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| emis Estonia. May 26 2012 19:14. Posts 392 | Profile # |
Due to its usefulness, we're almost always seeing lategame PvZ turn into a maxed Brood Lord + spine & spore vs Mothership army fight. As IdrA pointed out in his Real Talk episode with JP, balance completely aside, it's simply a boring and luck-based dynamic, requiring no real skill or much effort to deal with. In Brood War, actual mechanics and skills were much more important, also making the game more of a sport. That's why I think it's a problem in game design.
So how do we resolve this issue? Removing the Mothership doesn't seem to be the answer, because then Protoss wouldn't have anything to deal with Brood Lords.
So here's my suggestion:
• Remove Vortex, add some other ability to the Mothership that would still make it a worthwhile unit (such as the "Planet Cracker" from early alpha)
• Remove the Broodling(s) spawning from the Brood Lord's attack, instead increase the base damage by a lot (similar to the Guardian in BW)
This would bring a metagame shift into ZvT, because right now Broodlords make tanks useless. In my opinion, it's another dynamic that isn't necessary in the game, though.
What do you think?
EDIT: To clarify, I'm in no way complaining about balance. Just that this would, in my opinion, make SC2 better as a game and as a sport.Last edit: 2012-05-26 21:16:44 |
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opterown  Australia. May 26 2012 19:15. Posts 27566 | Profile Blog # |
| solution: buff the bunker |
| | live report calendar: http://goo.gl/qc4eD | |
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| Ballack Norway. May 26 2012 19:18. Posts 707 | Profile # |
| Removing the Mothership is not a solution, but it is a start in a long process to solve the issue. Blizzard isn't just gonna remove the unit and say "Ok protosses gl out there". They are gonna replace the Mothership in some way to make a protoss lategame viable vs broodlord/inf/spines. |
| | Just when I thought I was out, Blizz pulled me back in.. |
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| Beezleking Canada. May 26 2012 19:19. Posts 52 | Profile # |
| Edit: Im dumb, dont mind me. Last edit: 2012-05-26 19:20:20 |
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| emis Estonia. May 26 2012 19:20. Posts 392 | Profile # |
On May 26 2012 19:18 Ballack wrote:
Removing the Mothership is not a solution, but it is a start in a long process to solve the issue. Blizzard isn't just gonna remove the unit and say "Ok protosses gl out there". They are gonna replace the Mothership in some way to make a protoss lategame viable vs broodlord/inf/spines.
My problem with this is that the Mothership is not an issue, Vortex is.
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| Prillan Sweden. May 26 2012 19:23. Posts 149 | Profile # |
Look at  BBoongBBoong vs  AcE from the Up & Down Group E.
Nothing boring or luck based about that!
The point is that we shouldn't be so quick to suggest patches. There is ways to make it fun and not luck based and I think we'll see more of that now that AcE showed that it's possible. |
| | "Reality is frequently inaccurate." - Douglas Adams | |
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| chestnutcc India. May 26 2012 19:25. Posts 429 | Profile # |
Removing the broodling mechanic completely ruins the point of broodlords. Its also incorrect to say maxed brood lord infestor vs mothership armies is luck based and skill less, if anything it takes too much caution and care to play out. Its just that its an endless stalemate which is heavily dependent on the map as to which side can break it. On the current map pool, zerg is favoured to win such a stalemate eventually.
Balance issues should not be dealt with by game alterations like new abilities or units or what not. Just tinker with what already exists. In this case, reduce the cost of carriers, both time and gas wise to enable toss to get enough of them out to deal with a maxed brood lord army. The mothership already exists to buy time against anything less than 15 brood lords, (for 8 or so brood lords, pure blink stalkers will even do), but carriers are really required for the crazy 20+ brood lord armies. Maxed brood lord armies take a long time to set up and move out, the zerg needs massive spine walls, high energy infestors, and the brood lord crawl is v slow. Its silly that even that time is not enough to get out a sufficient number of carriers without worrying about dying to a sudden attack. |
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| FrogOfWar Germany. May 26 2012 19:25. Posts 1244 | Profile # |
On May 26 2012 19:14 emis wrote:
So how do we resolve this issue? Removing the Mothership doesn't seem to be the answer, because then Protoss wouldn't have anything to deal with Brood Lords.
