| starfury United States. May 24 2012 10:33. Posts 20 | Profile # |
Hi there. This is my first attempt at a guide so please bear with me!
This is the build that ZeNEX_SuHoSin (aka ZeNEXLine) used vs all 3 of his Terran opponents in Group C of the GSL Season 3 Up and Down matches. It is a 3-base variation on Roach/Ling/Bane all-ins and features aggression at 9 minutes to attempt to deal damage while at the same time having 3 bases to heavily drone and tech up safely behind your aggression and/or standing army. Additionally, if your opponent scouts the 3rd they may not expect your aggression. This attack will most likely not be a killing blow unless your opponent has been very greedy, but it should do enough damage to put you ahead. I believe it will be most effective against a 1-rax expand followed by reactored hellions and barracks, barracks and medivac, or pure barracks followups.
The build:
10 OL
11/10 Drone (Extractor trick, scout with 10th drone)
15 Hatch
17 Pool
Drones to 18
18 OL
Drones to 21
21 2 Queens (Double inject on completion)
25 2 sets of Lings
27 OL
27 Drone
28 Extractor
27 Drone
28 Queen (Can lay 2 tumors and then send to 3rd base for injects)
30 Drone
31 Drone
32 OL
Drones to 44 (Drop 3rd base at 300 minerals, Line put his up around 5:30)
44 Roach warren, extractor, ling speed
Drones to 44
5 OLs
7 Roaches
Baneling nest
Zerglings (maximum to 86 supply worth - a total of 58 zerglings; about half of these would be a reinforcement to your push, so the final few supply should be your choice between drones and lings)
The aggression:
Send your roaches across the map to the outside of your opponent's base, pushing back any hellions that may be on the map. Rallying lings to your roaches. Morph banes as resources allow on completion of Baneling nest; should be around 8-10. Bust in to try to take down SCVs and units. Send roaches after any hellions, lings and banes against marines and marauders. Try to keep 2 banes and a few extra units to send after SCVs and mules at the natural. Make sure not to overcommit if they are well-defended. Banshees and siege mode will be very good against this push.
The followup:
During and immediately following this attack, morph Lair, take all gases at main and nat and saturate both, and saturate and take both gases at 3rd.
Your attack will hopefully have done cost effective damage, delaying any pushes and keeping your opponent on the defensive while you safely saturate your 3rd. If you didn't throw your units away you should be able to defend any drops or immediate pushes with your leftover army while you tech up.
Line followed up his attack with burrow, baneling speed, a spire, and double upgrades. I imagine you could transition to infestors very easily as well.
Some notes:
I am only Diamond and ladder very infrequently, so perhaps this shouldn't be a guide, but I think I am theory-crafting it properly.
The early scout seems to be intended to check if Terran is going gasless 1 rax expo. The build is very greedy, and could have trouble against a factory before CC reactor hellion expand or one base builds. Additionally, the push would be shut down by an early banshee or quick siege mode.
I believe it is most effective against CC followed by reactor hellion into barracks or pure barracks followups. If late reactored hellions hit you then I believe it is a good bet to do the full ling bane aggression while your roaches chase the hellions back to the opponent's base. Siege mode will totally shut down your push and you should back off if they have it (but that should be unlikely if they opened reactor hellion); your army can hold off any pushes they might try while you drone and tech. Banshees will also be very effective against it, so if you see one then switch out of the aggression ASAP.
Examples:
Vs Polt: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67539/?set=4
Vs jjakji: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67539/?set=6
Vs Ryung: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67539/?set=8 (This game was after Ryung had seen him do the same build to both Polt and jjakji, and the banshees seem to counter it pretty well. As such, Line stopped ling production, didn't morph banes and began to drone up as soon as he saw the banshee. He was still able to kill almost all of the hellions and a few SCVs. The resulting loss I believe was due to his poor reaction to Ryung's mech build.)
