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| nath United States. May 31 2012 02:37. Posts 1315 | Profile Blog # |
I have seen this build very rarely but its been peppered in pro games throughout the history of sc2. The time that made me think of this build again was seeing Thorzain do it a couple times (recently vs Idra, and another time a while back (except with ebay+turrets along with push that time)) both on Shattered Temple.
I want to hear your feedback on this build, hence [D], but i have included my own thoughts in spoilers below.
right now im trying to figure out the BO and foster a discussion on its merits and mindset on both Z and T sides
there is a build on liquipedia that is VERY similar except it pushes a bit later with stim, using the first techlab for rax and not swapping back to fac.
Reactor Hellion/ Three Tank Push (TvZ)
<space reserved for supply counts of my variation/thorzain vs idra variation>
<vods>
<good/relevant responses>
+ Show Spoiler [similarBO] + 10 - Supply Depot 12 - Barracks (1) 13 - Refinery (1) 15 - Orbital Command Upgrade 15 - Marines (to 2) + Supply Depot 18 - Factory 20 - Reactor on Barracks 21 - Command Center (2) 22 - Supply Depot 23 - Hellions (to 4) + Tech Lab on Barracks 28 - Stimpack + Supply Depot 35 - Orbital Command Upgrade Reactor (2) on Factory > Build Barracks (2) on Reactor (1) > Switch Barracks (3) to Reactor (2) @100% Reactor (2) - Tech Lab (2) on Factory > Siege Tanks Next 75 Mineral - Refinery (2) @100% Siege Tank (3) - Move out
+ Show Spoiler [nutshell] +at 8:00: have a large number of unupgraded marines, 2 tanks with siege mode, 1 tank 80-90% complete, 2 CC's, 2 gases, saturated main, saturating natural (~10-12scv at nat when i push). ideal outcomes in order: kill greedy zerg - most common below Diamond. punish greedy zerg, use advantage to win - aim for this. damage or trade evenly with normal zerg - must transition into third cc->ebays->gases->160 food push? if there is a follow-up 2 base timing that is good, please share  defend allins/low eco zerg with siege, counter and win - common on NA ladder  how to get there: reactor hellion CC swap with rax rax builds TL fac builds 4 hellions start 2nd rax as first pair of hellions are building->reactor reactor fac swaps with TL rax start tanks + 4 marine production get siege with 100 spare gas while constantly making tanks push at 2 tanks, 3rd almost out
+ Show Spoiler [my description of the build] +you go reactor hellion before expand, the oldschool/'inferior' variant (as compared to FE->reactor hellion) -- gas on 13, fac, reactor after 1 or 2 marines, take gas off for cc while fac+reactor are building and you have 25 gas.
swap and make a techlab on barracks. in addition to making the swap for tanks faster, this could trick the zerg into thinking a delayed hellion+stim timing is incoming, or a marauder+hellion is incoming. you add a 2nd rax when you can, depending on your cc timing, as your 1st pair of hellions are building i believe (or around that time). add reactor to 2nd rax as soon as its done.
make 4 hellions, scout/try to deny creep/keep them alive. probably the most important thing to use these for is to scout an allin. set up depot wall in front of natural either way, bunker behind depots if u sniff an allin.
after the 2nd pair of hellions leave the fac, lift and swap with TL rax. 2nd rax's reactor should be finishing up. pump 4 unupgraded marines + 1 tank per production cycle, DO NOT GET SUPPLY BLOCKED OR YOU LOSE get siege when you have 100 spare gas (between 2-3 tanks).
move out at 3 tanks, i played vs ai, i move out around 8:00 with 2 tanks and several unupgraded marines (70-80ish supply total), and a 3rd tank shortly following. as i get or find ladder reps ill post.
