[D] Impossible to Deny Creep in TvZ?

Basically, do you guys think that to a certain extent, the new Zerg buff made Zerg OP in the beginning stages? Before in TvZ pros and noobs alike could attempt to deny creep spread by getting Hellions. Now with the recent buff, I feel that it's impossible to deny creep spread as long as Zerg has 4 Queens out on the field. A lot of pro games back this up as well.

Now yes, recent tournaments would say so otherwise, but in the early to mid game, it seems that we can agree that it's impossible to deny creep. I myself have stopped attempting to deny creep altogether and instead, I'll do a 4 Hellion drop after opening up Barracks-Factory-Command Centre-Starport. If I won't be able to deny creep spread either way, might as well try to do some damage to their economy. It seems to work fairly well too. At the very least with good micro, I've been able to deny mining time and larva injects without losing a single Hellion or Medivac. If the pros attempted this, they'd obviously do a lot more than just Drone harass and deny mining time.

intense555 United States. May 29 2012 13:04. Posts 217

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I've noticed this. It feels like hellions and early marine pressure can't deny creep anymore : (
Lately I have just been playing defensively( 3 fast cc, you can normally get away with building them at the expansions since it seems like zergs are more passive early game now. You still need hellions in case of all in though. ) Banshees after 3 fast cc might work too.

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Silvertine United States. May 29 2012 13:15. Posts 509

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I don't think it's imbalanced at all. Of course if the zerg goes 4 queens there are going to be so many tumors that denying creep spread is impossible early game. But two extra queens don't just neatly fit into any build, there is a serious cost to getting them. Unless you're using a build that is ridiculously greedy you can be positive that the zerg will have no way of roach/bane busting your natural or doing any sort of aggression. You also have the guarantee that they can't go super fast lair since one of the hatcheries will be busy producing a queen(unless they produced one after another, in which case the fourth queen would be severely delayed). Then there's the obvious cost which is simply the 300 minerals in the early game. You can still deny creep in many ways from spreading across the map later, you just can't deny them from getting a healthy start in their portion of the map.

I don't see why hellion dropping is a logical reaction to the queen buff, if anything it's weaker. You say that with good micro the hellions and the medivac won't die, well that's obvious. But it has to do some serious damage or else it won't be justified. And it's a strategy that's been known of and used forever so I don't see what there is to discuss now.

CursOr United States. May 29 2012 13:27. Posts 5524

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On May 29 2012 13:15 Silvertine wrote:
I don't think it's imbalanced at all. Of course if the zerg goes 4 queens there are going to be so many tumors that denying creep spread is impossible early game. But two extra queens don't just neatly fit into any build, there is a serious cost to getting them. Unless you're using a build that is ridiculously greedy you can be positive that the zerg will have no way of roach/bane busting your natural or doing any sort of aggression. You also have the guarantee that they can't go super fast lair since one of the hatcheries will be busy producing a queen(unless they produced one after another, in which case the fourth queen would be severely delayed). Then there's the obvious cost which is simply the 300 minerals in the early game. You can still deny creep in many ways from spreading across the map later, you just can't deny them from getting a healthy start in their portion of the map.

I don't see why hellion dropping is a logical reaction to the queen buff, if anything it's weaker. You say that with good micro the hellions and the medivac won't die, well that's obvious. But it has to do some serious damage or else it won't be justified. And it's a strategy that's been known of and used forever so I don't see what there is to discuss now.

Morrows build has normalized 4 queens for quite some time now, well before the buff...

I think Terran needs to consider more options for denying tumors. Like a couple Marauders as manditory, with the hellions, to fight the queens... the problem with this is the lings. The speedlings are the real problem, Ironically, becuase nothing else can go out there to deny these tumors but the speedy hellions.

edit: Obviously, the only solution is an upgrade where a Marauder can ride on a Hellion.

Last edit: 2012-05-29 13:29:09

CaptainCharisma New Zealand. May 29 2012 13:28. Posts 808

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Mid game banshees seem quite popular at the moment amongst pro terrans. I don't know whether the queen buff was the catalyst for this or just a normal meta game shift. But throw in a Raven with those banshees and creep gets owned.

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GeorgeTheGorge Canada. May 29 2012 13:37. Posts 54

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On May 29 2012 13:15 Silvertine wrote:
I don't think it's imbalanced at all. Of course if the zerg goes 4 queens there are going to be so many tumors that denying creep spread is impossible early game. But two extra queens don't just neatly fit into any build, there is a serious cost to getting them. Unless you're using a build that is ridiculously greedy you can be positive that the zerg will have no way of roach/bane busting your natural or doing any sort of aggression. You also have the guarantee that they can't go super fast lair since one of the hatcheries will be busy producing a queen(unless they produced one after another, in which case the fourth queen would be severely delayed). Then there's the obvious cost which is simply the 300 minerals in the early game. You can still deny creep in many ways from spreading across the map later, you just can't deny them from getting a healthy start in their portion of the map.

