Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Chat
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web ClientTeamSpeak 3 (43 users) | |
|
| Fluid Canada. May 30 2012 23:44. Posts 132 | Profile # |
On May 30 2012 23:36 derpinator wrote:
Do you have cloak in the first attack?
No I never get it, it uses too much gas and it's useless since zerg has spores and overseer. But zergs don't know that so they always make some overseers just in case. |
|
|
| schmutttt Australia. May 30 2012 23:47. Posts 1589 | Profile # |
Unless the Zerg doesn't prepare for the first two banshees then you are not going to beat anyone above platinum with this build. A PDD will lose all energy in less than 5 seconds if it is over spores.
Stick to Namchirs build if you want to 1 base. |
|
|
| Fluid Canada. May 30 2012 23:54. Posts 132 | Profile # |
On May 30 2012 23:47 schmutttt wrote:
A PDD will lose all energy in less than 5 seconds if it is over spores.
It's true that pdd doesn't last very long but its usually enoug time to kill a spore and a queen or two. Although it's much better to target the spore and then the hatchery asap, and you should have enough time to kill it. (a pdd takes in 10 shots so that gives you 2 or 3 voleys for free which is enough to kill a spore.
You can also go 2 ravens 4 banshee so you get 2 pdd (instead of 1 raven 5 banshees). Of course the angle of attack is important too, try to attack where only 1 spore can hit, there's no way the zerg can cover all the spots with spores and if he does then he is losing way too many drones and minerals early on and he won't have mutas/infestor in time which makes the allin even more effective. |
|
|
| MstrJinbo United States. May 31 2012 00:50. Posts 780 | Profile # |
On May 30 2012 17:35 Fluid wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 17:27 naggerNZ wrote:
I get a strong feeling that this would just get crushed by any 2base Lair build, and I think good luck holding a roach/baneling all-in. It's not like you can really hide the fact you're going 2port Banshee for very long, and there's no way in hell you'll be able to afford stim at any decent timing with all this gas going into starports and banshees.
Most zergs don't allin, they get a 3rd base, you can use a scan to check if they're massing roches and banes or you can just leave an scv at the 3rd to see if they take it. You're right about the stim part that's one thing about this build is that you need to not lose (too many) marines to banelings or else your banshees are sitting ducks for mutas. You can do this by splitting the marines well, trageting banes with banshees, and sacrificing scvs on banelings. Here are two replays that show the attack: http://www.2shared.com/file/g2UsBNM2/two_replays.html
What zerg in their right mind would take a third when 1) you are going 2 port banshee 2.) you are doing a 1 base allin. Most would probably tech to either muta or infestor off 2 base. |
|
|
| Clazziquai10 Singapore. May 31 2012 01:28. Posts 930 | Profile Blog # |
1) You suggest a 2 port banshee build that goes depot-rax-no gas-OC-depot. That doesnt sound optimal to me.
2) Can you really support 5 rax and 2 ports on 1 base?
3) I don't understand this statement: "the extra cc is just to get more minerals faster". I really don't.
4) What league are you in?
5) I can't download the replays.
Oh and btw, any strat that suggests expanding only when your main has dried up sounds bronze to me. |
|
|
| Rassy Netherlands. May 31 2012 01:49. Posts 1504 | Profile # |
Its designed as an all in, so off course there is no point in expanding. Going all in AND expanding would be bronze league.
With 2 oc,s you should be able to support 5 rax and 2 ports on 1 base (though its verry tight and maybe sometimes your building idle)
The cc is to get more minerals faster. You get double mules and more mineral income.
I like this all in and will definatly try it.
A banshee beats a queen 1 vs 1 so zerg does need to have 3 queens AT THE SAME SPOT to be able to defend the first attack without taking to much damage, or a spore
Most zergs only have 2 queens and one of them is at the natural, even zergs with 3 queens wont have them all at the same hatch, queens are slow and often you are able to just kill 2 queens with your banshees.
The extra oc and mass marines as support for the final attack abuses the strong points of terran to the max and make this a pretty strong all in.Last edit: 2012-05-31 01:52:06 |
|
|
| Rassy Netherlands. May 31 2012 01:51. Posts 1504 | Profile # |
| double sry Last edit: 2012-05-31 01:51:34 |
|
|
| Reuental United States. May 31 2012 02:00. Posts 367 | Profile # |
On May 31 2012 01:49 Rassy wrote:
Its designed as an all in, so off course there is no point in expanding. Going all in AND expanding would be bronze league.
