| sathin United States. May 27 2012 02:14. Posts 46 | Profile # |
http://drop.sc/186317
After watching the gameplay my main concern isnt about how the game played out so much but more so about how i should have reacted when i saw his 7:30 third go down he went no gas which prompted me to assume he was all inning so i got nervous and sat back kind of but i also knew he might be going for the third as i saw him busting down his rocks
i thought i could have bane busted or maybe macroed up and rushed broods but i just dont know and any suggestions would be really appreciated for this type of macro protoss i guess im just starting to figure out ZvP and holding 2 base toss and pressuring them a lot but i just couldnt find a hole in this
(also please ignore my BM it was about 2:30 AM after a long day of work and i jsut wasnt in any mood im fully aware he won for more reasons than jsut the mothership although that randomly coming into play threw me off a lot) |
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 dylan522p United States. May 27 2012 02:31. Posts 38 | Profile # |
a gasless 3rd?!?!? a simple roach push would demolish him. The second you see it you shoulda just went all in with Roaches and won. Even if it was all in you would have been able to defend with roaches. Also you need to work on your injects alot.
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| sathin United States. May 27 2012 02:40. Posts 46 | Profile # |
On May 27 2012 02:31 dylan522p wrote:
a gasless 3rd?!?!? a simple roach push would demolish him. The second you see it you shoulda just went all in with Roaches and won. Even if it was all in you would have been able to defend with roaches. Also you need to work on your injects alot.
i wasnt really missing on my injects till roughly 12-13 minutes i hadnt missed any till that point and then only 1 cycle and i cant just instantly go raoch all in like your suggesting :-/ i have to prepare for what could have been in all in from him until i saw the nexus being established and when i go to attack i cant get there in time to do anyting about this going up and cannons being established i was going for the 12 minute max but this threw me off a bit |
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| sathin United States. May 27 2012 03:22. Posts 46 | Profile # | |
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| LuckyLuke May 27 2012 03:52. Posts 12 | Profile # |
Hey sathin just had a look at that replay and I'd like to make the following suggestions:
Scouting
+ Show Spoiler +You do not know that he could have a third up until the 10th minute and only confirm the nexus at minute 13. Consider sendig a ling to the possible location of the 3rd or use an overlord to scout for it. You also never checked on the tech the protos was going for
Macro
+ Show Spoiler +You take your first 2 expands nicely after scouting the Forge FE thats fine but beyond minute 8 things get out of control a bit. You take only 3 gases of the 6 you could have taken and are therefore starved for gas. You stop makings drones at the 8 minute mark having 50 drones and do not add on drones past minute 14. Even if you only take 3 gases you would need 60 drones to hit optimal saturation on 3 bases. You take your 4th at 11 minutes 9 minutes later you have it saturated not mining from it before that. Your layer finishes at 10 minutes and your +1 carapace at 11 minutes your evo is used 3 minutes later to start +1 missile attack and you start burrow and roach speed 6 minutes after your layer has finished. you have a bank of more than 2k minerals several times in the game. Your Infestation Pit start around the 16 minute mark as well. I did not watch past that because imho opinion if you fix those problems you will have a very different game 
Engagements
+ Show Spoiler +You attack several times past 10 minutes. The 2 pronged attack works ok but the rest fails since you are focusing on the warp gates at minute 14 you have lost 5.5k your opponent 3.5k and you neither killed workers nor tech nor expansions
Suggestions
+ Show Spoiler +Work on your macro and build. Get enough drones to saturate your mineral lines and take 5 gases on 3 bases at least so you do not bank a ton of minerals and can afford some tech and upgrades. Saturate bases you take fast ( your 4th). Make sure you get crucial upgrades as soon as you can roach speed, attack +1 as well as burrow are in that category
How to deal with the 3rd
+ Show Spoiler +I do not think that beeing on even number of bases with a protoss is a good thing for a zerg but it's not the end oft the game  You have two options either take your 4th or to deny the Protoss 3rd. Both require that you know when the Protos took their third If you wnat to deny it the best time to do so is before they get it walled offf and all canons are up (Scouting) . To deny their base you can basicly do what u did in that game; lean on them with roach ling if they do not have colossi or ht up yet. But you need to have an economical advantage over them which you did not have and you need the upgrades to trade somewhat cost efficient and to reiinforce your attacks quickly (macro)
hth |
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| Noak3 United States. May 27 2012 03:55. Posts 223 | Profile Blog # |
If you scout an early 3rd late, an 11:00-11:30 +1 roach push with 200/200 won't work, at least against a good protoss who doesn't mess up with his forcefields.