I thought it will be up to the Tempest. With their splash damage, they could make sure that Zergs can't simply attack-move their Broodlords, like the vortex threat does now. A small number of Tempests could do a lot of damage, like small numbers of thors do now against clumped mutalisks.
The reason why void rays can't be used against broodlords is that they get owned by infestors before they can deal significant damage. So the tempest would have to last longer or do damage quicker.
• Remove the Broodling attack, instead increase Broodlord's base damage by a lot (similar to the Guardian in BW)
This would bring a metagame shift into ZvT, because right now Broodlords make tanks useless. In my opinion, it's another dynamic that isn't necessary in the game, though.
What do you think?
Removing broodlings would make blords too weak against mass marines, and generally a lot weaker, so that lategame would have to be re-balanced. And going back to guardians would seem very boring. |
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| Paljas Germany. May 26 2012 19:26. Posts 604 | Profile # |
On May 26 2012 19:15 opterown wrote:
solution: nerf the bunker
fixed |
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| FakeDeath Malaysia. May 26 2012 19:26. Posts 3930 | Profile # |
I actually agreed with Idra on this. I think some other pro players also have stated this.
Balance completely aside, it is simply horrible in late game ZvP where everything is Mothership+army against BL+spine+spore
which creates an uninteresting game. There is no diversity as everything is the same in ZvP late game.
I hope Blizzard would just redesign the mothership but seems like they are removing it at HotS.They should remove the
boring collosus and put in the reaver or something similar.
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| Crashburn United States. May 26 2012 19:28. Posts 472 | Profile Blog # |
| I agree with the OP's suggestion. I have never liked the fact that broodlings are A) invulnerable until attack and B) are infinite, unlike carrier interceptors which function in a nearly-identical fashion. I'd like to add that if broodlings aren't removed entirely in favor of a new attack style (similar to the guardian), then they should cost money and take time to build and rebuild. I'd also like to see the attack rate of the brood lords reduced slightly so that protoss units actually have a chance to get near and underneath them, which is nigh-impossible at the moment without a mothership. |
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| FakeDeath Malaysia. May 26 2012 19:29. Posts 3930 | Profile # |
On May 26 2012 19:23 Prillan wrote:Look at BBoongBBoong vs AcE from the Up & Down Group E. Nothing boring or luck based about that! The point is that we shouldn't be so quick to suggest patches. There is ways to make it fun and not luck based and I think we'll see more of that now that AcE showed that it's possible.
If you realize in that game, Ace never build a single collosus.See how epic that game's was if we just remove the collosus and put in something like the reaver. |
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| Prillan Sweden. May 26 2012 19:30. Posts 149 | Profile # |
On May 26 2012 19:25 FrogOfWar wrote:
I thought it will be up to the Tempest. With their splash damage, they could make sure that Zergs can't simply attack-move their Broodlords, like the vortex threat does now. A small number of Tempests could do a lot of damage, like small numbers of thors do now against clumped mutalisks.
The tempest was a powerful splash anti-air capital ship at BlizzCon. With the addition of the range upgrade on phoenix in Wings of Liberty we no longer feel like a splash anti-air weapon is necessary on the protoss, but we would still like to give the protoss some additional firepower in the air. The tempest is currently a very long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets. This gives the protoss army some real reach to force an engagement on their terms in the end-game.
Source |
| | "Reality is frequently inaccurate." - Douglas Adams | |
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| Crashburn United States. May 26 2012 19:30. Posts 472 | Profile Blog # |
[Just tinker with what already exists. In this case, reduce the cost of carriers, both time and gas wise to enable toss to get enough of them out to deal with a maxed brood lord army.
