On June 02 2012 22:43 Azzur wrote: Obesity is a huge problem in America - there is no point in denying it. It is a serious issue because it places huge health costs on the nation.
I agree with the OP, prohibition doesn't work.
However, the real issue is that healthy people shouldn't have to subsidise the poor choices made by kids and poor parenting. The govt needs to stop funding obesity related illness and we'll see how fast the problem disappears.
That's no solution at all. In fact, it would make everything worse because those who know their shit wouldn't care about it anymore.
If a, non-obese and totally good looking, bodybuilder in my social circle abuses certain drugs to look more buff and I don't do anything about it - I'm partially responsible for him having a heart attack and the money I pay for medicare should be used to help him.
If an obese person in my social circle is eating unhealthy shit and I don't do anything about it - I'm ALSO partially responsible for it and the money I pay for medicare should also be used to help him. That's the whole fucking point of living in a society.
If you aim to isolate costs for certain diseases based on certain habits you start something that is impossible to do correctly without total surveillance and that will also isolate people as individuals. If you're not forced to give a fuck about people around you (sad enough that the only way to get you to do this is your purse), you simply won't give a fuck. The only thing that comes from not caring is making the problems worse.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
micronesia United States. June 02 2012 23:01. Posts 19293
I personally don't like the idea of vending machines or private, for-profit food services in a public school. We force children to go to public school, so we are responsible for their well being. We shouldn't expose them to the moneymaking whims of businessmen.
On the other hand, when school food is run 100% by the school, you often have terrible quality (not that you don't with private companies necessarily).
Thanks Epoxide for all your help. Without you I never would have figured out how to install that boost gauge into my car.
This entire thread is an embarrassment. The idea that someone can limit your intake of something as innocuous as a fucking soft drink is absurd.
There aren't people dropping dead all over the world from soft drink consumption. It's not some kind of epidemic. You think there's a weight problem in the US? Then ban chairs, or at least chairs above a certain comfort threshold. People can't sit down, people lose weight, right? I mean, we can force them to do whatever we want, so let's just come up with things we can do to make them lose weight. Let's have animals chase them. Either they run, and live, and lose weight...Or they die and the health care system doesn't have to care for them anyway. Ideas, people!
You geniuses are targeting a part of the problem that isn't one. Coke isn't the issue. You could ban coke completely and the nation's weight would hardly change, kids included. It's the entire diet, guys, it's not a drink. I'm overweight, and I drink about one can of soft drink per week. Think that's my problem, geniuses? Think that one can is giving me diabetes and adding dozens of pounds? Of course not. You're being naive and stupid.
Nevermind that the idea that coke is so horrid for you is one that is blown completely out of proportion. The way people talk about it you'd think it was worse than smoking, obviously it isn't. But the idea that vending machines are in the school, but can't be bought during lunch...is stupid. We had a similar rule, you know what we did? We just bought the damn thing in the morning.
On June 02 2012 23:01 micronesia wrote: I personally don't like the idea of vending machines or private, for-profit food services in a public school. We force children to go to public school, so we are responsible for their well being. We shouldn't expose them to the kinds of decisions they will have to make for the rest of their lives.
On the other hand, when school food is run 100% by the school, you often have terrible quality (not that you don't with private companies necessarily).
Let me change this for you. Because drinking chocolate milk until your 18 is an awesome way to have lunch.
It's not like any decent alternatives to coke or whatever are given. Why couldn't I have tea with my lunch?
On June 02 2012 21:11 Fenrax wrote: The OP is biased as hell and provides wrong logic. It is not an example against prohibitive politics because prohibitive politics are not bad as a general rule. they are for example nessecary against heroine or meth. You can discuss if Soda warrants such a policy but simply stating that prohibitive politics are always bad it not worthy of an OP.
I actually think it is a good idea. Fat kids might easily have irrecoverable health problems before they become smart enough to make a choice against delicious addictive shit like soda pops. If you remember the 5 year old that smoke din Indonesia or somewhere, it caused a huge uproar. Though it is really not much different from the fat German or American kid that eats Cheeseburgers with Cola for lunch and Pizza with Donuts for dinner.