I don't see why hellion dropping is a logical reaction to the queen buff, if anything it's weaker. You say that with good micro the hellions and the medivac won't die, well that's obvious. But it has to do some serious damage or else it won't be justified. And it's a strategy that's been known of and used forever so I don't see what there is to discuss now.

So you're saying that terran should just go ahead and let the zerg creep early and just be greedy yourself? You shouldn't have to be obliged to be greedy but to make the choice yourself of: Should I be aggressive and limit his map presence or should I be greedy myself? It's very hard for terran to deny creepy early game so there isn't much other choice in actions to take. Isn't that a problem in gameplay?

Silvertine United States. May 29 2012 13:38. Posts 509

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On May 29 2012 13:27 CursOr wrote:
Morrows build has normalized 4 queens for quite some time now, well before the buff...

I don't see how that contradicts anything I said. I'm well aware of many standard builds that fit in 4 queens, and I think the ones that Stephano uses are smoother than Morrows'. All I said was that it doesn't neatly fit into any build and then I gave examples of a couple of strategies that you can't do with it.

On May 29 2012 13:37 GeorgeTheGorge wrote:

Show nested quote +

So you're saying that terran should just go ahead and let the zerg creep early and just be greedy yourself? You shouldn't have to be obliged to be greedy but to make the choice yourself of: Should I be aggressive and limit his map presence or should I be greedy myself? It's very hard for terran to deny creepy early game so there isn't much other choice in actions to take. Isn't that a problem in gameplay?

I don't see how that's a problem at all. You're not supposed to have the option of effective aggression against every single opening build. You could have made the same argument ages ago against Spanishiwa's build. It gives the opponent virtually no chance of putting on pressure in the early game as well. But there's a downside to every strategy and in this case the zerg player really can't pressure you either. So yeah, go banshee/raven with 3 ccs. He can't spread creep, he can't attack your banshees because of pdd and he can't punish you for getting that massive economy.

Let's remember that 4 queens don't shut everything down. They are great at defending against hellions and banshees but marines and marauders, especially with quick medivacs, can still be very effective when they take an early third.

Last edit: 2012-05-29 13:55:18

Kharnage Australia. May 29 2012 13:39. Posts 831

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I think this is a good thing. Personally it felt too strong for terran to completly control the map with 4 hellions.

CursOr United States. May 29 2012 13:41. Posts 5524

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The Hellions can just run by with zero fucks given and kill a bunch of drones.

ETisME Hong Kong. May 29 2012 13:47. Posts 4865

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On May 29 2012 13:28 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Mid game banshees seem quite popular at the moment amongst pro terrans. I don't know whether the queen buff was the catalyst for this or just a normal meta game shift. But throw in a Raven with those banshees and creep gets owned.

I think this was done even before the queen buff.
generally what I see is that terran goes quick 3rd CC after reactor hellions and uses 1 to 2 banshees to scout/stop zerg's third when the creep wasn't joined between natural and 3rd.
Then some terran would get a raven to help deny creep.

But post-patch, more prefer to go right into the mech or biomech and clean creep with hellions.

Silvertine United States. May 29 2012 13:48. Posts 509

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On May 29 2012 13:41 CursOr wrote:
The Hellions can just run by with zero fucks given and kill a bunch of drones.

Well it's not that simple. The zerg is still going to have speedlings and if he's defending properly the ramp will be blocked by two queens so you only have the natural to target. That leaves you with the typical situation of hellions trying to harass the drones at the natural vs speedlings and a possible spine crawler. There's no reason that should be difficult unless the terran did some risky build like 2 fact hellions.

ETisME Hong Kong. May 29 2012 13:51. Posts 4865

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On May 29 2012 13:37 GeorgeTheGorge wrote:

Show nested quote +

So you're saying that terran should just go ahead and let the zerg creep early and just be greedy yourself? You shouldn't have to be obliged to be greedy but to make the choice yourself of: Should I be aggressive and limit his map presence or should I be greedy myself? It's very hard for terran to deny creepy early game so there isn't much other choice in actions to take. Isn't that a problem in gameplay?

? you can still go all-in against a zerg
It's not like zerg doesn't play greedy/all in when they see terran getting quick 3 CC or FFE

avilo United States. May 29 2012 13:51. Posts 3232

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If your opponent knows how to spread creep well, yes it's essentially impossible to deny creep because they can have 10-20 active tumors going omnidirectionally on the map.

It obviously got harder after the patch, it was already becoming difficult pre-patch with Zergs getting so good at creep spread. The patch just sorta amplified it a bit over the top, and the rate at which creep recedes is ridiculously slow imo.

I wouldn't mind Zergs being able to abundantly spread their creep if the creep receded twice as fast when u did kill it. It's really difficult to deal with right now.

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Afk United States. May 29 2012 13:54. Posts 26

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I saw QXC build a bunker a bit outside the creep and load it with his first few marines. The following hellions can help hold the contain, thus denying creep, for longer.