Not necessarily, if you are going to build a CC you might as well reveal it so the zerg is off his toes when the all ins happen. If you stay on 1 base any zerg is going to have defenses to prepare for it easily, because what possibly are you going to be doing staying on 1 base for long. A all in sucks if its obvious, and your all in is obvious. |
| |
|
| padfoota Taiwan. May 31 2012 02:02. Posts 1062 | Profile Blog # |
can you upload the replays to drop sc instead of 2shared, itll be much easier for us to download (i cant go on 2shared)
Im having a rather hard time reading about a 1 base all in that involves 2 orbitals and no expand -_-Last edit: 2012-05-31 02:02:46 |
| |
|
| NoisyNinja United States. May 31 2012 02:18. Posts 982 | Profile # |
On May 30 2012 17:31 MrMcIntosh wrote:
Just one question, roughly what time will your expansion go down and does this build include scv production and orbital conversion, bunkers, etc?
Its a 1 base all in. There is no expansion |
| | The world can go fuck itself. I'm not taking out my headphones. |
|
|
| Blazinghand United States. May 31 2012 02:31. Posts 12203 | Profile Blog # |
On May 31 2012 02:18 NoisyNinja wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 17:31 MrMcIntosh wrote:
Just one question, roughly what time will your expansion go down and does this build include scv production and orbital conversion, bunkers, etc?
Its a 1 base all in. There is no expansion
He actually DOES make a CC in his build order:
supply
barracks
supply (to wall off, complete it once racks is done)
orbital
refinery x2
factory
starportx2
tech lab x2
cc into orbital
barracksx4
On May 30 2012 17:40 Fluid wrote:
This is a 1-base all-in (the extra cc is just to get more minerals faster), the only time I expand is when I run out of minerals in the main.
But he keeps the CC in his main to, as it seems, double mule. |
| | When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back. |
|
|
| LtCalley United States. May 31 2012 02:57. Posts 85 | Profile # |
| if u gotta 2 port do it namhcir style....proxy 11/11 into 2 gas into 2 port...do dmg with 11/11 and follow up with cloak banshees that they have absolutely no answer for. |
| | "No matter how good you are at something, there's always about a million people better than you" - Homer Simpson |
|
|
| Fluid Canada. May 31 2012 04:44. Posts 132 | Profile # |
On May 31 2012 02:02 padfoota wrote:
can you upload the replays to drop sc instead of 2shared, itll be much easier for us to download (i cant go on 2shared)
Im having a rather hard time reading about a 1 base all in that involves 2 orbitals and no expand -_-
Ok, they've been uploaded there.
http://drop.sc/188834
http://drop.sc/188833 |
|
|
 Belial88 United States. May 31 2012 11:01. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
I don't see this as viable at masters+. The only merit of double starport on 1 base, is 2 starport banshee timing, and you completely lose that with your build order. Everything else in the build isn't really that good - if you make 2 starport banshee, if you don't kill at least a hatchery or more than 15 drones, Zerg is going to be able to easily make enough ling/bane to crush your 30 marines without tanks, stim, or medivacs.
It just sounds like you are abusing the poor macro of lower level players who can't pump out enough lings due to missed injects, blocks, and not droning at all.
It's definitely viable (if not really outdated) to do double starport banshee all-ins, but you are losing the most critical element of the build, the timing, by your goofy gas timings. Just go gas first, or double gas, most zergs don't drone scout in ZvT anymore (at least at pro play - personally I drone scout still).
Also, as just standard play, I'm at 50+ supply and have an evolution chamber finished by 7:11, so your banshees come wayyy too late, even if I had no idea what you were doing or if you even expanded, I could reactively get spores and queens when your banshees moved out on the map.
Adjust your build so you get the starports asap, because that's the most important part of this build. You need to have those 2 banshees in zergs base, not clearing watch towers (seriously? you built a factory, just make a single hellion - or just send your marines, most zergs don't make more than 2 lings until 50+ supply anyways, and you CAN fly around the watch towers), as soon as possible.
Feel free to msg me on b.net belial.869 if you want to test it out, or refine it though, but I don't see anything special in this build. It just works at a low level where zergs aren't macro'ing well enough to just beat it blindly with macro - adjust it so the banshees come out asap so you can beat zergs who are actually good, provided they don't know what's coming (because that's the ONLY way it will work).
watching rep
Last edit: 2012-05-31 11:04:56 |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
|
|
| Belial88 United States. May 31 2012 11:20. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
1. Don't scout at 9. That's wayyyy too early. You need to think about what you are trying to learn with your worker scout. There's nothing you need to know that early, and most terrans don't worker scout at all. I'm not sure if you need to worker scout to deal with 6 pools, but you definitely don't need to send a worker that early, unless you were maybe trying to go CC first and wanted to be safe to first. Sending your SCV after building the rax is a more standard timing, it will see the lings out so you can plant a depot to block the ramp in time.
This is a pretty big deal too. You are already planning to all-in - why do you need to worker scout? What do you care if zerg takes gas or not? You are doing a 1 base all-in, you would be happy if zerg tried to all-in you. Cut the worker scout, or at least do it at a more standard time (15).
2. this zerg is just missing every drone lol. every drone he makes is 10-20 minerals late. he doesnt even make a 13th drone until his 11-12 drones finish. You really need to play someone higher level to 'prove' your build.