The problem is that, by this point, the zerg is on at least 5-6 hatcheries. When the first carrier or two come out, the zerg just holds down the C button for a second and 10 corruptors beat everything that's coming out of the stargate. |
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| emis Estonia. May 26 2012 19:31. Posts 392 | Profile # |
On May 26 2012 19:25 FrogOfWar wrote:
Removing broodlings would make blords too weak against mass marines, and generally a lot weaker, so that lategame would have to be re-balanced. And going back to guardians would seem very boring.
In my opinion, the concept of Brood Lords is interesting, but doesn't really have a place in the game - the emphasis goes from mechanical skill to debatable strategical decisions (and luck?). Last edit: 2012-05-26 19:32:07 |
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| Hardigan Switzerland. May 26 2012 19:33. Posts 1297 | Profile # |
Mothership is not only a vortex machine. I think Ace played a beautiful game while using recall all the time.
I don't know what exactly to do for PvZ but i sure hope that Blizz will do something (new unit/new abilities) that don't do aoe damage. Something microable would be a ton better. I much rather see a micro dance, where maybe Protoss has to chip some units away from Z rather than ball vs ball action |
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| avc May 26 2012 19:33. Posts 121 | Profile # |
There are more than enough tools available for Protoss to use against Zerg in the late game.
If only the Mothership had a useful ability that wasn't Vortex.. if only!
Protoss players are generally used to deathball style play. Switch the play book, multitask your way to zealot/dt warp ins at expansions, warp prism harass, ht drops, blink stalkers into mass recall, put cannons everywhere and if you do somehow get lucky you can even go for the ultimate carrier/void ray, archon/ht, mothership ball of death.
The match up may be volatile and there are certain moments where each race has a powerful advantage over the other, but generally it's not an unbalanced match up. It's volatility makes both Zerg and Protoss players happy to complain about different things. It's not perfectly balanced by any means and some things really don't work very well, but it's not completely biased in either way right now. Whether that changes as Protoss players step up their late game play, we shall see. |
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| chestnutcc India. May 26 2012 19:34. Posts 429 | Profile # |
On May 26 2012 19:31 emis wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 26 2012 19:25 FrogOfWar wrote:
On May 26 2012 19:14 emis wrote:
Removing broodlings would make blords too weak against mass marines, and generally a lot weaker, so that lategame would have to be re-balanced. And going back to guardians would seem very boring.
In my opinion, the concept of Brood Lords is interesting, but doesn't really have a place in the game - the emphasis goes from mechanical skill to debatable strategical decisions (and luck?).
It would help brood war elitists to remember that the mechanical difficulties of brood war were not an INTENDED part of design, it was just due to poor technology. Blizzard did not want their game to be mechanically demanding, and they could not have guessed that it would have 10+ years of success for the mechanical skill ceiling to rise that high. This is clear from their later games, where with improved technology, they removed the obsolete skill caps required to play, what is ultimately, a real time STRATEGY game. |
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 Wombat_NI Northern Ireland. May 26 2012 19:35. Posts 5145 | Profile # |
I hate, hate, hate lategame BL/Infestor/Spine shenanigans but I really can't see a nerf being in order, they are potent because they need to be.
That Ace game was unbelievable, but he pretty much hit every storm drop, even a feedback drop. Not sure how viable that approach is to make a standard approach, everything he seemed to try came off. |
| | 'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - McBengt Also anyone with any questions or desires to help the Irish scene, PM me! |
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| Balgrog United States. May 26 2012 19:46. Posts 1167 | Profile Blog # |
| Wait so remove broodlings? so remove the broodlord attack all together? What is you proposed attack for broodlords other wise? And vortex is gone in HotS, soooo what is to be complained about? |
| | The only way to attack structure is with chaos. |
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