Bang Bang Mafia 2 - Page 15

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On June 12 2012 04:14 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm fine with designating WHO shoots, I'm not so much fine with designating the target. I feel like it will add accountability to whomever is pulling the trigger if we don't designate a target and we can get a better read because of it.

Generally speaking, any game that has more than 1 miller that I've seen has been big games, like the large normals here. That's in general. That being said, I'm ABSOLUTELY NOT ruling out the possibility of there being more than 1 as I have no idea what to expect out of this setup.

I'm for miller claiming whenever - we can decide after the claim whether it makes sense and whether we believe it or not.

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On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:
gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim.



Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario.
Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion.
Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right?



Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it.



Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario.

RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum.

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On June 12 2012 10:06 Toadesstern wrote:

Yeah I totally agree here. That claim was really weird and as mentioned I wasn't even sure if it was a claim or a joke along the lines "well might as well claim miller" just to say a couple posts "...lol if I actually were a miller".

The one thing that got to my attention the most was obviously the last part you quoted because he was jumping down my very own throat for saying that claim is stupid and he should have claimed on the deadline or d1.
Here's the thing, he said himself the only downside to this (besides helping mafia bluesnipe, which he totally ignores although mentioned by me two times and by kita once) is idiots calling him suspicious on that one and he forsaw people being "stupid".
Again, this just makes no sense from a townie point of view. If he thinks I'm someone overanalyzing something, that's a fucking great towntell. Why is he willing to shoot me for that one. He's basicly calling me an incredible paranoid townie that keeps overthinkin stuff a lot and concludes in shooting me. That's not making sense at all.

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On June 12 2012 10:11 marvellosity wrote:
Fairly likely he'd be GF yea.

To toad: I agree totally with the mentality and actually came back to the thread to make an EBWOP about it. A townie miller would be well aware that claiming miller would arise suspicion and discussion. VE was a townie miller claiming day 1 recently and he openly admitted that he would be scrutinised for it.

I don't see the townie mentality for multiple times casting suspicion on anyone wanting to think about the claim. He very specifically says there are no drawbacks in his claim post. No, townie miller would know that was a drawback and be upfront about it.

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On June 12 2012 10:13 marvellosity wrote:
Effectively he's saying anyone suspecting him is probably mafia. No no no no no. NOT townie mentality. Trying to deflect attention scum mentality.

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On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 24 hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot

I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.

By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will.

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On June 12 2012 10:35 talismania wrote:
I've realized that an idea I had after Space Station might be applicable here. I was saving it up for a game with a mayoral election and PMs, but I then saw that in this game we all get to be mayor!

So here's the outlines of the idea. The goal is to catch scum out in the long run by forcing them to post cases, suspicions, etc. Scum operate by feeling out the thread, sensing where discussion is going and nudging it along in a favorable direction or whatever. Blending in and all that jazz. To make it harder for this to happen (and to simultaneously make it so that everyone is playing harder), I came up with this proposal.

(1) Everyone has to pick one person to make a case on, for why they think that person is scum. You have to actually make the case, like you're radfield or qatol or whatever. Nice decent-length post.

(2) Everyone reveals their case at the same time (a good time would be near daybreak). This is the part that makes it hard for scum to blend in.

(3) Note that there's extra information to be had here: who participated and who didn't. And why did the people who didn't participate not do so?

(4) We take a look at the cases and go from there.



FAQ:

What's this good for again?

--Forces participation / thread reading
--Forces scum to make their own cases rather than hanging back
--Additional information: HOW do people make their cases etc
--When someone flips scum, there's a wealth of information to look back on. Who did they make a case on? Who made a case on them? Etc etc

How the fuck do you get everyone on the thread at the same time?

--You don't need to. You can post your case before the deadline but encrypt it using http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/javascrypt.html and then post the key later. Yay encryption!

What's wrong with just posting our cases as we make them?

--Nothing really. That's obviously how every other game is played. But doing it this way can force everyone to play harder, better, etc. See the first question. It's not like posting has to stop until the cases are made or anything.

Does it have to be a case on a single person?

--All that matters for point (1) above is that it's something agreed to by everyone. It could be a case on a single person. It could be reads on everyone in the game. It could be a top four list of scum contenders. Whatever we think generates the most information.

Your point (4) - how do we get from this to a lynch?

--Nothing in particular. This acts as an info dump. We can get from it to the shooting however we want.

Boohoo it will spam the thread up!

--Suck it up and play the game. Mafia is about reading things and making decisions. If you're concerned about this, then we can all put our encrypted cases in spoiler tags.

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I will do this for sure. Anyone with me?

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On June 12 2012 11:03 gonzaw wrote:
Yeah I'm not really putting too much effort this game for now (other than just coming up with a plan of action).

Why not? You talked about how you want to get to analyze stuff but then you keep just talking about random plans when you didn't really want to. That doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the enthusiasm?

Mostly because I expect to get shot tonight, so anything I do would basically be pointless (I knew that in pre-game though).

.... I don't even know what to say to this. You don't even know your role pre-game, why would you expect to get shot on N0 before the game has even started? I don't like that attitude at all. You can't play mafia going into the game thinking "I'm going to die soon anyway so anything I do is pointless." You have to make the best out of it while you are alive. If you die and are a townie, you better have made the time you were alive count for your teammates to take the game for you.

And no, the "real" game hasn't started because there's basically nothing to analyze or to respond to. There aren't any cases, or people's thoughts on other players, and I'm lazy to check each filter to try and gauge a read out of people just by their opinion on the plans presented.