3. Why are you spending so much money to block his natural? First off, you WANT zerg to expand - you are all-inning right? Why in the world, would you ever do anything, in the slightest, to provoke the zerg to say "fuck it, im attacking"?!?!? No dude, you want this zerg to be as greedy as humanly possible. Please, don't do something so silly. Secondly, this is just delaying your build by a TON. You didn't list in your build order that you were building a free engineering bay after rax. It's a big difference. I mean, why not just make 2 rax in your build before gas? Because you are doing the same thing here essentially. Make no mistake, just because you cancel it, there's a huge cost. That's 125 minerals. You realize if you didn't do the engineering bay block, you could have built 2 gas about a minute earlier? The problem is TIMING - although it's 'free' in the sense you get that money back (actually only 75% of it), it's COSTLY in the sense that it's money you can't use at the moment. So making that engineering bay, and cancelling it, both have the exact same cost in that everything make afterwards, is delayed by 125 minerals, UNTIL you cancel that engineering bay.
So what did this ebay accomplish for you?
1. It encourages zerg to build his pool first and make more units rather than play greedy, which is the opposite of what you want.
2. It delays your build, which is an all-in TIMING attack that is now going to be later (and you are delaying yourself much more than zerg is delayed, by the way)
3. It delays Zerg's natural, but doesn't hurt his econ as much as it hurts yours (theres a reason you never see pro terrans do this).
4. You lost about 100 minerals because you weren't mining due to a lost worker that you sent to scout out (about 150+ if you think that terran shoudln't worker scout at all) - again, further delaying your TIMING all-in.
I really don't think it's worth it what you did, and I think you need to understand better the consequences of your actions.
3. You miss workers at 2:05. We know your plat, we're here to talk about your build, not your play, but just saying. That's a huge error to make at the 10:00 mark, much less 2:05. This may impact how well your build would really work though, and says something about who you play.
4. Why are you building a bunker at the high ground? Just curious. maybe you should make it on the low ground to trick zerg into thinking you expanded, that would really make your timing much better. The more you convince zerg that you are playing normal, the better. Maybe you could wall off on the low ground instead?
Anyways, if I see a bunker in the main of a Terran, that would be 100%, absolute, dead, giveaway, that:
1. He isn't expanding to his natural, otherwise the defense would be there, since a bunker in the main is useless to prevent an expo
2. You aren't massing army, because you clearly think you need the bunker to survive even an attack from a zerg who expanded whil you are on 1 base, so that must mean 100% you are...
3. going banshees. Must spores, ezpz.
That's all. Build the bunker on the low ground, or don't build it at all.
6. Your 21 depot was way too early. Your starports could have come a good 20-30 seconds earlier if your macro was better and your build was cleaned up. You aren't the first person to go double starport, look up reps for it in tournament play. Ask in the terran help me thread.
7. that zerg was absolutely terrible, he never made drones, was supply blocked every single time. you need to ask at least a low masters to test this on.
8. cut out the expansion, make more rax or something. i mean, if you constanmtly produced off the 5 rax you had, and 2 starports, i'm sure you would find it hard to utilize all of them. cut down the rax and expo, macro better, have more shit.
9. Or just expand instead of massing rax. I mean, you are either going to win when you kill him with the 2 starport banshee, or lose if it kills less than 20 drones or a hatchery. You could expand if you haven't closed out the game, or expand if you have. Whatever. your additional rax really are meanignless, you've either won the game with your all-in timing or not.
10. the ravens are just sooo terribly useless. make more banshees, maybe get cloak instead.Last edit: 2012-05-31 11:23:01 |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
|
|
| MstrJinbo United States. May 31 2012 11:35. Posts 780 | Profile # |
Attack 2. Get 1/2 ravens and 2-3 more banshees (you can get just 1 raven if you want to attack faster). You should have 1 raven 5 banshees for your second attack. Since you built raven/banshee after your first two banshees, your raven should have enough energy for 1 pdd (or 2 pdds if you made a second one after).
Purpose: Deny an important structure using pdd to protect banshees from spores and queens. I usually go for the natural hatch and creep tumours, but if the zerg has bad building placement try to pick off any important buildings such as roach warren or baneling nest.
Timing: For me this occurs at ~10min 30
From watching your replay your attack timing is wrong. You leave your base at 10:30 but you still need to cross the map and you don't actually start attacking until after 11 min. these 30 seconds are critical. 11 min is more or less the time you need to start worrying about the lair tech. In this case mutas can pop at around 11 min. If the zerg hits this timing and gets mutas at 11 min it kills this build outright. This is why it will work against low level players but you can't expect diamond, masters or grandmasters to do the same. On the replay on Korhal, the zerg was just really bad and didn't have a clear idea how to react to the banshees. On the Antiga game the zerg was too greedy and took a third when he shouldn't have.
|
|
|
| Prev 1 2 All | |
|
|
|
| |
|
Sidebar Settings...
|
Store
