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[G] ZvZ - 15 Hatch Roach Paradise. [G]

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy 1 2 3 4 All
 
 Xana   Denmark. May 29 2012 13:46. Posts 128
Profile # 
Intro:
+ Show Spoiler +

The Build For the hardcore roach push. (Noobie friendly build):
+ Show Spoiler +

Deviations (For the Higher ranked players):
Vs 14 pool before gas/no gas into an early hatch.
+ Show Spoiler +

Vs 15 Hatch:
+ Show Spoiler +

Vs 14/14.
+ Show Spoiler +

Why it works:
+ Show Spoiler +

Theory and tricks:
+ Show Spoiler +

Possible weaknesses.
+ Show Spoiler +

Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Last edit: 2012-06-13 02:18:11
He who walks arrives.
Old Post

  chebhe   United States. May 29 2012 14:14. Posts 113Profile # 
I'm not a fan of these 4Q spine builds since there is no scouting, and the obvious counter is to not make any spines and just drone massively and tech. You can probably even take a fast 3rd and tech slower..

I'd only consider going spine / queen if the opponent was 1 basing me and I fast expanded. I'm not sure when I'd prefer this to roaches, if ever, though. Possibly on a map where you can't scout the natural drones with an overlord, this provides a little more security than roaches while not forcing you to build as blindly. The defense is larva efficient.. Still if I can get away with making roaches I prefer it, since they may apply pressure.

Not to rain on you, if I ever DO need to use this build then I surely know where to come.
Last edit: 2012-05-29 14:19:38
Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse
Old Post

 
 Xana   Denmark. May 29 2012 14:19. Posts 128
Profile # 

I'm not a fan of these 4Q spine builds

Its only 4Q and spines if your opponent is showing aggression. The first set of lings you send out will tell you exactly how many larvae he's devoted to drones. These lings are on most maps out before speedlings kick in. Even if they're not, if he's killing your lings with a ton of his own lings, that tells you enough.

Check the deviation section.
He who walks arrives.
Old Post

  chebhe   United States. May 29 2012 14:22. Posts 113Profile # 
The ramp can be blocked by 4 zerglings, and when that happens do you react with spines and queens? YOu will not be able to scout a zergling baneling attack if it is hidden properly. It will look like a speedling expand, with 4 lings on a ramp and maybe 2 lings scouting you. I think you will need 2 spines to hold zergling baneling. The 1 spine will die to banelings, any other banelings will hover around while zerglings kill the hatchery. 2 spines will do it. And additional queens will help.
Last edit: 2012-05-29 14:26:23
Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse
Old Post

 
 Xana   Denmark. May 29 2012 14:24. Posts 128
Profile # 
If he's blocking the ramp with lings, I'll just poke into his natural to try and snipe drones. Depending on his saturation there and timing on his queen I'll make a decision. For instance a build which keeps mining gas takes a 21 hatch 10 seconds later than a build that didn't. Purely based on that timing you can make a decision regarding the 4 queens.
He who walks arrives.
Old Post

  chebhe   United States. May 29 2012 14:27. Posts 113Profile # 
The natural isnt even completed yet, since he opened speed and continued toward baneling nest. YOu can attack the hatchery with 2 slowlings. If you built 4, then maybe you could lure him down from the ramp. And If you saw 8 lings total, then maybe you could assume he is ling heavy? ...

There is variation in baneling speedling expand builds depending on when the gas was originally taken. 14 pool 13 gas is different than 14 gas 13 pool. And the 14 gas can be taken at 50 minerals, 150 minerals, etc. You can get the hatch before 100 gas & zergling speed with a 14 pool 13 gas, yet still be continuing with 3 drones to a baneling nest. Players do it differently, to where you cannot pinpoint an exact second differential to identify the build. Moreso players are sometimes not precise with their hatchery timing. The efficiency inwhich drones are send to mine minerals also effects timing. A scouting drone will also influence, which would be difficult to account for. All factors considered this 10 second difference is a bad method of determining whether to build 4 queens or not.
Last edit: 2012-05-29 14:35:58
Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse
Old Post

 
 Xana   Denmark. May 29 2012 14:36. Posts 128
Profile # 
I don't need to see his natural finish to know when he put it down..?

Its quite simple.
14 pools gasless into expand happens at about 2:40.
14 pools with speedlings into expand happens at about 3:20~
14 pools which keeps mining gas happens at about 3:35
14 pools which makes a baneling nest happens at about 3:50. If banelings are created it happens later.