Also, tons of studies show that once you are overweight, the way back to normal a body, is much much much harder than just maintaining a normal body. I literally think, that having an overweight child, is downright child abuse - and should be helped by mandatory education of the parants. Not only is it unhealthy, expensive to society and dangerous as hell, it also severely inhibbits the childs ability to function socially. Children bully each other. Fact of life. And if your child is obese, he has a giant bullseye on his back right from the get go. He is also gonna have a hard time participating in activities such as sports, and will have a harder time with the ladies when that time comes. Terrible!
Schools serving anything to the matter even further along is just sick, and should be banned to hell and back
On June 02 2012 23:01 micronesia wrote: I personally don't like the idea of vending machines or private, for-profit food services in a public school. We force children to go to public school, so we are responsible for their well being. We shouldn't expose them to the moneymaking whims of businessmen.
On the other hand, when school food is run 100% by the school, you often have terrible quality (not that you don't with private companies necessarily).
Who is "we"? Personally, I see it as everyone in a society. That includes the schools and their staff, but also parents and other authority figures.
I can only speak for myself here (and I do understand that schools in the US are usually bigger and different than over here, my schools had around 1k-1.5k kids max), but all the schools I went to were similar when it comes to food/drinks. You usually had the janitor (or sometimes his wife, lol) who sold like backed goods and... well.. let's call it sandwiches (even though our variant is cooler and healthier) and also soft drinks / water / apple spritzer etc.
On top of that there were usually machines which sold the same drinks and a machine for coffee/tea/chocolate milk.
Until like 6th-7th grade I brought stuff from home, in 8th-10th grade the sodas were totally cool and everyone drank those, from like 11th-13th grade I switched to coffee and water again.
The problem isn't what's being sold in schools, the problem is the attitude you teach kids. If obesity is an actual "epidemic problem" forbidding certain things at schools will change nothing. Proper education (especially educating parents properly) is what counts.
@Felnarion: ♥♥♥
Last edit: 2012-06-02 23:15:35
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
On June 02 2012 23:04 Felnarion wrote: This entire thread is an embarrassment. The idea that someone can limit your intake of something as innocuous as a fucking soft drink is absurd.
There aren't people dropping dead all over the world from soft drink consumption. It's not some kind of epidemic. You think there's a weight problem in the US? Then ban chairs, or at least chairs above a certain comfort threshold. People can't sit down, people lose weight, right? I mean, we can force them to do whatever we want, so let's just come up with things we can do to make them lose weight. Let's have animals chase them. Either they run, and live, and lose weight...Or they die and the health care system doesn't have to care for them anyway. Ideas, people!
You geniuses are targeting a part of the problem that isn't one. Coke isn't the issue. You could ban coke completely and the nation's weight would hardly change, kids included. It's the entire diet, guys, it's not a drink. I'm overweight, and I drink about one can of soft drink per week. Think that's my problem, geniuses? Think that one can is giving me diabetes and adding dozens of pounds? Of course not. You're being naive and stupid.
Nevermind that the idea that coke is so horrid for you is one that is blown completely out of proportion. The way people talk about it you'd think it was worse than smoking, obviously it isn't. But the idea that vending machines are in the school, but can't be bought during lunch...is stupid. We had a similar rule, you know what we did? We just bought the damn thing in the morning.
I imagine the policy is part of maintaining a healthy school lunch. They are adressing the entire problem, this measure is just part of it. Just as high fructose corn syrup intake is part of the causes of obesity in the US. It is obviously not true for every individual, but statistical correlations never are.
Check the stacks of sugar cubes next to the soft drinks. That's obviously not healthy eating and it should be discouraged in schools. The fact that that's even up for discussion astounds me. By this 'prohibition is bad' logic, should we also be selling cigarettes in schools? I mean, the kids just have to make better personal choices right?
Everyone knows how much sugar is in soft drinks. Everyone. Including six year olds. Also everyone knows how bad lots of sugar is.
It's just that no one cares about it. And that's not fixed by forbidding certain items.
