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 Masvidal Korea (South). May 27 2012 17:53. Posts 213 | Profile # |
I want to get one thing out of the way first - I love the direction the ladder map pool has been going in. I was extremely skeptical at first, but now Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, and Ohana are probably my three favorite maps, and I don't miss Shattered Temple at all.
However, some aspects are a bit stale, and a few maps seem like they have been around forever, been "figured out", making at least one matchup unplayable, and serve no purpose other than taking up people's map vetoes.I'm mostly talking about Metalopolis and Tal'Darim Altar, but I'm on the fence about Antiga Shipyard. It's old as hell, but I still like it, and it seems okay except for possibly a small issue with TvP.
Each map serves a particular purpose; there are your standard, midsized 4p maps, large 2p maps, more aggression friendly 2p maps, and very wide open 4p maps, etc. Once a map gets too figured out and starts breaking matchups, a similar but more balanced, newer map usually takes its place. Metalopolis has reached this point; it had a nice run, but for a 4p map, its just too cramped and unforgiving. Layout-wise, Metropolis (once the framerate issue is corrected) seems like the perfect successor. It's formatted in a similar fashion, but is large enough to prevent doing to PvZ what Metal has, and I think once Metropolis is worked back in, Metal really needs to be phased out.
But what should replace Tal'Darim Altar? The map is an abomination, and it feels like it belongs in the Scrap Station era. It's so bad, it turns the metagame clock back at leasrlt a year in like 3 matchups. PvP is 4gate wars all overagain, ZvP makes Muta ling seem like the most viable composition ever, back to the days when Protoss has no answer to mass air, and even ZvZ is fubar. It's most likely going to be the next map retired in a long list of "how the hell did that terrible map last as long as it did?" type maps. But faults aside, it filled a niche in the map pool as a large, totally symmetrical 4p map with pretty spread out bases and plenty of room to maneuver. Someone just apparently forgot that chokes and ramps are integral features of map design for a reason (and that there IS a limit to exactly how spread out bases can be before defending 3 bases becomes an insanely daunting task.
So, do you think Metropolis replacing Metal would be good? Does TDA need a replacement? Any other maps you feel have outlived their expiration date? What changes would YOU make to freshen up the mappool with an eye on racial balance in the current metagame? |
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| roca Spain. May 27 2012 18:05. Posts 6 | Profile # |
| Antiga Shityard is definitely messed up. |
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| Denzil United Kingdom. May 27 2012 18:06. Posts 3532 | Profile # |
TDA is fine, it's one of the few maps where you have to change up your style for the size of the map, it also brings me some of the only long management games that I love where it's all about denying 6th and 5ths and defending your own.
Sounds like you've had a few bad games on them and just want them replaced, that feeling is not the same for everyone. |
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| Amlitzer United States. May 27 2012 18:09. Posts 468 | Profile # |
On May 27 2012 17:53 Masvidal wrote:
I want to get one thing out of the way first - I love the direction the ladder map pool has been going in. I was extremely skeptical at first, but now Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, and Ohana are probably my three favorite maps, and I don't miss Shattered Temple at all.
Coming from a protoss this isn't surprising at all, I personally hate these maps. |
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| bGr.MetHiX Bulgaria. May 27 2012 18:10. Posts 394 | Profile # |
Yes,Metalopolis has been broken and utterly ridiculous for a long time.I cant seem the logic in Blizzard returning it back to the pool, i was so happy when they removed it initially.TalDarim Altar needs a change in ramp because PvP is a bit boring on high-master/mid-low gm level with only 4gate being viable but as we can see on korean toss streams its getting figured out and 3gate robos or 4gate blinks are the new metagame there.so im not sure about tda but meta has to go.Metropolis is good and they said its coming back next season so i am optimistic  |
| | Grandmaster Protoss from Bulgaria on both EU and NA servers. Proud member of team [gizmo] . Streaming everyday with commentary @ twitch.tv/hwbgmethix |
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| TheAmazombie United States. May 27 2012 18:13. Posts 3658 | Profile Blog # |
| While Antiga has been around awhile, I would not say that it is "old as hell." Trust me, the maps are not all figured out yet. |
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| bGr.MetHiX Bulgaria. May 27 2012 18:14. Posts 394 | Profile # |
| oh yes and please less gold minerals,blizz!it only screws up your maps,not enrich them! |
| | Grandmaster Protoss from Bulgaria on both EU and NA servers. Proud member of team [gizmo] . Streaming everyday with commentary @ twitch.tv/hwbgmethix |
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| HoriZoNXI Australia. May 27 2012 18:15. Posts 269 | Profile # |
The new GSTL map Whirlwind is a much better (so far) replacement for TDA. It's a huge map that allows you to choose your third according to spawning positions.