Thus if I see an expand at 3:20, I can proceed to use just 3 queens and one spine. If I see an expansion at 3:35 I know that he's got more gas but no baneling nest, thus he's likely aiming for some sort of tech rush, or delayed Banelings. Either case, its okay for me to get an extra queen, as he cannot take his third early. If his timings are off, that just means he sucks and I get a free advantage.
In the beginning I'd struggle a lot with people taking an early third because Queens obviously cannot walk across the map. Therefore I only get 4 queens if I know he's doing some form of teching. Then the rampblocking queens will have to inject, but thats no issue with proper sim-city and overlord spread.

-- Note also, a good one-base baneling bust hits before you start your second round of queens, so in that case you can just make them reactively.
Last edit: 2012-05-29 14:38:26
He who walks arrives.
Old Post

  chebhe   United States. May 29 2012 14:39. Posts 113Profile # 
Your timings lack detail. It is impossible to account for a 14 pool 13 gas which takes the hatch before ling speed through timing inference. A common build which I use frequently. There are more variations within the builds you gloss over with assumptions. The previous post explains this sufficiently and I am not interested in repeating it.
Nothing you can change with the power of assertion.

You have 2 crawlers by the time a good baneling bust hits?

My point is not to show the power of baneling bust, but to show the expense of the build compared to a person who secures map control with 6 zerglings, builds zero crawlers and makes pure drones.

The expense is offset against a 1 base opening if you manage only 2 queens. With 4 I think you're behind facing pure drones. Even still against a hatch first opponent you may be baneling busted. Infact this one would be alot harder to deal with. You would need 4 queens and 2 spines for it, and queens built blindly. You may even need more than that.

The longer the opponent delays the bust the harder it gets for you it seems.
Last edit: 2012-05-29 14:47:41
Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse
Old Post

 
 Xana   Denmark. May 29 2012 14:46. Posts 128
Profile # 
I don't think you seem to understand whats POSSIBLE and NOT POSSIBLE in a ZvZ. I don't care one bit about the timing of the hatch itself, I care about the larvae income you as my opponent have.

You've got a SET amount of larvae pr Hatch w/ queen. If your hatch is late, I know it cannot be above a certain treshold of speedlings as you have no larvae to produce more. I also know you'll be behind a set amount of drones if you've prepared a speedling attack. Thus if your hatch is late, you're behind on drones -regardless- of your timing. It just so happens that if your expansion is down later than 3:35 I can get away with getting an extra queen as your economy won't be anywhere close to mine. If you've got the expansion on time, I know your banelings/tech will be delayed, and Roaches will be out in time to deal with anything that comes that late. Its really not that difficult to understand.
In the case of you taking a hatch with a 14pool 13gas..? Before getting speed..?
I don't quite understand the arguement you're trying to make. My drone scout will see you having taken gas, and will see you mining from it. If you take an early hatchery how on earth would you make two queens?
- This again means I'm ahead on larvae and can make that extra queen for defense.

If your hatch and larvae production is on time to get ahead of me economically, I'll see it by the timing of the placed hatch, and I know I can drone up more and only increase my defense by making my wall with the Evo/Roach Warren.
Last edit: 2012-05-29 14:54:35
He who walks arrives.
Old Post

  chebhe   United States. May 29 2012 14:59. Posts 113Profile # 
The speedling expand builds do not starve for larva.. they keep minerals at 100 or less. Larva shortage is not the pressing concern in ZvZ. The advantage of your build lost in articulation is in delaying gas, keeping all drones on minerals, and producing only drones; using crawlers forming a cheap defense, and queens which neither use larva. Thus more drones come out of larva, less come out speedlings or roaches. It is not a larva shortage it is a delegation of larva.

So I pose to you a person who fast expands, like you do. A person who does get gas, builds 6 zerglings, stops collecting at 100, gets zergling speed. Does not get any crawlers or extra queens; and who, scouting your crawlers and queens and slowlings, also uses all their larva on drones. You put 2 drones into crawlers. He put 2 more larva into zerglings. This person is dead even with you in larva sent into drones. In drone count, in economy. This person has zergling speed, while you have extra queens and spine crawlers. You have to research speed, they already have it. They have map control, you do not. Your investment costs you more than it costs them. Your extra queens and spines do not help you in the midgame [besides a good creep spread]. His speed investment does.

THis person is ahead of you.

The hatch of 14 pool 13 gas is put down before zergling speed; showing the uncertainty. My point to you is not of a specific build and hatch timing, it is the uncertainty of defending a baneling bust, requiring investment in 2 crawlers for defense, 2 queen and likely 4 against a fast expanding opponent. Yet I still do not believe you can account for an opponent who days his baneling bust, builds a signficant number of zerglings and surprises you with 8-10 banelines, and alot of zerglings. Because you do not have any map control or scouting ability. This may plague you even from a 1 base expand.
Last edit: 2012-05-29 15:03:24
Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse
Old Post

 
 Xana   Denmark. May 29 2012 15:02. Posts 128
Profile # 
You forgot that he went with the same build as I do. Check under deviations.