Edit: To the comparison to cigarettes.. at my old school cigarettes were sold about 2min from the school area and we had a smoking area for people at 16+. Right when most of the people in class turned 16, that was one of the coolest places to be. Like 40% smoked. When we finished school about 5 years later I remember... 2-3 smokers out of like 120 people. Why? Because smoking wasn't cool anymore.
Last edit: 2012-06-02 23:21:41
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
VTPerfect United States. June 02 2012 23:20. Posts 486
social issue threads are the funniest to read. the smartest people will always get what they want one way or another. tax soda too much? they can manufacture it themselves. ban soda? they will smuggle it from home. firewalls and net nannies? easily circumvented. I never learned anything from school in fact i would say it was a waste of my time because i could have learned much more faster just sitting on the internet. not that i didn't make school fun for myself of course. I mean good on the average society for trying to police themselves but i just think L-O-L.
micronesia United States. June 02 2012 23:20. Posts 19293
On June 02 2012 23:01 micronesia wrote: I personally don't like the idea of vending machines or private, for-profit food services in a public school. We force children to go to public school, so we are responsible for their well being. We shouldn't expose them to the kinds of decisions they will have to make for the rest of their lives.
On the other hand, when school food is run 100% by the school, you often have terrible quality (not that you don't with private companies necessarily).
Let me change this for you. Because drinking chocolate milk until your 18 is an awesome way to have lunch.
It's not like any decent alternatives to coke or whatever are given. Why couldn't I have tea with my lunch?
I don't recall saying anything about chocolate milk or alternatives to coke, or precluding tea...
What I do find is that people often argue we shouldn't only provide students with healthy food in schools because it's not an authentic way to prepare them for the challenges of keeping healthy after graduation. Usually the people arguing this stand to make money from the sale of unhealthy food to students. Usually, students in those schools make the unhealthy choice every day (cookies, soda, and chips for lunch daily) and never actually learn anything.
Felnarion, I think you are selling short the problem with sustained soda drinking. I also think some people demonize soda too much. You and I both drink just a little bit of soda, which is ok.
Thanks Epoxide for all your help. Without you I never would have figured out how to install that boost gauge into my car.
On June 02 2012 23:17 r.Evo wrote: Everyone knows how much sugar is in soft drinks. Everyone. Including six year olds. Also everyone knows how bad lots of sugar is.
It's just that no one cares about it. And that's not fixed by forbidding certain items.
No 6 year old knows the concequences of drinking 1000cal/day. Any most parents dont either.
Judicator United States. June 02 2012 23:21. Posts 5710
To the people saying prohibition doesn't work, it actually does. It just leads to these side-effects of illegal distribution of goods which is still by far less common than what was happening. From a public health perspective, Prohibition actually worked extremely well where a number of major health problems all dropped significantly during those years.
Education and other methods maybe more effective in general, but this particular problem isn't as easily handled by those methods.
Also, it's hilarious to see some of the methods being proposed here while calling the current situation paternal.
On June 02 2012 10:18 Xcobidoo wrote: If high schoolers are that desperate for a coke that they'll go that extra mile to get it then it's just plain pathetic more than anything else.
Well if they go that extra mile they will probably lose some weight so I dont see any problem^^
Dekoth United States. June 02 2012 23:24. Posts 489
On June 02 2012 11:09 Dekoth wrote: Prohibition type stuff never works, so pointless meddling of the government.
But Obesity is an epidemic and that is not arguable. If parents are too lazy to control what their kids eat, well something needs to be done. It is pathetic how fat kids are these days. Personally though, they need to implement "Real" gym class requirements again and eliminate this bs where kids can skip it all together.
It is very arguable. Obesity is not a fucking "disease." I have never "caught" obesity from someone by them sneezing on me. People's bodies are different and grow in different ways. I ate nothing but french fries and chips until I was 14, then I actually started eating hamburgers (first time I had ever had meat). I would drink about a six pack of soda a day in my teens. I'm currently 6 foot and weigh about 135lbs.
Anecdotal evidence, I know, but the point being, BODIES ARE DIFFERENT, I just happened to be in a body that society doesn't consider a strain on the eyes. I know plenty of people who are larger than me who eat just as much as I do and a lot healthier than I do and weigh considerably more than I do, to the point where people consider them a part of the "obesity epidemic."
