Hi, I lost a ZvP where the protoss blocked my natural with a pylon, did not cancel, therefore I built the hatchery at my third, and then I scouted a 4gate, and was unable to defend because of how queens and spines can't protect both.
I feel like maybe I shouldn't have built my natural at my third, but all the pros that I see do it.
perhaps I should have had faster gas for that quicker ling speed, or maybe put spines at both bases, but I feel that that's not the reason I lost.
What could I have done, especially because I scouted the 4gate with my drone, I suspected it when I didn't see the FFE. I've always learned to stop protoss four gate with spine crawlers as well as speedling/roach support, and when this happens I don't know how to stop it without spines and queens.
by the time you scout a 4 gate and when it hits you should still be able to defend it regardless. if not, just sac the 3rd hatch and win with your 2 base eco.
TheFish7 United States. May 25 2012 11:01. Posts 1198
Watched the rp, it seems to me like you lost simply because you went back to droning after the initial attack. Then when he pushed with all those stalkers you didnt have enough lings to fend them off. Lack of ling speed didnt help.
oh, so if I don't build my hatchery at my third, and I build it at my natural after i use my lings to kill the pylon, won't the push hit before spines are done building with the late creep, or is it fine. I wonder if there's any pro vods of this scenario.
@tx.zyclon i don't have a natural, i said it was blocked, and I guess i am supposed to be able to defend it but it's pretty difficult esp. without spines
this is a similar situation and i think the only reason stephano won was cause mana screwed up. i think if the protoss goes for the natural/main then you just die. but i'm also extremely curious if it can be defended.
this isn't a similar situation at all, it is possible to defend 4gate if you go stephano-style fast 3 hatch, but it's really difficult if your natural gets blocked (mana screwed up) and you build your natural at your third instead
On May 25 2012 11:55 frontstab wrote: this isn't a similar situation at all, it is possible to defend 4gate if you go stephano-style fast 3 hatch, but it's really difficult if your natural gets blocked (mana screwed up) and you build your natural at your third instead
sure it is similar. you're both doing essentially the same opener. throw down your nat hatch at 4:20 and do the same thing you would to defend with a stephano-style fast 3 hatch
Th1rdEye United States. May 25 2012 12:28. Posts 809
You got "metagamed." This has happened to me a few times. 4-gate is obviously not a huge deal, but if not scouted (i.e. he's in the last position you scout on a big map) can really be a big deal. Two things that most people do these days that make you vulnerable to 4-gate 1) 14p 16~h, which puts you at a little disadvantage vs 4-gate, and 2) the fast third or third-as-natural. If you scout 4 gate, you cannot take your 3rd, either as your actual third, or as your natural or you WILL die. So the trick is good scouting. As soon as you see a gateway, you should get suspicious. You should watch some OLD replays to see how players dealt with the pylon block pre-FFE when 4-gates were still popular. 4-gate timings are so tight, that that extra pylon should set them back enough that you should be able to get spines up in time. Even when you build spines asap after your nat finishes, the 4-gate doesnt hit until a while after they're don anyway, right? Anyway, you can do a lot with lings to delay the next pylon and slow down the timing. The only way I could see that you would have a lot of problem is if you decided to 15h. Then you wouldn't be able to deal with the plyon block and the proxy pylon very well and yeah, you would probably lose no matter what.
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there are many zergs out there that with proper scouting and reaction can easily beat pure 4gates with just 2hatch ling/roach and zero spines
i dont know their builds just saying its possible. just experiment i swear ive seen plenty games in that korean weekly where this happens
pretty much, if you dont scout that your toss enemy is building an expansion, throw down that roach warren because hes doing something 1base
proxy DT's can hit the fastest at about 6:40, so start lair so it finishes at that time (start lair at 5:20) and overseers build very fast and you can run around drones while overseer is building. use this lair timing ONLY if you scout no protoss expansion by 5:20
If the protoss is ONE BASING (has no expansion) i feel its much smarter to just upgrade lair as a form of DT protection instead of getting 2spores as DT protection because evo+2spores is 375 minerals while lair is much cheaper in my opinion.