Hope this is helpful, feel free to provide replays or comments! |
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| Archile United States. May 24 2012 10:36. Posts 359 | Profile # |
thanks for the build, been looking for some good Roach-Bane agression builds, but was too lazy to get them from games myself xD
nice guide  |
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| Andromedan May 24 2012 13:57. Posts 61 | Profile # |
| You say that this aggression sets up a nice 3rd expansion. That said, is the build contingent on doing significant damage? or can you just pull back if (said fast siege/banshee/etc) or something repels you? |
| | master level zerg looking for practice partners. AndromedaOD.460 |
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| ROOTKane Canada. May 24 2012 14:58. Posts 1604 | Profile Blog # |
very similar to the stephano style of zvt.
vs 1 rax fe --> reactor hellion --> banshee/cloaked banshee this gets shut down pretty hard doesnt it? and its not like the banshee follow up is uncommon. |
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| TangSC Canada. May 24 2012 23:51. Posts 1612 | Profile Blog # |
| This is almost the same as the DRG/Stephano/vioLet variation, except they generally put down the 3rd after they build the roaches and lings (Around 8:30/9:00). It is definitely interesting, as the 3rd may signal the Terran to attempt to move out to put on pressure (or at least not expect such an early Roach/Ling/Bane timing). |
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| DrBreW United States. May 25 2012 00:27. Posts 6 | Profile # |
| 15 hatch and when does the third hatch come down? |
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| LoKi- United States. May 25 2012 01:08. Posts 119 | Profile # |
| While I like the sound of this, it seems a bit silly to make a ZvT build that struggles vs. reactor hellion expand, the build that Terrans seem to open with 90-95% of the time. Is there no way to modify this so that, perhaps, a couple roaches could be out in time to hold off the usual 5:30-6:00 hellions? |
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| k!llua Australia. May 25 2012 01:14. Posts 892 | Profile Blog # |
Be interesting to see this style clash up against a 1 rax CC -> reactor hellion -> 3rd CC into tanks or a standard reactor hellion into fast 3rd with tank follow-up. (Basically making 4 hellions max.)
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 chebhe United States. May 25 2012 01:56. Posts 113 | Profile # |
| edit: going to make this post into a thread for discussion Last edit: 2012-05-25 02:07:01 |
| | Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse |
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| FT.aCt)Sony United States. May 25 2012 01:59. Posts 643 | Profile # |
| If you add a evo chamber when making the ol at 32 it wouldn't lose to banshee opening. Timing would be well before it would pop out and reach your base. |
| | MYiSony | http://www.My-Intent.net | Twitter @TeamMYi | Stream @ twitch.tv/ftactsony |
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| ][Primarch][ Sweden. May 25 2012 02:19. Posts 302 | Profile # |
On May 24 2012 14:58 Malstriks wrote:
very similar to the stephano style of zvt.
vs 1 rax fe --> reactor hellion --> banshee/cloaked banshee this gets shut down pretty hard doesnt it? and its not like the banshee follow up is uncommon.
hmm really? I thought Stephano was known for Ling-Infestor with fast upgrades? Or is this his new style? I |
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| Belial88 United States. May 25 2012 02:41. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
I've been noticing a lot of people do this when going into fast third with roaches, usually against reactor hellion openings.
But nowadays, no one does reactor hellion (I don't know why, queens still can't go off creep, so hellion can still fry drones trying to take third) and peole rely more on queens for anti hellion defense.
So you don't need roaches anymore to take a third... I suspect this sort of aggression may go away. I think its a sort of 'i have roaches, I have banes, why not'.
Just intersting is all.
Edit: the build is not weak to reactor hellion... Zerg isn't quite a build order race. A better way to maybe exlian this build, is 'get third around 40, then roach warren and 2nd gas, then baneling nest when warren is done'. If T opens 2 rax, clearly, get 8 lings and a spine, don't be a moron. If T goes reactor hellion, get a 3rd queen and a slightly earlier roach warren, a spine, or 4th queen. This is just aggression that is convenient to do if you took a fast third with roaches (but as I said, less reactor hellions due to queen buff may make this aggression go away snce you aren't getting a roach warren anymore)Last edit: 2012-05-25 02:46:58 |
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| chebhe United States. May 25 2012 05:18. Posts 113 | Profile # |
It's not like reactor hellions have gone away. You act like we're never going to scout reactor hellions again, and so we will never have a need to adapt using this build.