if he has done an allin, or has otherwise droned lightly, do not push, either defend and counter, or transition into 3 base play with cc->ebays->gases Last edit: 2012-05-31 02:38:31 |
| | Founder of Flow Enterprises, LLC http://flow-enterprises.com/ |
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| ShaneFeit May 31 2012 03:05. Posts 92 | Profile # |
| I think this build is probably good on maps where the Zerg doesnt get a free scout of your army as soon as it leaves the base, so daybreak, koral, cloud kingdom there is really no point because he will see the push so far ahead. But on the other maps I guess if you an deny and vision with the hellions it could work well. Problem is Zergs have such good creep spread now that you cant really seige up close enough to do damage before they have enough to overrun you. |
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| Severus_ May 31 2012 03:15. Posts 740 | Profile Blog # |
| This has been beaten alot of times since it came out. Ling,Infestor crushes it, even nowdays zerg try to build 25~30 zerglings to kill your hellions when you go for reactor FE and gain back mapcontrol. Tanks are not efficient enough in small numbers to battle zergling pumps. Also if the z guy decides to go for 2base play with macro hatch and mutas you will be pined down in your base. My point is that this builds don't work anymore try to play builds that pressure get mapcontrol and allow you to expand. Also you might have problems with roach,bane-ling allins you need your tanks to be on imba positions + great focus fire. Last edit: 2012-05-31 03:20:35 |
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| ArchAngelSC England. May 31 2012 03:32. Posts 199 | Profile # |
| I cant see this build being good at all. You'll have too few marines with no upgrades and tanks are useless vs lings in that number. Your army would just get rolled as soon as the zerg sees it. You would be better off skipping the marines and going for hellion tank. Aka, mech. |
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| zezamer Finland. May 31 2012 03:37. Posts 1805 | Profile # |
Mass ling with upgrades beats this
Ling Infestor beats this
3 tank pushes are ok vs fast mutas.
Last edit: 2012-05-31 03:40:12 |
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| netherh United Kingdom. May 31 2012 03:51. Posts 269 | Profile Blog # |
| Hmm. MVP did something similar vs Sen on Shattered Temple (close positions!) waaaay back at Blizzcon. Not sure if it would work now: http://drop.sc/51139 |
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| babyToSS May 31 2012 03:54. Posts 233 | Profile # |
In the good old days of close positions,T being OP and MVP being in his prime, he had a similar but deadlier build (he never lost a TvZ back then). If you are looking for builds with strong tank+lots of unupgraded marine pushes in the mid-game then this should be your go to build. As maps got bigger and higher level zergs learnt to deal with it, it went out of style in favor of the more popular triple OC builds. However, against lower level (even up to mid masters and higher) players it is still a very deadly timing if executed well.
You open standard reactor hellion expo. Build another reactor on rax, get second factory. Start pumping hellions 3 at a time (maybe 4 if you want to cut marines and put reactor on second fact) off 2 factories while getting tech lab+ another rax. Pressure with stupid amount of hellions but dont lose them. Swap add-ons to get 2 factories with tech labs and 2 raxes with reactor. Start pumping tank+marine and push with about ~3 or 5 (3 tank is a little earlier) siege tanks + stupidly large amount amount of unupgraded marine+hellion make sure to pull 4-6 scvs for building bunkers, repair and tanking lings.
Behind this push you can (a) go all-in behind this by adding even more raxes and spamming 2 base marine tank and exchanging cost effectively till the zerg is worn down or (b) take a third get double tech lab raxes and ebays for bio upgardes asap. If expoing you need to do some damage otherwise you will fall behind in tech and will lose map control to a zerg rushing hive. If executed well though it is quite strong and the all-in version is probably an auto-win on smaller/close position maps.
Edit: Wanted to add that the reason why this build is so good is because of the really early double fact tank at the cost of delaying bio upgrades. Day 9 also did a daily on this build back then. You can look it up for the finer details. Its still stupid strong on some old school Blizz maps like Xel Naga caverns.Last edit: 2012-05-31 03:58:40 |
| | babyToSS here! Can u go easy on me plzzz? |
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| KirA_TheGreaT France. May 31 2012 04:46. Posts 163 | Profile # |
| I saw thorzain going for reactor hellion against sheth on antiga at redbull lan... he still made a third CC at the ~5-6 minutes mark, but i'm not sure what was the point of doing so besides having 6 hellions quicker than the delayed version with 1 rax expo. |
| | kira high master terran http://www.twitch.tv/reconkira All hail to Prime :) |
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