if the protoss is ONE BASING nothing wrong with upgrading lair so it finishes at 6:40 and staying on 2 hatches
also im sure this lair timing still should allow you to beat the 4gate with lings/roaches as you want to upgrade burrow anyway asap to combat forcefields
if its a 1base stargate build the fastest time 1 voidray can reach your base is 6:50. so time your evo so it finishes by 6:50. so start evo at 6:15. if you see a voidray pop in, immediately drop some 1-2 spores per hatch and crank out queens at both bases while making roach/ling and start hydra den. remember the toss is 1basing at this point so whatever he has lost just upgrade overlord speed start moving queens across the map pooping creep and dropping tumors and make a creep highway with creep tumors and crush him
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Last edit: 2012-05-25 12:31:10
Belial88 United States. May 25 2012 13:38. Posts 5217
You can only take your third if you see him expand. Taking your third in response to a pylon block, should only be done if you can confirm he's doing a FFE, Nexus first, or 1 gate Nexus Core build.
I would really recommend against taking a third in response to a pylon block anyways - just get 4 lings out, take it out, and toss will be just as far behind as you are for a 30 second delayed hatch. Plus it screws with maynarding.
You can't survive a solid 4 gate if you take your third instead of your nat. Your overlord can see if he's going FFE or not in time. Eg taking the gold on Metalopolis at your natural, even if you prepare for the 4 gate and know it's coming right at the start of the game, you won't survive. You just can't take 3 bases against a 1base all-in...
f the protoss is ONE BASING (has no expansion) i feel its much smarter to just upgrade lair as a form of DT protection instead of getting 2spores as DT protection because evo+2spores is 375 minerals while lair is much cheaper in my opinion.
if the protoss is ONE BASING nothing wrong with upgrading lair so it finishes at 6:40 and staying on 2 hatch
Even if this were true, I don't see why you would rather go lair than just get full 2 base saturation... There is something totally wrong with getting lair at only 25-30 drones, it hurts your econ and it doesn't help you at all. If you watch nestea vs inca, you'll see he gets full 2 base saturation against DT tech.
Last edit: 2012-05-25 13:41:34
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On May 25 2012 13:38 Belial88 wrote: You can only take your third if you see him expand. Taking your third in response to a pylon block, should only be done if you can confirm he's doing a FFE, Nexus first, or 1 gate Nexus Core build.
I would really recommend against taking a third in response to a pylon block anyways - just get 4 lings out, take it out, and toss will be just as far behind as you are for a 30 second delayed hatch. Plus it screws with maynarding.
You can't survive a solid 4 gate if you take your third instead of your nat. Your overlord can see if he's going FFE or not in time. Eg taking the gold on Metalopolis at your natural, even if you prepare for the 4 gate and know it's coming right at the start of the game, you won't survive. You just can't take 3 bases against a 1base all-in...
that seems right to me. but why do a lot of pros take their third before the natural without drone scouting or wiithout their overlord getting there in time? (like stephano).
edit: they also take their third after their natural without scouting sometimes.
On May 25 2012 13:38 Belial88 wrote: You can only take your third if you see him expand. Taking your third in response to a pylon block, should only be done if you can confirm he's doing a FFE, Nexus first, or 1 gate Nexus Core build.
I would really recommend against taking a third in response to a pylon block anyways - just get 4 lings out, take it out, and toss will be just as far behind as you are for a 30 second delayed hatch. Plus it screws with maynarding.
You can't survive a solid 4 gate if you take your third instead of your nat. Your overlord can see if he's going FFE or not in time. Eg taking the gold on Metalopolis at your natural, even if you prepare for the 4 gate and know it's coming right at the start of the game, you won't survive. You just can't take 3 bases against a 1base all-in...
f the protoss is ONE BASING (has no expansion) i feel its much smarter to just upgrade lair as a form of DT protection instead of getting 2spores as DT protection because evo+2spores is 375 minerals while lair is much cheaper in my opinion.
if the protoss is ONE BASING nothing wrong with upgrading lair so it finishes at 6:40 and staying on 2 hatch
Even if this were true, I don't see why you would rather go lair than just get full 2 base saturation... There is something totally wrong with getting lair at only 25-30 drones, it hurts your econ and it doesn't help you at all. If you watch nestea vs inca, you'll see he gets full 2 base saturation against DT tech.
when did i say not to get 2base saturation??
i said its CHEAPER to get the lair for dt protection instead of 2spores
so that means you can get full 2base saturation AND have extra money if you get a lair for protection instead of 2spores
just do what nestea did and get lair at a time that protects you from the fastest DT's based on scouting and you save yourself money compared to getting 2spores
On May 25 2012 13:38 Belial88 wrote: You can only take your third if you see him expand. Taking your third in response to a pylon block, should only be done if you can confirm he's doing a FFE, Nexus first, or 1 gate Nexus Core build.