I'll halt my responses to you here, as you apparently have some kind of reading comprehension.
He who walks arrives.
Old Post

 
 JiYan   United States. May 29 2012 15:02. Posts 3587
Profile Blog # 
your intro probably doesnt have to be in spoilers just saying.
 
Old Post

  chebhe   United States. May 29 2012 15:03. Posts 113Profile # 

On May 29 2012 15:02 Xana wrote:
You forgot that he went with the same build as I do. Check under deviations.

I'll halt my responses to you here, as you apparently have some kind of reading comprehension.

Then you are playing risky, since you cannot scout this.
Your tantrum changes nothing. The build is a risk. A smart opponent has about a 50/50 chance of surprising you with either a baneling bust, or no baneling bust.

With leniency, you will have to build 2 spines.. This build only keeps you approximately even with the opponent. This is the only payoff to the build, to be approximately even. But still you must put gas into zergling speed. A minor bit behind.
Best case scenario the opponent makes a baneling bust very obvious, fails, and is behind of his own volition.

My guess is you tend to assume in ladder that you will not be baneling busted; else the opponent makes it very obvious. Note to myself on how to beat this build in the future.

The build has no advantage except to fend off a 1 base opponent on maps where you cannot scout well with overlords or pressure with roaches.
Last edit: 2012-05-29 15:10:43
Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse
Old Post

 
 Xana   Denmark. May 29 2012 15:08. Posts 128
Profile # 

Then you are playing risky, since you cannot scout this
There's plenty of ways...
An overlord hanging to watch the minerals, the lings running in to check the natural. Hell, you can make 6 slowlings and they'll get there if need be. In which case you're -still- ahead as he made an extractor for speedlings. Also, I don't need to catch up with speedlings, as I skip them completely. I will add speed after my roach attack moves out, and only then.

You've not read the guide, or at least not in any detail. I highly suggest you leave
He who walks arrives.
Old Post

  chebhe   United States. May 29 2012 15:19. Posts 113Profile # 
Slowlings run in to check the natural... Fails against speedling expand, dies to speed. Ovi scouting the natural; not a perfect indicator at this early timing since some players drone transfer and some don't. If the natural is empty then it is a good indicator. But if there are 5 drones there, it is not a perfect indicator. A couple maps overlord cannot scout natural. Slowlings checking natural against a hatch first player... build 6 slowlings to check the natural and you're putting yourself behind 3 more drones with slowlings that are going to be killed. Better to open speed and scout properly, then react accordingly.

But which is it, you can make 6 slowlings, or do you? And when do you build these, within your build order? I do not see it in there. Is it in time to scout alot of speedlings running toward your base - to meet up with 6 original speedlings now morphed into banelings?

I hope your 2nd crawler was early enough.

Skipping zergling speed entirely makes scouting remain weak well into the midgame. So you play blindly the whole game and turtle behind spines, get roaches and then march to victory. Sounds great.

I compel you to learn real ZvZ and avoid gimicks. Otherwise you handicap your skill ceiling. A fluid opening is superior to this. Yes it requires skill to execute...
Last edit: 2012-05-29 15:43:20
Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse
Old Post

 
 snexwang   Australia. May 29 2012 17:04. Posts 188
Profile # 
Congratulations, chebhe. You have just determined that SC2 is a game of imperfect information. Now, please, direct us to an opening that is safe against absolutely everything in all circumstance and accounts for human error.
Old Post

 
 Crypdos   Netherlands. May 29 2012 19:27. Posts 73
Profile # 

On May 29 2012 17:04 snexwang wrote:
Congratulations, chebhe. You have just determined that SC2 is a game of imperfect information. Now, please, direct us to an opening that is safe against absolutely everything in all circumstance and accounts for human error.


14/14, Transition into gamesense


User was warned for this post
Old Post

 
 MstrJinbo   United States. May 29 2012 21:43. Posts 777
Profile # 

On May 29 2012 14:59 chebhe wrote:
The speedling expand builds do not starve for larva.. they keep minerals at 100 or less. Larva shortage is not the pressing concern in ZvZ. The advantage of your build lost in articulation is in delaying gas, keeping all drones on minerals, and producing only drones; using crawlers forming a cheap defense, and queens which neither use larva. Thus more drones come out of larva, less come out speedlings or roaches. It is not a larva shortage it is a delegation of larva.

So I pose to you a person who fast expands, like you do. A person who does get gas, builds 6 zerglings, stops collecting at 100, gets zergling speed. Does not get any crawlers or extra queens; and who, scouting your crawlers and queens and slowlings, also uses all their larva on drones. You put 2 drones into crawlers. He put 2 more larva into zerglings. This person is dead even with you in larva sent into drones. In drone count, in economy. This person has zergling speed, while you have extra queens and spine crawlers. You have to research speed, they already have it. They have map control, you do not. Your investment costs you more than it costs them. Your extra queens and spines do not help you in the midgame [besides a good creep spread]. His speed investment does.