I never said it was a disease. The word epidemic can be applied to more than just diseases. You are correct, bodies are different but the very real reality is people are out of control. Being obese is not acceptable especially if you are young and can do something about it.
To clarify more, I don't think prohibition works. However at the same time Soda machines really need to be removed from schools. Ease of access it part of the problem. Sure while the current kids might spend time going out of their way to get soda, eventually it will stop as those who haven't had easy access won't be as addicted and needing to have that soda. I know for a fact that I drank far more Soda in school than I would of because it was so bloody easy to get. Had it been like it was in my middle school where there were no machines, I likely would of hardly ever drank it. Banning isn't going to work, but making it harder to get too will have effects in the long term.
The next thing that needs to happen is Physical education needs to be brought back. Both the Physical part and the education part. The elimination of playgrounds and PE is just setting our kids up for failure. The reality is that while you may not like it, there were far less fat kids in school when I went than there are currently and the trend is getting worse. Steps need to be taken or we only think healthcare costs are bad now. Every single time I see an extremely fat little kid (almost always with extremely fat parents) I want to punch the parents in the face. There is No excuse for any child (barring medical conditions) under the age of 13 being overweight.
On June 02 2012 23:17 r.Evo wrote: Everyone knows how much sugar is in soft drinks. Everyone. Including six year olds. Also everyone knows how bad lots of sugar is.
It's just that no one cares about it. And that's not fixed by forbidding certain items.
Edit: To the comparison to cigarettes.. at my old school cigarettes were sold about 2min from the school area and we had a smoking area for people at 16+. Right when most of the people in class turned 16, that was one of the coolest places to be. Like 40% smoked. When we finished school about 5 years later I remember... 2-3 smokers out of like 120 people. Why? Because smoking wasn't cool anymore.
So what exactly?
None of that means that unhealthy products should be sold in a place where parents can reasonably expect to leave their kids without them turning into blobs of fat. If schools sell anything, it should be reasonably healthy products. It's not a free marketplace where you get to sell anything you want, and it is perfectly reasonable to impose certain limits on what can be sold.
Yes, you can walk 2 minutes to the nearest supermarket to go get soda or cigarettes, and students always will, but at least in that case the school isn't actively contributing to the problem.
micronesia United States. June 02 2012 23:31. Posts 19293
On June 02 2012 23:27 Derez wrote: Yes, you can walk 2 minutes to the nearest supermarket to go get soda or cigarettes, and students always will, but at least in that case the school isn't actively contributing to the problem.
Some schools have closed campuses so you can't leave for lunch. Others are too far away from stores/restaurants to go buy unhealthy food. In both of those cases, the only way students would eat/drink unhealthy (given a healthy food service within the school) would be if they brought food/soda from home, which is perfectly acceptable to me. Most kids can't plan ahead far enough to bring their homework to school, so most won't go out of their way to bring soda and other crap to school (unless parents arrange it, and yes they are often part of the problem).
Last edit: 2012-06-02 23:32:02
Thanks Epoxide for all your help. Without you I never would have figured out how to install that boost gauge into my car.
On June 02 2012 23:17 r.Evo wrote: Everyone knows how much sugar is in soft drinks. Everyone. Including six year olds. Also everyone knows how bad lots of sugar is.
It's just that no one cares about it. And that's not fixed by forbidding certain items.
Edit: To the comparison to cigarettes.. at my old school cigarettes were sold about 2min from the school area and we had a smoking area for people at 16+. Right when most of the people in class turned 16, that was one of the coolest places to be. Like 40% smoked. When we finished school about 5 years later I remember... 2-3 smokers out of like 120 people. Why? Because smoking wasn't cool anymore.
So what exactly?
None of that means that unhealthy products should be sold in a place where parents can reasonably expect to leave their kids without them turning into blobs of fat. If schools sell anything, it should be reasonably healthy products. It's not a free marketplace where you get to sell anything you want, and it is perfectly reasonable to impose certain limits on what can be sold.
Yes, you can walk 2 minutes to the nearest supermarket to go get soda or cigarettes, and students always will, but at least in that case the school isn't actively contributing to the problem.