Every post is analyzable or respondable. It may not be useful in every case, but there is certainly a lot to go by already. If there aren't any cases, you can make one. If people don't post their thoughts yet, you can ask for them. What's up with this sudden lazyness of yours?

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On June 11 2012 17:25 gonzaw wrote:
Please everybody don't make a L plan to shoot a townie 5 minutes into D1.

If you think someone is scum and really want to shoot them...you can always shoot them later (if everybody follows this trail of thought we'll have normal days).


Okay people, if we have a Miller, do they claim tonight or tomorrow?
If they claim tonight, and we have a cop the cop won't check them, but if they don't claim tonight there' s a chance the cop will.
If they claim tonight however, there's a chance scum will shoot them because of their "semi-confirmed" status (i.e scum never fake-claim Miller, so someone claiming Miller is 80% telling the truth).


Oh wait, here's the plan:


Miller, as soon as D1 starts, claim and you'll be the one in charge of shooting on D1

My plan goes like this:

First of all, a Miller claim will avoid a cop checking him subsequent nights.
Second, the Miller can shoot at day, therefore we can use him to choose the D1 shot.
Third, like said before the Miller is "semi-confirmed" because in average scum never fake-claim Miller, and they will most likely not do it today.
Why? Because then the Godfather will be the one forced to fake-claim

Since the plan is for the Miller to shoot on D1, and the only scum that can do so is the GF, then only him can fake-claim Miller (if any other scum claims Miller, they'll get instantly caught once they refuse to shoot).

So, let's imagine the GF fake-claims Miller, what then?

Then there is another Miller or there isn't:

1) There is another Miller claim:
Then there will be a counterclaim; and one of them will basically be confirmed scum (the chances of 2 Millers is EXTREMELY low). We then let them shoot each other. If the real Miller is faster, great he'll shoot the GF and we'll live happily ever after. If the GF is faster, well then we can kill the GF the next day/night.

2) There is no other Miller claim:
In this case, although we may take him as "confirmed" for a while, he'll be in the spotlight for quite a while.
Not only that, we can make a tracker track him at night, that way we can catch him as GF.


After we get rid of the GF, then catching the remaining scum will be easy if we all claim if we have a gun (and can shoot) or not. Those that claim they have a gun take turns in shooting each day (to actually confirm they have a gun) into the group that claimed they didn't have a gun (of course shooting those we think are actually scum from that group, not shooting our freaking blues >_>).


So, if the GF claims Miller there is a high chance he'll get fucked, therefore I don't think he will.
Therefore I think we can trust a Miller claim tomorrow, and in the worst case we'll get a tracker on him at N2.

So people, this is the plan I was thinking of, do you agree or not?:

To Miller:

• If someone else already claimed Miller, he's GF so shoot him (and claim Miller in the process)
  
• If nobody claimed Miller, then claim Miller
  
• After you do, we'll discuss normally and you'll decide the shot, preferably with town consensus, so don't go rogue on our asses.
  

To Town:

• No VT shoot until a Miller claims, or until 24 or more hours have passed (to give the Miller time to claim)
  
• Everybody, just discuss, scumhunt and catch some filthy scum for the Miller to shoot at
  

To Tracker the next night:

• Track the Miller claim

If we don't have any Millers it will be apparent soon (before the 24 hours or so) since everybody will post but there will be no claim.
If that happens, then after the 24 or so hours normal VTs are allowed to shoot.

The purpose of this plan is:

1. Out the Miller so we have a "semi-confirmed" townie, and so Cops don't check him at night
   
2. Either basically catch the GF if he fake-claims, or have the Miller as confirmed townie (after the tracker tracks him)
   
3. If we catch the GF; then the rest of the game will be easy as pie
   
4. If we don't, then we'll have a "confirmed" townie in the Miller by D2
   
5. When D1 starts, we are guaranteed to have time to discuss and not have a random VT shoot 10 minutes into the day, because we'll be waiting for a Miller to claim
   
6. When a Miller claims, he'll be the one in charge of the shot so we'll be sure no shenanigans and weird stuff happen (like 2 guys fighting each other and one randomly shooting the other one)

Of course this means everybody would follow the plan (those that have a gun and those that don't), so we are guaranteed to have some D1 time to discuss

So people, what do you think?

Observation:
Maybe the SK can fake-claim Miller, since he can shoot at Day.
However, the SK is forced to shoot at night, therefore a tracker on him WILL catch him.
Also, since a "confirmed" Miller is bad reputation for scum, scum are likely to shoot the Miller claim, so the chances of scum shooting the SK will increase, blowing his cover once he survives the hit (and no medic claims his save).
Basically, the SK fake-claiming Miller will let us/scum catch him sooner or later, and doing so to get the D1 shot (why would he want the D1 shot?) and a little confirmed status for a while isn't worth it for him.

Observation2:
There is a chance we don't have a tracker. In which case we can't confirm the Miller.
First of all, the point is that scum don't know if we have a tracker either, so by having the GF fake-claim Miller they risk we actually having one.
Second, even if we don't have a tracker, the GF will still be in the spotlight, because town will assume the tracker tracked him and got a "good" result (i.e that he didn't visit anyone), but the "Miller" claim will keep being alive throughout the whole game.
This will mean that one day or the other the Miller-fake-claiming-Godfather will fall; so again it's not very convenient for him to do so

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