THis person is ahead of you.

The hatch of 14 pool 13 gas is put down before zergling speed; showing the uncertainty. My point to you is not of a specific build and hatch timing, it is the uncertainty of defending a baneling bust, requiring investment in 2 crawlers for defense, 2 queen and likely 4 against a fast expanding opponent. Yet I still do not believe you can account for an opponent who days his baneling bust, builds a signficant number of zerglings and surprises you with 8-10 banelines, and alot of zerglings. Because you do not have any map control or scouting ability. This may plague you even from a 1 base expand.


What am I reading? No way speed expand has equal larva to a hatch first. Sure you'll have equal drone count early on, but with the earlier hatch and 2nd queen they will quickly out pace the speed expand.
Old Post

  chebhe   United States. May 29 2012 21:45. Posts 113Profile # 
Speedling expand is obviously behind in larva. Hatch first mirror is obviously even in Larva. A Speedling expand is not called a fast expand. It is a normal expand. Hatch 1st is fast expand.
You are not getting ahead of a Speedling expand in larva with this queen crawler thing by any merit of the build, You are ahead because you fast expanded. You are ahead in larva the same amount as any other fast expand is ahead of a pool first opening.
So the same advantage may be gleaned from any fast expand, and therefor is not relevant to this thread.

Speedling expand gets 1st queen earlier so it stays closer to hatch first in larva than you may guess. Still it is slightly behind, this is true in every game of SPeedling expand vs Hatch 1st.


On May 29 2012 17:04 snexwang wrote:
Congratulations, chebhe. You have just determined that SC2 is a game of imperfect information. Now, please, direct us to an opening that is safe against absolutely everything in all circumstance and accounts for human error.

THese gross generalities gloss over relevant detail while pretending to make a point.

14/14 is safe in all circumstances, will come out even into the midgame with any build; so slightly behind a fast expand. A fast expand is a risk against pool first, a risk which is consciously made; but justified as the pool player must take the risk blindly himself. The risk is justified by possibly coming out ahead economically. This queen crawler build comes out either even or slightly behind as shown depending if the opponent fast expanded or speedling expanded. It will beat a bad baneling bust, which is probably why you all are convinced it works so well.
So my conclusion is the risk does not justify lack of reward.



In this thread I have not mentioned potential roach ling allin, or roach ling bane allin, which you cannot scout in a timely manner without an overlord hovering over his natural drone line. However on many maps this is not possible. So on these maps your panic reaction relies entirely on an overlord outside his base. Depending on spawn distances this reaction may be too late, since crawlers as a reactive defense take too long to build. Yet if he runs his queen forward and picks this close overlord off, you don't even have the scouting to make a panic reaction.

So if I assume you are going up to full saturation, and escaped luck with 2 queens instead of 4, you will be at 48 food by the time you begin building units; more if you slightly oversaturate.

The opponent will be at 28 food when he begins massing roaches. He will have 10 roaches to your zero, begin walking these across the map. You will begin building pure roaches as he reinforces with lings. WHen he arrives you two will be even in roaches and he will have zerglings reinforcing, while you do not. You will have 2 crawlers and 2 queens.

This is a minimal assumption of your economy. You likely will be building evo chambers for upgrades too and have a lair coming. You don't know any better since you have no scouting information.

The opponent may wait even longer, and get a greater amount of roaches while you tech to lair and build upgrades, putting his roach numbers even further above yours. This problem may be avoided with a later zergling speed, but as you've said you skip zergling speed.

You will either get lucky or you will die with this build.
Last edit: 2012-05-29 23:05:40
Mebd: how are you fucking helping? you think i'm joking? you think I don't regularly cut myself to relieve stress? want me to email you pictures of my bloody mouse
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. May 29 2012 22:50. Posts 1609
Profile Blog # 

On May 29 2012 14:19 Xana wrote:

Show nested quote +


Its only 4Q and spines if your opponent is showing aggression. The first set of lings you send out will tell you exactly how many larvae he's devoted to drones. These lings are on most maps out before speedlings kick in. Even if they're not, if he's killing your lings with a ton of his own lings, that tells you enough.


That's only if your opponent shows you all his lings. He could wall the ramp with a queen/4lings and then hide the majority of his units in his main. He could even bring drones from the main to the natural to appear like he's macroing. Your 2 lings won't stay alive long enough to get much scouting and a queen alone is enough to stop you from sniping drones or scouting for very long.
Last edit: 2012-05-29 22:55:02
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