That's just being ignorant and hypocritical. The only point of that is that the school can say "Oh, your kid is fat? Oh, well, can't be our problem - see? We're not selling it!"
What about like.. teaching kids to act reasonable around stuff that's not good for them? When I was like 10 I wasn't allowed to drink soft drinks. That's fine. If you'd have done the same to me when I was 16 I would have said "Fuck off" and gotten them anyway. What the adults around me said at that time instead was "Welp. That stuff isn't good for you, just try to compensate with this and that and that, okay?" and that stuff was enforced during meals or family events.
Personally, I'm for treating people who are about to be adults just like that. A 16 year old should be free to drink a soft drink, orange juice, water or coffee at his school. The job of a school (just like the job of parents) should be to teach responsibility, especially about stuff that isn't considered good if you do/eat/drink it in excess.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
On June 02 2012 23:04 Felnarion wrote: This entire thread is an embarrassment. The idea that someone can limit your intake of something as innocuous as a fucking soft drink is absurd.
There aren't people dropping dead all over the world from soft drink consumption. It's not some kind of epidemic. You think there's a weight problem in the US? Then ban chairs, or at least chairs above a certain comfort threshold. People can't sit down, people lose weight, right? I mean, we can force them to do whatever we want, so let's just come up with things we can do to make them lose weight. Let's have animals chase them. Either they run, and live, and lose weight...Or they die and the health care system doesn't have to care for them anyway. Ideas, people!
You geniuses are targeting a part of the problem that isn't one. Coke isn't the issue. You could ban coke completely and the nation's weight would hardly change, kids included. It's the entire diet, guys, it's not a drink. I'm overweight, and I drink about one can of soft drink per week. Think that's my problem, geniuses? Think that one can is giving me diabetes and adding dozens of pounds? Of course not. You're being naive and stupid.
Nevermind that the idea that coke is so horrid for you is one that is blown completely out of proportion. The way people talk about it you'd think it was worse than smoking, obviously it isn't. But the idea that vending machines are in the school, but can't be bought during lunch...is stupid. We had a similar rule, you know what we did? We just bought the damn thing in the morning.
I imagine the policy is part of maintaining a healthy school lunch. They are adressing the entire problem, this measure is just part of it. Just as high fructose corn syrup intake is part of the causes of obesity in the US. It is obviously not true for every individual, but statistical correlations never are.
Check the stacks of sugar cubes next to the soft drinks. That's obviously not healthy eating and it should be discouraged in schools. The fact that that's even up for discussion astounds me. By this 'prohibition is bad' logic, should we also be selling cigarettes in schools? I mean, the kids just have to make better personal choices right?
Interestingly, I have a bottle of diet soda next to me. It lists 0g sugars, and the ingredients list is as follows: Carbonated Water Citric Acid Malic Acid Potassium Citrate Potassium Benzoate Aspartame Gum Acacia Acesulfame Potassium Caffeine "Natural Flavor" Ester Gum Yellow 6 Red 40
It lacks both Sugar and Corn Syrups of any kind. Why? Because it is a diet soda. Would you find any fault in selling this to students? I'm being genuine here. What if we only sold the healthier alternative in schools?
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
micronesia United States. June 02 2012 23:45. Posts 19293
I've heard from multiple sources that diet drinks are bad for you despite having no sugar. I assume this is being researched rigorously even now.
Having diet drinks as a kid is worse than having diet drinks as an adult since you have more years ahead of you for the crap in diet drinks to degrade your health.
Thanks Epoxide for all your help. Without you I never would have figured out how to install that boost gauge into my car.
icystorage Philippines. June 02 2012 23:48. Posts 3704
On June 02 2012 22:54 Undrass wrote: Why would you buy food at school anyway. Where I am from everyone brings food from home, most often 2-3 slices of bread with some cheese, with some tap water.
that's one soggy bread man
Leta for bonjwa | Forever Iris fan | BuGzlToOnl is my hero
Store
micronesia United States. June 02 2012 23:01. Posts 19293![[image loading]](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/05/31/nyregion/BLOOMBERG/BLOOMBERG-blog480.jpg)