I expect the build will be strong against opening with large numbers of hellions. Additionally if they add on barracks as follow up or medivacs.Last edit: 2012-05-25 05:27:39 |
| | Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse |
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| ROOTKane Canada. May 25 2012 05:36. Posts 1604 | Profile Blog # |
On May 25 2012 02:19 ][Primarch][ wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 14:58 Malstriks wrote:
very similar to the stephano style of zvt.
vs 1 rax fe --> reactor hellion --> banshee/cloaked banshee this gets shut down pretty hard doesnt it? and its not like the banshee follow up is uncommon.
hmm really? I thought Stephano was known for Ling-Infestor with fast upgrades? Or is this his new style? I
he gets roaches in almost every zvt these days |
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| saynomore Norway. May 25 2012 05:42. Posts 149 | Profile # |
Oh thanks man. I was going to copy it myself. It just looked so fucking powerful.
Now I dont have to do it myself. Big thanks! |
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| sheaRZerg United States. May 25 2012 06:39. Posts 512 | Profile Blog # |
Maybe i am just blind....but I dont see a mention of taking the third base in the BO.
edit: Nvm... finally found it in the parens.Last edit: 2012-05-25 06:40:43 |
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| hangene92 Canada. May 25 2012 06:56. Posts 210 | Profile Blog # |
this build is kinda like z v p
User was warned for this post |
| | "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one" |
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| ROOTKane Canada. May 25 2012 11:40. Posts 1604 | Profile Blog # |
On May 25 2012 06:56 hangene92 wrote:
this build is kinda like z v p
umm... no its not.... |
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| LoKi- United States. May 26 2012 09:00. Posts 119 | Profile # |
On May 25 2012 01:08 LoKi- wrote:
While I like the sound of this, it seems a bit silly to make a ZvT build that struggles vs. reactor hellion expand, the build that Terrans seem to open with 90-95% of the time. Is there no way to modify this so that, perhaps, a couple roaches could be out in time to hold off the usual 5:30-6:00 hellions?
I'm just updating this comment after some practice and tinkering with the build. With the new queen buff, this build can typically hold off reactor hellion with no problem - I usually squeeze in a spine crawler at about 5:00 just to be safe as well. The issue isn't defending your drone line - your drones are going to be safe. The issue is being able to take your third without getting spotted/roasted by the hellions on the map. However, I'm not sure whether getting a quick 4 queens (2 for creep and 2 for injects) ala TeamLiquid Zergs lately, or getting an earlier roach warren for 3-4 roaches would be better - thoughts? It seems roaches are much better, given their greater DPS and speed off creep, but it's MUCH more intrusive to the flow of this build to get earlier roaches than it is to get the 4 queens. |
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| chebhe United States. May 26 2012 10:23. Posts 113 | Profile # |
Today I played a game where the opponent was hovering hellions outside my base, but with room to allow zerglings to sneak past them. I counter attacked his expansion with them, pulling his hellions back; meanwhile additional zerglings popping out. He pulled hellions back and I took my 3rd, and I got a few worker kills. This I believe is worth remembering.
A situational fix but keep it aware.
usually I deal with hellions by mutas and a macro hatch. Havent tried the warren much though, only a few times. When I overhaul my TvZ soon it will be on my list to integrate. It is appealing to me since minerals climb at this period, and usually I pour this into lings; yet roaches are more larva efficient; so this warren timing may buffer the response to early attacks within this window, combined with banelings especially. This strength may allow increased droningLast edit: 2012-05-26 10:30:53 |
| | Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse |
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