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| romelako United States. May 30 2012 17:02. Posts 370 | Profile Blog # |
1070 pts. Master League Zerg
How I approach the matchup:
I generally open 15 hatch most of the time. Yes, it's a bit risky, but I like the economic edge when players try to play safe going 14/14. Then it kind of goes like this:
Mass zerglings? Block ramp, add additional spines, add a queen, try to defend.
Opponent is droning? I'm droning up, and I'm usually ahead because I opened a more economical opening.
So basically the first all-in stage is done. Opponent actually made some drones, from this point it goes on to:
zergling/bane pressure? Counter it with roaches, spines and queens.
more drones? Continue to drone; attempt to take a third. Here is where I think I may go wrong because I tend to skip banelings and play a more defensive roach style. I don't know if I'm supposed to get my evolution chamber up + 3 gasses running or expand first. It seems as if expanding before teching is really risky.
Opponent either:
A) takes a 3rd
B) tries to all-in with roach/baneling
C) turtles behind spines
D) waits for lair tech and does a 2-base timing and expands behind it
My reaction:
A) add a few drones, scouting his composition to see when I need to add more units.
B) cut drones and try to defend
C) drone up, get ready for mutalisks
D) cut drones and try to defend
I lose most of the time in category D), just because I don't usually have enough to defend. Bad macro, perhaps? Not too sure. Replays provided.
Here are my questions:
- What's better? Going for faster tech than your opponent or trying to get an economic lead?
- How do you take advantage of a faster lair tech? Roach speed gets me there quicker but offers no positional advantage because I'm attacking into my opponent. Seems like a faster 3rd is viable.
- What are appropriate gas timings when opening roach?
- When is it appropriate to all-in?
- What am I doing wrong in my replays (if anything) that's throwing away my economic lead by opening 15h?
Replays:
Replay #1: My opponent attempts Zergling/Baneling pressure and I handle it somewhat well with Roaches. I feel that I'm ahead so I attempt to roach/bane pressure while teching up. It fails and he just counter pushes and wins easily. What would've been a better reaction? Taking a faster third?
Replay #2: Category D game. He just rolls me over. Did I get greedy? Did I expand too quickly? Was my build wrong? Bad macro-management?
Replay #3: Thirds grabbed at relatively the same time. I deflect his midgame push but am killed after his followup. Tech too fast to infestors? In-deciveness with unit production? Macro mistakes? Despite opening an economic build, he ended up with more harvestors when his 3rd came up.
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Please don't be afraid to nitpick at my build and decision-making. I'm trying to shoot for GM-level and I've been really trying to figure the matchup out. Thanks in advanced. Please watch the replays if you've got the chance.Last edit: 2012-05-30 18:28:29 |
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| evilm0nkey May 30 2012 17:47. Posts 52 | Profile # |
I have a few ladder points less than you but ZvZ is probably my best MU and i feel i have a good understanding of the early phase. Also i always 15 hatch.
I like to get speed asap (delaying it a little if he gets agressive) and a baneling nest. Take gas before pool if i know he is 15 hatching, gas right after pool if he is speedling expanding. In case of heavy agression, cancel gas and take it after you defended first or second wave.
The speed gives you map control / scouting information (is he droning, quick roaches?) and i can pressure a little (while still droning) with banelings if his nat is badly defended or even go all in if he is very greedy. During this pressure / contain, i like to take a third while denying his.
Banelings also allow for a larva-effective defense in case he goes mass ling after 15 hatching himself and they are great to defend vs banelings as well.
Get 2 gasses and +1 missile after taking third.
I feel the player who gets roaches first without getting agressive usually sets himself behind. Because if you build only few roaches, i can just drone and defend with few zerglings in case you move out. Also you can still die to mass lings which is the most frustrating thing ever.
I usually build my roach warren as soon as i see roaches from the enemy or after taking my third in order to be able to defend from 2 base raoch timings, as they are really strong. Dont try to take / hold a third vs this. Its very important to scout a lot for this.
Vs muta you will be able to deny his third for ever and drone up, vs roach its hard to give a general receipe i think.Last edit: 2012-05-30 17:50:41 |
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| romelako United States. May 31 2012 08:04. Posts 370 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 17:47 evilm0nkey wrote:
I have a few ladder points less than you but ZvZ is probably my best MU and i feel i have a good understanding of the early phase. Also i always 15 hatch.
I like to get speed asap (delaying it a little if he gets agressive) and a baneling nest. Take gas before pool if i know he is 15 hatching, gas right after pool if he is speedling expanding. In case of heavy agression, cancel gas and take it after you defended first or second wave.
The speed gives you map control / scouting information (is he droning, quick roaches?) and i can pressure a little (while still droning) with banelings if his nat is badly defended or even go all in if he is very greedy. During this pressure / contain, i like to take a third while denying his.