I would really recommend against taking a third in response to a pylon block anyways - just get 4 lings out, take it out, and toss will be just as far behind as you are for a 30 second delayed hatch. Plus it screws with maynarding.
You can't survive a solid 4 gate if you take your third instead of your nat. Your overlord can see if he's going FFE or not in time. Eg taking the gold on Metalopolis at your natural, even if you prepare for the 4 gate and know it's coming right at the start of the game, you won't survive. You just can't take 3 bases against a 1base all-in...
that seems right to me. but why do a lot of pros take their third before the natural without drone scouting or wiithout their overlord getting there in time? (like stephano).
edit: they also take their third after their natural without scouting sometimes.
because every protoss in the world has been going FFE every game, every map for 6 months.
1 base protoss plays vs zerg are so all in it's not funny and if you have a lot of experiance vs protoss 1 base plays they can all be countered if you react correctly. Since OLs take forever to die to stalkers / sentries zerg can see everything you are doing in the first 6 minutes meaning they will know it's a 1 base play, they will know which 1 base play it is and they will know the correct reaction required. Therefore high level protoss players consider any 1 base play to have a high chance of failure, and so will always FFE or 1gate expand (on big maps, or maps where the nat is safe) and then go for some sort of 2 base timing.
This doesn't mean you are bad for losing to a 1 base protoss, their all-ins are many and varied. They are super strong and they all require different answers. Pro players know those answers so at pro level 1 base is bad. Diamond (and probably low masters?) and under don't know those answers so some 1 base plays will catch them off guard or they might misread the all in (mistake blink for DT or something)
Whatson United States. May 25 2012 14:15. Posts 4447
On May 25 2012 13:38 Belial88 wrote: You can only take your third if you see him expand. Taking your third in response to a pylon block, should only be done if you can confirm he's doing a FFE, Nexus first, or 1 gate Nexus Core build.
I would really recommend against taking a third in response to a pylon block anyways - just get 4 lings out, take it out, and toss will be just as far behind as you are for a 30 second delayed hatch. Plus it screws with maynarding.
You can't survive a solid 4 gate if you take your third instead of your nat. Your overlord can see if he's going FFE or not in time. Eg taking the gold on Metalopolis at your natural, even if you prepare for the 4 gate and know it's coming right at the start of the game, you won't survive. You just can't take 3 bases against a 1base all-in...
that seems right to me. but why do a lot of pros take their third before the natural without drone scouting or wiithout their overlord getting there in time? (like stephano).
edit: they also take their third after their natural without scouting sometimes.
Almost every Protoss nowadays just FFEs or goes Nexus first, so it's kind of a metagame, like for a long long time Zergs got preemptive roaches or spines because they expected the 12rax 13gas Reactor Hellions from Terran, so Terrans went 1rax FE into reactored hellions for better economy, or just went triple orbital. In fact, MC punished Stephano with a 3gate expand in one of their matches because Stephano didn't scout in any of the other games.
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Whitewing United States. May 25 2012 15:25. Posts 5709
On May 25 2012 13:38 Belial88 wrote: You can only take your third if you see him expand. Taking your third in response to a pylon block, should only be done if you can confirm he's doing a FFE, Nexus first, or 1 gate Nexus Core build.
I would really recommend against taking a third in response to a pylon block anyways - just get 4 lings out, take it out, and toss will be just as far behind as you are for a 30 second delayed hatch. Plus it screws with maynarding.
You can't survive a solid 4 gate if you take your third instead of your nat. Your overlord can see if he's going FFE or not in time. Eg taking the gold on Metalopolis at your natural, even if you prepare for the 4 gate and know it's coming right at the start of the game, you won't survive. You just can't take 3 bases against a 1base all-in...
that seems right to me. but why do a lot of pros take their third before the natural without drone scouting or wiithout their overlord getting there in time? (like stephano).
edit: they also take their third after their natural without scouting sometimes.
They're guessing, based on playstyle trends.
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Belial88 United States. May 25 2012 15:37. Posts 5217
On May 25 2012 13:38 Belial88 wrote: You can only take your third if you see him expand. Taking your third in response to a pylon block, should only be done if you can confirm he's doing a FFE, Nexus first, or 1 gate Nexus Core build.
