 |
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| UniversalSnip June 05 2012 09:40. Posts 4820 | Profile Blog # |
| How are you going to headbutt him and auto him? That is part of headbutt, it knocks you out of auto range. If you just randomly bump him with it he's going to hit you with Q, pop the shield and you just used mana to take free damage. It doesn't amke much sense. |
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