Banelings also allow for a larva-effective defense in case he goes mass ling after 15 hatching himself and they are great to defend vs banelings as well.
Get 2 gasses and +1 missile after taking third.
I feel the player who gets roaches first without getting agressive usually sets himself behind. Because if you build only few roaches, i can just drone and defend with few zerglings in case you move out. Also you can still die to mass lings which is the most frustrating thing ever.
I usually build my roach warren as soon as i see roaches from the enemy or after taking my third in order to be able to defend from 2 base raoch timings, as they are really strong. Dont try to take / hold a third vs this. Its very important to scout a lot for this.
Vs muta you will be able to deny his third for ever and drone up, vs roach its hard to give a general receipe i think.
I've found that investing in ling speed then shortly after getting a baneling nest evens out my economy with my opponents. And sometimes I don't even use the baneling nest because my opponent decided to get greedy and not try to put forth heavy ling aggression. I think with proper defense you can utilizes roaches, and it'll help maintain that economic lead.
But thanks for your post!
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| Jombozeus China. May 31 2012 08:34. Posts 1000 | Profile Blog # |
On May 31 2012 08:04 romelako wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 17:47 evilm0nkey wrote:
I have a few ladder points less than you but ZvZ is probably my best MU and i feel i have a good understanding of the early phase. Also i always 15 hatch.
I like to get speed asap (delaying it a little if he gets agressive) and a baneling nest. Take gas before pool if i know he is 15 hatching, gas right after pool if he is speedling expanding. In case of heavy agression, cancel gas and take it after you defended first or second wave.
The speed gives you map control / scouting information (is he droning, quick roaches?) and i can pressure a little (while still droning) with banelings if his nat is badly defended or even go all in if he is very greedy. During this pressure / contain, i like to take a third while denying his.
Banelings also allow for a larva-effective defense in case he goes mass ling after 15 hatching himself and they are great to defend vs banelings as well.
Get 2 gasses and +1 missile after taking third.
I feel the player who gets roaches first without getting agressive usually sets himself behind. Because if you build only few roaches, i can just drone and defend with few zerglings in case you move out. Also you can still die to mass lings which is the most frustrating thing ever.
I usually build my roach warren as soon as i see roaches from the enemy or after taking my third in order to be able to defend from 2 base raoch timings, as they are really strong. Dont try to take / hold a third vs this. Its very important to scout a lot for this.
Vs muta you will be able to deny his third for ever and drone up, vs roach its hard to give a general receipe i think.
I've found that investing in ling speed then shortly after getting a baneling nest evens out my economy with my opponents. And sometimes I don't even use the baneling nest because my opponent decided to get greedy and not try to put forth heavy ling aggression. I think with proper defense you can utilizes roaches, and it'll help maintain that economic lead. But thanks for your post!
I think if your opponent gets greedy after you go sling and baneling nest, use your existing lings and morph some into blings in his front door, making him invest in a round of lings. Use 1 ling to check if his larva spikes into cocoons when he sees your blings morphing, if so, just run back and get your free advantage, if not, you can potentially sneak in some suicides on drones, since they won't have a spine when you 15h.
There should be no reason for them to even out eco when you have a bling nest and they dont, they should feel scared and have to make more lings than you. |
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| romelako United States. May 31 2012 15:50. Posts 370 | Profile Blog # |
On May 31 2012 08:34 Jombozeus wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 08:04 romelako wrote:
On May 30 2012 17:47 evilm0nkey wrote:
I have a few ladder points less than you but ZvZ is probably my best MU and i feel i have a good understanding of the early phase. Also i always 15 hatch.
I like to get speed asap (delaying it a little if he gets agressive) and a baneling nest. Take gas before pool if i know he is 15 hatching, gas right after pool if he is speedling expanding. In case of heavy agression, cancel gas and take it after you defended first or second wave.
The speed gives you map control / scouting information (is he droning, quick roaches?) and i can pressure a little (while still droning) with banelings if his nat is badly defended or even go all in if he is very greedy. During this pressure / contain, i like to take a third while denying his.
Banelings also allow for a larva-effective defense in case he goes mass ling after 15 hatching himself and they are great to defend vs banelings as well.
Get 2 gasses and +1 missile after taking third.
I feel the player who gets roaches first without getting agressive usually sets himself behind. Because if you build only few roaches, i can just drone and defend with few zerglings in case you move out. Also you can still die to mass lings which is the most frustrating thing ever.
I usually build my roach warren as soon as i see roaches from the enemy or after taking my third in order to be able to defend from 2 base raoch timings, as they are really strong. Dont try to take / hold a third vs this. Its very important to scout a lot for this.
Vs muta you will be able to deny his third for ever and drone up, vs roach its hard to give a general receipe i think.