And yes, Metropolis has so far been an excellent replacement for Metalopolis. |
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| sevia United States. May 27 2012 18:21. Posts 883 | Profile # |
The only thing I dislike about Tal'darim is the lack of a good third. The positional imbalance makes tank pushes a lot stronger in TvZ, but it's not game-breaking. But not being able to mine optimally from a fast third without taking a big risk is a huge deal in ZvP, which is why so many zergs do the mass-spine + muta style. I think it would be decent if they just removed the rocks from the third. Protosses could safely establish their third and have cannons in time to stop imba muta play, and zergs can actually use somewhat normal builds.
Antiga is a piece of shit. Ladder version has the worst positional imbalances of any map, e.g. if you spawn clockwise from protoss in ZvP it makes aggressive two-base builds almost unstoppable, or counter-clockwise from a terran as P or Z which gives them infinite safe drops from their third. Even on cross-spawn versions, it's always 3-base deathball wars, because you can't take a 4th versus a player content to stay on 3 and use drops to shut you down. Watch any of the dozen Polt vs. Stephano games on that map to see what I mean.
The new GSL maps look promising, I'm all for redoing the pool with a few of them as soon as we see some games. I'm still pissed that Bel'shir Beach Winter is being phased out, though. |
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| ThePlayer33 Australia. May 27 2012 18:36. Posts 2377 | Profile # |
| taldarim and antiga out please |
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| Koesader Netherlands. May 27 2012 19:00. Posts 362 | Profile # |
As a terran, I find TDA, meta and cloud kingdom (vs p) unplayable, and I personally dislike ohana, entombed valley (the tileset O_O) and korhal compound.. I only want to play shakuras, daybreak, antiga and metropolis.
Objectively, TDA, meta and korhal should go out. |
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T.O.P.  Hong Kong. May 27 2012 19:07. Posts 4472 | Profile Blog # |
On May 27 2012 18:09 Amlitzer wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 17:53 Masvidal wrote:
I want to get one thing out of the way first - I love the direction the ladder map pool has been going in. I was extremely skeptical at first, but now Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, and Ohana are probably my three favorite maps, and I don't miss Shattered Temple at all.
Coming from a protoss this isn't surprising at all, I personally hate these maps.
True. Terran can't win vs Protoss on Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom. As a zerg, I think those 2 maps are broken too. On Daybreak, Protoss can sit on one spot and defend 7 bases. |
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| LucidityDark United Kingdom. May 27 2012 19:14. Posts 134 | Profile # |
On May 27 2012 19:07 T.O.P. wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 18:09 Amlitzer wrote:
On May 27 2012 17:53 Masvidal wrote:
I want to get one thing out of the way first - I love the direction the ladder map pool has been going in. I was extremely skeptical at first, but now Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, and Ohana are probably my three favorite maps, and I don't miss Shattered Temple at all.
Coming from a protoss this isn't surprising at all, I personally hate these maps.
True. Terran can't win vs Protoss on Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom. As a zerg, I think those 2 maps are broken too. On Daybreak, Protoss can sit on one spot and defend 7 bases.