You have three choices to deal with a protoss early 3rd. The first is, if you scout it RIGHT as it goes up or you scout something that makes you know that he's going for a quick 3rd, is to make 10-12 lings and just deny it from going down. Early 3rds are incredibly vulnerable right when they are started, because protoss will make the 3rd when they only have 2-3 attacking units out on the map.
The second, which you do if you scout the 3rd late enough so that it's established but early enough so that you still have time before the push hits, is to grab a super fast 4th (I'm talking 8 minutes or so), get gas on it, and tech to infestors. Scout the protoss again to see if he's doing a warpgate push or going into immortal/sentry or colossus, and make a bunch of spines if he's doing a gateway push (you should be able to hold with infestors + spines + roachling)
If you scout it very late and you already made a round of units instead of drones, you're in a little bit of trouble. You shouldn't be able to hold a 4th (normally), so you need to RUSH for infestors, delay as much as you can until they pop out, and get some great fungals off to deal with his push. If you can hold it off, you're normally able to double expand and go into broodlords behind a spine wall.
Optimally you should have an overlord there every game to see the 3rd right when it goes down, and make a few more lings to deny it and fuck up the toss though.Last edit: 2012-05-27 03:56:04 |
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| sathin United States. May 27 2012 03:59. Posts 46 | Profile # |
thanks very very much for this help guys i feel i may have a misunderstanding of ZvP now when do i want to have all my gases taken on my 3 bases?
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| LuckyLuke May 27 2012 04:09. Posts 12 | Profile # |
On May 27 2012 03:59 sathin wrote:
thanks very very much for this help guys i feel i may have a misunderstanding of ZvP now when do i want to have all my gases taken on my 3 bases?
That is dependent on the style you want to play. But generally speaking as soon as your layer is finished the gases should be up. I would recommend looking at a couple of replays from pros select a style you want to use in ZvP and check out their built (especially drone numbers, layer timing and gas timing)
edit: There are guides, discussions that could fill books on the correct gas timings for zerg do not use the statement i have made check the web for these guides and discussion and replays of good players ofc Last edit: 2012-05-27 04:21:59 |
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 Hadley_ Germany. May 27 2012 04:13. Posts 157 | Profile # |
If someone is too greedy, its always good to just fuckin' kill him!
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| monk United States. May 27 2012 04:19. Posts 6811 | Profile Blog # |
On May 27 2012 04:09 LuckyLuke wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 03:59 sathin wrote:
thanks very very much for this help guys i feel i may have a misunderstanding of ZvP now when do i want to have all my gases taken on my 3 bases?
That is dependent on the style you want to play. But generally speaking as soon as your layer is finished the gases should be up. I would recommend looking at a couple of replays from pros select a style you want to use in ZvP and check out their built (especially drone numbers, layer timing and gas timing)
The part about all gasses up by lair isn't really true. The vast vast majority of strategies only have 4 gases up when lair is complete. However, I would definitely agree with the suggestion to watch pro games and copy a build/style. |
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| zylog Canada. May 27 2012 04:19. Posts 941 | Profile # |
A huge thing I noticed was underdroning. It is typical to have 60 drones by 8 minutes, upon which you can start producing mass units, but you only had 50 drones then. So right away your mineral income is below where it should be. Next thing, when you scout a fast third it means less pressure from protoss so you can even go up to 70-80 drones. With these extra drones, you can take extra gases (if you want to go muta, infestor or hydra) or take a fast 4th base. Instead, you stayed on 50 drones, weakening your attack severely.
As for the gases, it depends on whether you're staying on roach ling or teching up. Players like Stephano have shown that delaying extra gases can strengthen roach timings or speed up the production of extra hatcheries.
One more thing, often players will go with lair before ling speed or any other upgrades. Then, once lair is done you can go for roach speed. This is extremely important if you're planning to put on roach pressure, as slow roaches have much less micro potential. You didn't even start your roach speed until 16 minutes. |
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