I've found that investing in ling speed then shortly after getting a baneling nest evens out my economy with my opponents. And sometimes I don't even use the baneling nest because my opponent decided to get greedy and not try to put forth heavy ling aggression. I think with proper defense you can utilizes roaches, and it'll help maintain that economic lead. But thanks for your post!
I think if your opponent gets greedy after you go sling and baneling nest, use your existing lings and morph some into blings in his front door, making him invest in a round of lings. Use 1 ling to check if his larva spikes into cocoons when he sees your blings morphing, if so, just run back and get your free advantage, if not, you can potentially sneak in some suicides on drones, since they won't have a spine when you 15h. There should be no reason for them to even out eco when you have a bling nest and they dont, they should feel scared and have to make more lings than you.
Yeah but being aggressive means you're investing in units, and not drones. |
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| evilm0nkey May 31 2012 19:09. Posts 52 | Profile # |
On May 31 2012 08:04 romelako wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 17:47 evilm0nkey wrote:
I have a few ladder points less than you but ZvZ is probably my best MU and i feel i have a good understanding of the early phase. Also i always 15 hatch.
I like to get speed asap (delaying it a little if he gets agressive) and a baneling nest. Take gas before pool if i know he is 15 hatching, gas right after pool if he is speedling expanding. In case of heavy agression, cancel gas and take it after you defended first or second wave.
The speed gives you map control / scouting information (is he droning, quick roaches?) and i can pressure a little (while still droning) with banelings if his nat is badly defended or even go all in if he is very greedy. During this pressure / contain, i like to take a third while denying his.
Banelings also allow for a larva-effective defense in case he goes mass ling after 15 hatching himself and they are great to defend vs banelings as well.
Get 2 gasses and +1 missile after taking third.
I feel the player who gets roaches first without getting agressive usually sets himself behind. Because if you build only few roaches, i can just drone and defend with few zerglings in case you move out. Also you can still die to mass lings which is the most frustrating thing ever.
I usually build my roach warren as soon as i see roaches from the enemy or after taking my third in order to be able to defend from 2 base raoch timings, as they are really strong. Dont try to take / hold a third vs this. Its very important to scout a lot for this.
Vs muta you will be able to deny his third for ever and drone up, vs roach its hard to give a general receipe i think.
I've found that investing in ling speed then shortly after getting a baneling nest evens out my economy with my opponents. And sometimes I don't even use the baneling nest because my opponent decided to get greedy and not try to put forth heavy ling aggression. I think with proper defense you can utilizes roaches, and it'll help maintain that economic lead. But thanks for your post!
Well, imagine i build only 6 lings and see your going roach for defense. This will allow me to build a round of drones before getting roaches myself. I dont see how this is good for your economic lead.
I feel going for quick roaches sets you behind if the opponent is not getting agressive. On the other hand, banelings allow for a very quick effective defense without even costing larva.
Staying a little longer on ling+baneling allows for more reactive play. And this includes getting agressive to punish greedy players. If you want to play safe using units that do not allow for agression, you will fall behind to a greedy player.
Also, if you go roaches it will be impossible to defend a third vs mass lings, thus staying on ling+bane allows you to get a faster third. I forgot to mention this but it is probably the most important aspect. |
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| romelako United States. May 31 2012 19:19. Posts 370 | Profile Blog # |
On May 31 2012 19:09 evilm0nkey wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 08:04 romelako wrote:
On May 30 2012 17:47 evilm0nkey wrote:
I have a few ladder points less than you but ZvZ is probably my best MU and i feel i have a good understanding of the early phase. Also i always 15 hatch.
I like to get speed asap (delaying it a little if he gets agressive) and a baneling nest. Take gas before pool if i know he is 15 hatching, gas right after pool if he is speedling expanding. In case of heavy agression, cancel gas and take it after you defended first or second wave.
The speed gives you map control / scouting information (is he droning, quick roaches?) and i can pressure a little (while still droning) with banelings if his nat is badly defended or even go all in if he is very greedy. During this pressure / contain, i like to take a third while denying his.
Banelings also allow for a larva-effective defense in case he goes mass ling after 15 hatching himself and they are great to defend vs banelings as well.
Get 2 gasses and +1 missile after taking third.
I feel the player who gets roaches first without getting agressive usually sets himself behind. Because if you build only few roaches, i can just drone and defend with few zerglings in case you move out. Also you can still die to mass lings which is the most frustrating thing ever.
I usually build my roach warren as soon as i see roaches from the enemy or after taking my third in order to be able to defend from 2 base raoch timings, as they are really strong. Dont try to take / hold a third vs this. Its very important to scout a lot for this.
Vs muta you will be able to deny his third for ever and drone up, vs roach its hard to give a general receipe i think.