I would really recommend against taking a third in response to a pylon block anyways - just get 4 lings out, take it out, and toss will be just as far behind as you are for a 30 second delayed hatch. Plus it screws with maynarding.
You can't survive a solid 4 gate if you take your third instead of your nat. Your overlord can see if he's going FFE or not in time. Eg taking the gold on Metalopolis at your natural, even if you prepare for the 4 gate and know it's coming right at the start of the game, you won't survive. You just can't take 3 bases against a 1base all-in...
that seems right to me. but why do a lot of pros take their third before the natural without drone scouting or wiithout their overlord getting there in time? (like stephano).
edit: they also take their third after their natural without scouting sometimes.
1. Because they are better than you. 2. Because pro protoss don't do anything besides FFE (except on very obvious maps) 3. They would cancel it if they saw he was 1 basing 4. Because they are assuming their opponent is good
If you can show a rep where someone does this, I'd be interested in seeing it. If I recall, I do think stephano did that, and ended up fighting against a 4 gate. it was on shakuras, so he was able to get 3 spines at the choke, on a map where there is a tight choke where 3 spines holds off a 4 gate easily. he was more behind than if he had just checked first, but he knew that.
when did i say not to get 2base saturation??
i said its CHEAPER to get the lair for dt protection instead of 2spores
so that means you can get full 2base saturation AND have extra money if you get a lair for protection instead of 2spores
just do what nestea did and get lair at a time that protects you from the fastest DT's based on scouting and you save yourself money compared to getting 2spores
dts would hit you way before you got lair like that. Even going 2 base saturation first, would get you killed by DTs if you didn't get spores. DT's hit something around 6:30? You need spores, you'll never have an oveerseer in time, unless you want ridiculously fast lair like 28 supply lair (which people did back in the beta...).
Nestea never got lair... he always get spores. Please, use evidence to back up your claims according to the new forum guidelines, because you are wrong.
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On May 25 2012 13:38 Belial88 wrote: You can only take your third if you see him expand. Taking your third in response to a pylon block, should only be done if you can confirm he's doing a FFE, Nexus first, or 1 gate Nexus Core build.
I would really recommend against taking a third in response to a pylon block anyways - just get 4 lings out, take it out, and toss will be just as far behind as you are for a 30 second delayed hatch. Plus it screws with maynarding.
You can't survive a solid 4 gate if you take your third instead of your nat. Your overlord can see if he's going FFE or not in time. Eg taking the gold on Metalopolis at your natural, even if you prepare for the 4 gate and know it's coming right at the start of the game, you won't survive. You just can't take 3 bases against a 1base all-in...
that seems right to me. but why do a lot of pros take their third before the natural without drone scouting or wiithout their overlord getting there in time? (like stephano).
edit: they also take their third after their natural without scouting sometimes.
1. Because they are better than you. 2. Because pro protoss don't do anything besides FFE (except on very obvious maps) 3. They would cancel it if they saw he was 1 basing 4. Because they are assuming their opponent is good
If you can show a rep where someone does this, I'd be interested in seeing it. If I recall, I do think stephano did that, and ended up fighting against a 4 gate. it was on shakuras, so he was able to get 3 spines at the choke, on a map where there is a tight choke where 3 spines holds off a 4 gate easily. he was more behind than if he had just checked first, but he knew that.
i said its CHEAPER to get the lair for dt protection instead of 2spores
so that means you can get full 2base saturation AND have extra money if you get a lair for protection instead of 2spores
just do what nestea did and get lair at a time that protects you from the fastest DT's based on scouting and you save yourself money compared to getting 2spores
dts would hit you way before you got lair like that. Even going 2 base saturation first, would get you killed by DTs if you didn't get spores. DT's hit something around 6:30? You need spores, you'll never have an oveerseer in time, unless you want ridiculously fast lair like 28 supply lair (which people did back in the beta...).
Nestea never got lair... he always get spores. Please, use evidence to back up your claims according to the new forum guidelines, because you are wrong.
so your argument against me is 10 seconds? your forgetting about the walking time of DT's takes longer than 10 seconds to walk to your base
normal 1base DT's will hit at about 6:40 plenty of time to get up lair
lair is 150/100
2 evo's is 375
either way you look at it, getting 2 spores is more taxing on the economy than lair. the reason nestea got 2 spores was likely because a 4gate wasnt coming so it had to be either stargate or DT
roymarthyup May 25 2012 12:30. Posts 1442