I can't tell if this is a troll or not. If you can sit on one spot and defend 7 bases, then you've actually managed to expand on your opponents side of the map. |
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| Zealos United Kingdom. May 27 2012 19:15. Posts 2003 | Profile Blog # |
| Why can't they just add neutral supply depots? Apart from that the maps are pretty balanced from my perspective. |
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| Micket United Kingdom. May 27 2012 19:20. Posts 2163 | Profile # |
I like Taldarim Altar in that it forces different playstyles out of all the races, but I agree that it forces you into stupid stuff and some stuff is just imba. TvZ close positions is awful Taldarim. PvP and ZvZ is shit there, there are imbalances stuff too.
However, I would like to see a variety of styles and builds which we don't on most maps. Let's face it, your Daybreak, cloud kingdom, Antiga, Metropolis and Ohana builds are the same and if you want, you could copyand paste all of your builds on each of these maps.
We need more Dual Sites, Crossfires, and Taldarim Altars, except the maps can't be shit... Basically we haven't found that weird variety map yet. In a Bo5, only 2/3 maps should be the Daybreak, Metropolis, Antiga standard variant we see. |
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 Entteri Finland. May 27 2012 19:22. Posts 108 | Profile # |
| Can only hope that they let the community vote again. As long as Blizzard is fine with some little imbalances like 70-30 PvT Cloud Kingdom I don't have any faith in their map decisions. |
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| Macpo May 27 2012 19:26. Posts 453 | Profile # |
| Entombed valley? I found it to be kind of a lazy map, with not much interesting in it, except an easy third, which is quite annoying for zerg in zvp. |
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| Kenshi235 United States. May 27 2012 19:40. Posts 34 | Profile # |
The sc2 map pool is making it harder and harder for Terrans. How big of a map does a map have to be, to be fair for TvX? Atlantis Spaceship? If Blizzard has appropriately "patched the game" by changing the map pool and buffing/nerfing etc, why do we need to make maps even MORE unfavorable for T? Do the balance stats say this is needed?
Hear me out.
1)Just about every new map makes dropping 3x as hard b/c there are simply less area and paths to drop. Entombed, Cloud Kingdom, Antiga, Ohana, and Korhol all have little to no dead space and less areas to drop (compared to metal, metro, shakuras).
2) All new maps make me play Tetris trying to fit all my buildings on small mains like Ohana and Entombed, which I think may be impossible. I don't have time to play 2 games when my opponent is playing one. And yes it is a huge disadvantage for T to put further buildings outside main/nat.
3) I would agree Antiga should be changed to make the 4th base easier to take, so its not a king of the hill fest every game. However it should be easier for T to drop/harass nat. This nat is too easily guaranteed and would be more fitting to be something like shakuras where u have at least some room to maneuver in.
4) Cloud Kingdom is Protoss heaven and is incredibly unfair vs T. I don't mind playing slightly imba maps, but this goes too far. Zero dead space, TWO areas/paths to drop, and can be FF'ed out of nat with 1 FF.
5) What are the T favored maps? Dual Sight never made it in, which I heard was T favored.
Basically every time I see a post loving new maps and hating the old maps, it feels so unfair vs T. For all the complaints about antiga 4th base and metal having no 2nd ramp, its part of the equation of balance right now and throwing it out will screw T's more. I'm all for making this game better, but I feel T's have no say in this conversation.
Map pool = balance, so this is topic-worthy. If you wanna replace metal/antiga with more cloudkingdom/atlantis spaceship imba maps, give T's back the things that we deserve: 45 dmg snipe vs non-massive, reaper buff, space to build, space to pressure, 1.75 emp radius (current 1.5, old 2) or raven HSM buff. HSM is poor man's fungal growth.
I'd love to hear thoughts from any plat and above Terran, especially one who disagrees with me.
Btw, its quite sad its 2012 and blizzard can't make accurate ranking list / racial distribution list. Sc2ranks isn't working and hasn't been updated since like season 5 anyways. Last edit: 2012-05-27 20:05:24 |
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| FlukyS Ireland. May 27 2012 20:12. Posts 452 | Profile Blog # |
I think maps are some of the most interesting parts of balance right now. Like if you looked at previous seasons you had really hard to take thirds and almost impossible forth bases which really makes ZvP hard. At the moment I think the map pool is pretty balanced at least in my matches except on entombed. Interestingly my 3 vetos this season are entombed, korhal and ohana.