I've found that investing in ling speed then shortly after getting a baneling nest evens out my economy with my opponents. And sometimes I don't even use the baneling nest because my opponent decided to get greedy and not try to put forth heavy ling aggression. I think with proper defense you can utilizes roaches, and it'll help maintain that economic lead. But thanks for your post!
Well, imagine i build only 6 lings and see your going roach for defense. This will allow me to build a round of drones before getting roaches myself. I dont see how this is good for your economic lead. I feel going for quick roaches sets you behind if the opponent is not getting agressive. On the other hand, banelings allow for a very quick effective defense without even costing larva. Staying a little longer on ling+baneling allows for more reactive play. And this includes getting agressive to punish greedy players. If you want to play safe using units that do not allow for agression, you will fall behind to a greedy player. Also, if you go roaches it will be impossible to defend a third vs mass lings, thus staying on ling+bane allows you to get a faster third. I forgot to mention this but it is probably the most important aspect.
I think there comes, though, a certain point where mass ling is going to be ineffective against a clump of roaches, especially if they're +1. And I wouldn't dare take a fast 3rd unless I had a solid amount of roaches. |
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| Sapp Poland. May 31 2012 22:35. Posts 173 | Profile # |
* What's better? Going for faster tech than your opponent or trying to get an economic lead?
-there is no answer. Tech advantage (in my opinion) is slightly harder to play with, because you need spot on muta micro or smart fungals etc.
* How do you take advantage of a faster lair tech? Roach speed gets me there quicker but offers no positional advantage because I'm attacking into my opponent. Seems like a faster 3rd is viable.
-faster 3rd is flat out better than roach speed. But lair is bigger that roach speed, isn't it? 
* What are appropriate gas timings when opening roach?
-I don't know, sorry. I never open roach. You shuld try sometime. Fun!
* When is it appropriate to all-in?
-everytime you are able to spot some kind of a "tell", fast lair from less than enough spins, fast 4 gases taken, more than 16 drones at natural mineral line, etc. Problem is, that if you like to be roach-passive, you probably will not be able to scout that "tells" so often.
* What am I doing wrong in my replays (if anything) that's throwing away my economic lead by opening 15h?
-first game, metalopolis, you overdroned, ALOT. You shuld die to that bust but he blown his blings on your hathery, rofl.
My friend, If you have 15+ drones more than your opponent before 10 minute mark, you shuld increse your "greed medicine" 
-game two, Daybreak, you overdroned, ALOT. but this time you died to that first push. also, If you go two evo you need that 4th gaser made earlier. 3 gas gasers are just enought to support two base roach.
-game three, ohana, was actually funny, you overdroned, ALOT ^.^' but in this game your opponent also overdroned, ALOT! so you end up even. This game you lost because you couldn't get better position with your roaches even when deffending.
All You need to do, is to have an overlord behind your opponent mineral line at natural expansion. Count his saturation from time to time, and keep few drones more. Thats all.
gl |
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| romelako United States. June 01 2012 16:21. Posts 370 | Profile Blog # |
On May 31 2012 22:35 Sapp wrote: * What's better? Going for faster tech than your opponent or trying to get an economic lead? -there is no answer. Tech advantage (in my opinion) is slightly harder to play with, because you need spot on muta micro or smart fungals etc. * How do you take advantage of a faster lair tech? Roach speed gets me there quicker but offers no positional advantage because I'm attacking into my opponent. Seems like a faster 3rd is viable. -faster 3rd is flat out better than roach speed. But lair is bigger that roach speed, isn't it? * What are appropriate gas timings when opening roach? -I don't know, sorry. I never open roach. You shuld try sometime. Fun! * When is it appropriate to all-in? -everytime you are able to spot some kind of a "tell", fast lair from less than enough spins, fast 4 gases taken, more than 16 drones at natural mineral line, etc. Problem is, that if you like to be roach-passive, you probably will not be able to scout that "tells" so often. * What am I doing wrong in my replays (if anything) that's throwing away my economic lead by opening 15h? -first game, metalopolis, you overdroned, ALOT. You shuld die to that bust but he blown his blings on your hathery, rofl. My friend, If you have 15+ drones more than your opponent before 10 minute mark, you shuld increse your "greed medicine" -game two, Daybreak, you overdroned, ALOT. but this time you died to that first push. also, If you go two evo you need that 4th gaser made earlier. 3 gas gasers are just enought to support two base roach. -game three, ohana, was actually funny, you overdroned, ALOT ^.^' but in this game your opponent also overdroned, ALOT! so you end up even. This game you lost because you couldn't get better position with your roaches even when deffending. All You need to do, is to have an overlord behind your opponent mineral line at natural expansion. Count his saturation from time to time, and keep few drones more. Thats all. gl
Thank you very much for your analysis.
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