The reason why I vetoed Korhal was the third is impossible to take vs terran because of tanks on the high ground and drops are pretty good on the map. I vetoed Ohana because I dislike ZvZ on the map and I seemed to face only terrans that do a really heavy turtle style mech and that frustrated me because the way you win against mech is you trade but you can't exactly trade well when the terran gets to choose the engagement and in the meantime he is free to take bases because the map is really nice to secure because of all the chokes into all but 2 of the bases on the map.
Entombed is a nightmare for Zerg except cross so ladder is not just holding off cheese (which im baffled that Blizzard don't put in neutral supply depos) its also you battling the map and the opponent terran or protoss to win the game. So lets take a look at ZvP for instance 2 base protoss is pretty good im not going to complain about balance you scout and you should hold off stuff from 2 base most of the time. My tactic for holding off protoss attacking from 2 base and killing off my third which is really needed for you to win the game is to kill off pylons and to make sure he doesn't go up my ramp because they he can ff all day and kill it and the drones too.
Then take ZvT the rush distance is way too close for the Zerg to be able to do any sort of trading ever which is what you need to be doing against terran. If he is in either of the close positions he can camp either the road to your natural or third and slow tank push and always get a favorable engagement and you can't counter attack into their natural because they wall and leave tanks or what ever so what do you do? It makes the game interesting in a way because its turtle vs rattlesnake but its a real frustration when you out macro them all game and lose because the map is fighting you.
EDIT: People seem to be saying that terran is having trouble in the map pool but ive never found any imbalances against terran on any of the maps at least in ZvT.Last edit: 2012-05-27 20:14:17 |
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| teamhozac May 27 2012 20:44. Posts 404 | Profile # |
On May 27 2012 20:12 FlukyS wrote:
I think maps are some of the most interesting parts of balance right now. Like if you looked at previous seasons you had really hard to take thirds and almost impossible forth bases which really makes ZvP hard. At the moment I think the map pool is pretty balanced at least in my matches except on entombed. Interestingly my 3 vetos this season are entombed, korhal and ohana.
The reason why I vetoed Korhal was the third is impossible to take vs terran because of tanks on the high ground and drops are pretty good on the map. I vetoed Ohana because I dislike ZvZ on the map and I seemed to face only terrans that do a really heavy turtle style mech and that frustrated me because the way you win against mech is you trade but you can't exactly trade well when the terran gets to choose the engagement and in the meantime he is free to take bases because the map is really nice to secure because of all the chokes into all but 2 of the bases on the map.
Entombed is a nightmare for Zerg except cross so ladder is not just holding off cheese (which im baffled that Blizzard don't put in neutral supply depos) its also you battling the map and the opponent terran or protoss to win the game. So lets take a look at ZvP for instance 2 base protoss is pretty good im not going to complain about balance you scout and you should hold off stuff from 2 base most of the time. My tactic for holding off protoss attacking from 2 base and killing off my third which is really needed for you to win the game is to kill off pylons and to make sure he doesn't go up my ramp because they he can ff all day and kill it and the drones too.
Then take ZvT the rush distance is way too close for the Zerg to be able to do any sort of trading ever which is what you need to be doing against terran. If he is in either of the close positions he can camp either the road to your natural or third and slow tank push and always get a favorable engagement and you can't counter attack into their natural because they wall and leave tanks or what ever so what do you do? It makes the game interesting in a way because its turtle vs rattlesnake but its a real frustration when you out macro them all game and lose because the map is fighting you.
EDIT: People seem to be saying that terran is having trouble in the map pool but ive never found any imbalances against terran on any of the maps at least in ZvT.
I remember Metalopolis being something like 65-35 in ZvT, this was BEFORE they removed close spawns, that map is definitely Z favored. Cloud kingdom and daybreak are absolutely terrible maps for Terran as well, gigantic rush distances, no dead space for drops, charles barkley turrible.
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